OT: Is Ndamukong Suh really going to be a great NFL Player

Timm Rosenbach

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They said "Big Daddy" Wilkinson was the best defenseive player of the decade and he was a journeyman in the NFL. Glenn Dorsey was supposedly the best player in the 08 draft and he can barely get on the field for the Chiefs. Ryan Sims was supposedly can't miss and managed to avoid doing much of anything

I have watched him a couple of times this year, and he is dominant at the college level, but is he any better than any of those listed above?

I will say that I hope the Rams neglect their offense to draft him because it will ensure that they don't threaten the cards for years to come
 

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i hope they take Jimmy Claussen. it will help me hate the rams, and they will suck
 

Duckjake

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They said "Big Daddy" Wilkinson was the best defenseive player of the decade and he was a journeyman in the NFL. Glenn Dorsey was supposedly the best player in the 08 draft and he can barely get on the field for the Chiefs. Ryan Sims was supposedly can't miss and managed to avoid doing much of anything

I have watched him a couple of times this year, and he is dominant at the college level, but is he any better than any of those listed above?

I will say that I hope the Rams neglect their offense to draft him because it will ensure that they don't threaten the cards for years to come

I don't know why but interior linemen just aren't the forces defensively they used to be.

However, I think the guy would be a real factor defensively if he plays DE in a 3-4 similar to what Dockett does for the Cards.
 

Cbus cardsfan

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Russell Maryland was another journeyman and he was #1 overall. I think interior DL is a total crapshoot. I couldn't really tell much difference between Tommie Harris, Kevin Williams,and Dewayne Robertson when it came to natural talent yet Harris and Williams have been great and Robertson has been a non-factor and been cut. John Henderson, Albert Hayneworth,a nd Wendell Bryant were all considered about the same, talentwise, and look how that turned out. I thought Jimmy Kennedy, from PSU, was a can't miss and he couldn't get on the field. Gerard Warren was as sure a pick as you could get and he's on his 3rd or 4th team. I think the interior OL in the NFL is so much better that it's hard to project how the DT will stack up because they are so physically superior to the interior OL in college. Alot of the interior OL came into the NFL as tackles. You have to keep drafting the higher rated DT's and hope they pan out but their bust factor is pretty high.
 
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Timm Rosenbach

Timm Rosenbach

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Russell Maryland was another journeyman and he was #1 overall. I think interior DL is a total crapshoot. I couldn't really tell much difference between Tommie Harris, Kevin Williams,and Dewayne Robertson when it came to natural talent yet Harris and Williams have been great and Robertson has been a non-factor and been cut. John Henderson, Albert Hayneworth,a nd Wendell Bryant were all considered about the same, talentwise, and look how that turned out. I thought Jimmy Kennedy, from PSU, was a can't miss and he couldn't get on the field. Gerard Warren was as sure a pick as you could get and he's on his 3rd or 4th team. I think the interior OL in the NFL is so much better that it's hard to project how the DT will stack up because they are so physically superior to the interior OL in college. Alot of the interior OL came into the NFL as tackles. You have to keep drafting the higher rated DT's and hope they pan out but their bust factor is pretty high.

Great post CBus. And it seems that Suh plays high like some of the disappointing guys you and I mentioned and lacks the size to ever be a dominant NT. This guy's best shot at being great seems to be as a 3-4 DE and that isn't going to happen with the Rams who have Carriker and Long.
 

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Great post CBus. And it seems that Suh plays high like some of the disappointing guys you and I mentioned and lacks the size to ever be a dominant NT. This guy's best shot at being great seems to be as a 3-4 DE and that isn't going to happen with the Rams who have Carriker and Long.

Carriker has been a BIG disappointment for the Lambs also.

I really think much of the hype about Suh is because of one game...against Texas. To me he wasn't much of a factor in tonights bowl game against U of A.
 

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Can't imagine what is going to happen to Warner/Leinart if Suh does live up to the hype. Suh did not rack up monster stats against Arizona but that doesn't mean he wasn't constantly doubled teamed by the Arizona Oline that only gave up 9 sacks this season to free up the other players on his line.
 

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Great post CBus. And it seems that Suh plays high like some of the disappointing guys you and I mentioned and lacks the size to ever be a dominant NT. This guy's best shot at being great seems to be as a 3-4 DE and that isn't going to happen with the Rams who have Carriker and Long.

Darnell Dockett has successfully played NT in the 3-4 and he is 285. Suh is 300. I agree he is a perfect fit as a 3-4 DE, but he could definitely play under tackle in a 4-3 as well. I think Suh is going to pan out as a dominant DT or DE when all is said and done.
 

ajcardfan

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Can't imagine what is going to happen to Warner/Leinart if Suh does live up to the hype. Suh did not rack up monster stats against Arizona but that doesn't mean he wasn't constantly doubled teamed by the Arizona Oline that only gave up 9 sacks this season to free up the other players on his line.

Yeah, he played very well I thought. He had a couple of impressive plays, just blew them up, that wouldn't show on the stat sheet because he didn't get the tackle.

That's one reason why DT is hard to evaluate like cbus said. No other position is more misleading if you just look at stats. Some schemes, like Nebraska's, have the DTs eat up blockers and read. Those DTs will have lower tackles and sacks. But, they can still be having a dominant game because they are freeing the LBs to make plays and rerouting what the offense wants to do. Others , will have DTs shoot the gaps and they will have misleadingly high tackles and sack numbers that won't translate to the NFL.
 

Russ Smith

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Russell Maryland was another journeyman and he was #1 overall. I think interior DL is a total crapshoot. I couldn't really tell much difference between Tommie Harris, Kevin Williams,and Dewayne Robertson when it came to natural talent yet Harris and Williams have been great and Robertson has been a non-factor and been cut. John Henderson, Albert Hayneworth,a nd Wendell Bryant were all considered about the same, talentwise, and look how that turned out. I thought Jimmy Kennedy, from PSU, was a can't miss and he couldn't get on the field. Gerard Warren was as sure a pick as you could get and he's on his 3rd or 4th team. I think the interior OL in the NFL is so much better that it's hard to project how the DT will stack up because they are so physically superior to the interior OL in college. Alot of the interior OL came into the NFL as tackles. You have to keep drafting the higher rated DT's and hope they pan out but their bust factor is pretty high.


On that list the only one you can easily explain is Robertson because he had so many knee problems so young. He was like Swann he was playing for years with no cartilage in either knee essentially.

Warren is just lazy.

But I do agree it's really hard to judge DL's, look here Watson and Branch were teammates in college and virtually everyone agreed Branch was the better player and the better prospect. But it was Watson that made the quicker impact, and it took Branch until this year until he really began to play like the kid we all saw in college.

I like Suh quite a bit because I don't think he's just huge, he seems really athletic.

You look at him, McCoy from OU, Price from UCLA, they're all good college players with a chance to be good pro players but Suh appears to be so much more athletic than they are, he's a legit 300 pounder but in shape, they're both over 300 but NOT in shape.

I expect Suh to be a very good NFL player, great, impossible to know.
 

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They said "Big Daddy" Wilkinson was the best defenseive player of the decade and he was a journeyman in the NFL. Glenn Dorsey was supposedly the best player in the 08 draft and he can barely get on the field for the Chiefs. Ryan Sims was supposedly can't miss and managed to avoid doing much of anything

I have watched him a couple of times this year, and he is dominant at the college level, but is he any better than any of those listed above?

I will say that I hope the Rams neglect their offense to draft him because it will ensure that they don't threaten the cards for years to come

If Suh can get to the QB and put up Dockett like numbers, he'd probably be worth it. And thinking of Suh and Long on the same defensive line is kind of scary. I'd much rather the Rams reach on some QB.

The real value with those high picks are with running backs and receivers. If they pan out immediately you've got big impact players on the cheap. You dare go any other direction and the risk/reward can skew any direction. DT has a very high risk/reward for a top 10 pick because DTs that are playmakers are VERY VERY unusual.
 

Gaddabout

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On that list the only one you can easily explain is Robertson because he had so many knee problems so young. He was like Swann he was playing for years with no cartilage in either knee essentially.

Warren is just lazy.

But I do agree it's really hard to judge DL's, look here Watson and Branch were teammates in college and virtually everyone agreed Branch was the better player and the better prospect. But it was Watson that made the quicker impact, and it took Branch until this year until he really began to play like the kid we all saw in college.

I like Suh quite a bit because I don't think he's just huge, he seems really athletic.

You look at him, McCoy from OU, Price from UCLA, they're all good college players with a chance to be good pro players but Suh appears to be so much more athletic than they are, he's a legit 300 pounder but in shape, they're both over 300 but NOT in shape.

I expect Suh to be a very good NFL player, great, impossible to know.

The guys with the good motors are the ones who make the immediate impact. Suh's motor may be his best attribute. He never gives up on a play and never takes one off. I think he will disappear some in the pro game when he starts taking on lots of gap responsibilities. I don't think he's had to really maintain two gaps in that Nebraska defense. They just let him get up field and wreak havoc in the heart of the pocket. And you're not going to bull rush an interior NFL lineman (unless they play for the Raiders).
 

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a good guy to keep an eye on this week is BJ Raji for the Packers. I've only seen him a few times but he's been pretty impressive in the games i have seen. He's pretty quick for a guys his size.
 

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Suh will be one of the safest picks as long as i have followed the draft. Reminds in so many ways of Ngata. He is the guy you build arround to make a premium D-Line. Prospects like him are very rare.

With one gappers, i agree, it's a crapshoot. All these players weren't necessary great in working along the D-Line and reading, pursuiting, making the plays. They all got their hype from penetration and big plays that resulted when they made the backfield. It's much easier in College than NFL to get acess to the backfield. Getting a good 3-technique is extremely hard due to this reason, it's even hard to evaluate the tapes. Because in NFL, you will be asked to do so much other stuff as well. You really have to be a monster one gapper like Docket and continuously gain acces to the backfield with this technique to make a name for yourself. Very few are that great at that as to make it work. Otherwise, if you can't penetrate, you are a big liability for your team and you can easy get cut.

However, when it comes to a guy like Suh that almost shows flawless ability to work along the D-Line, stuff the run with that powerstep, use his hands to disengage and read and react. He is basically a D-Lineman that becomes a LB along that LOS. Players like Dorsey were never anything like that.

Now, that technique above will ensure Suh to be at least a good NFL lineman. That's a guarantee from my side. Unless he gets injured or something. What can make him a star tough, like Ngata, is that he also is athletic and will be able to get to the QB as well, and occasionally enter that backfield. In fact he shows just as much penetrating ability as any other lineman in the draft when asked to do that. He is a freak of nature. But a very smart one same time, one that plays with good sound technique.

He is the perfect Steelers/Baltimore two gapper DT/DE, and he would be a perfect NT as well in our scheme. That's the position where we need skills like Suh's and where we would get much more than we get from Robinson. However i dont see us getting him, but you never know with an NFL draft. But dreaming is allowed and imagining a 3 man front with Docket, Suh and CC makes me smile...One of you wrote that nebraska just let him up the field to destroy the pocket. I think that they ask him to do that sometimes, and he does just that. But when you look closely when he is asked to protect two gaps, he does that as good as anyone i have seen in college. His motor and ability to work on the line and disengage. One gappers never show something like that. In fact to me his biggest highlights is the plays he makes on the LOS, not in the backfield and there are more of those as well. That translates to the NFL.

If you guys want to check other Lineman with polished technique that just translates very well to the pro game but not necessary to college, look out for these guys:

Tyson Alualu, California
Height: 6-3. Weight: 290.
Projected 40 Time: 4.92.
Projected Round (2009): 2-3.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72KQ_NzX8NU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7vF1UWBlNU

Plays with a technique at least as polished as Suh's. Rarely you see that from a lineman in College to play smart like this, with this leverage and ability to read plays. In fact he uses his hands even better and plays with that nasty streak that you want on the D-Line. That Cal runs 34 sure has helped alot in developing these skills, he is years ahead of other college players. Ability to work on the line instead of just penetrate. Is much less athletic and disruptive than Suh and this is the difference between the two lies. What sticks out to me is that Alualu gets great penetration when asked, for example in obvious passing situations which shows to me that this guy has potential to disturb the backfield as well on the next level. Him and Suh are the two most polished lineman in this draft. And I would say by far from what i have seen so far. I tell you what, i hope we get Alualu in this draft, that is much more realistic than asking for Suh.

D'Anthony Smith, Louisiana Tech
Height: 6-2. Weight: 300.
Projected 40 Time: 5.04.
Projected Round (2010): 4-5.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wD6Au_C60U

The third that i think shows the leverage and use of hands and feet to be much better at pro level than he was in college. I like what he does along the LOS, but he isn't close being disruptive as Suh and Alualu when he does get access to the backfield.. I love his leverage and ability to disengange and make the play. That translates to the NFL and I think he will be a very reliable player. This technique translates to the NFL.



Besides, for teams that look for that penetrating freak, that may be a liability against everything else. I think this is the guy to pick in this draft. He will make the backfield more often than the guys picked before him. But this is not a pick I would want us to make, we have NFL's best 3 technique one gapper in Dockett. Odrick is very bad in working along the D-Line, reading and reacting. But he does know how to get penetration, he reminds me bit of Dockett. Players with these skills are crapshoot, it's really hard to evaluate, it's basically a guess. But if I had to pick a 3 technique, this would be my choice :

Jared Odrick, Penn State
Height: 6-5. Weight: 300.
Projected 40 Time: 5.09.
Projected Round (2010): 1-2.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30CSNaXn0aI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNSsTbryRvs&feature=related
 
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Garthshort

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Im afraid, since he's going to a Division rival, that he's going to be VG. and I agree with Duckjake, that he reminds me of DD.
 

cardpa

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The thing that stands out with Alualu is how he keeps the O Lineman from engaging him and locking him up. He uses his hands very well and does a good job of being able to come off the block to make the play. Good speed too. He also shows excellent vision. Finds the ball and ball carrier very well.
 

cardsfanmd

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Suh is an animal. The other guys named here dont compare to him for the most part. Most of those big guys in Bryant, Maryland, Wilkinson, Dorsey, Branch and Robertson ALL had questionable motors. This guy's heart and will is one of his strengths. You also cant forget that Suh is smarter than any of those guys. DL is a very cerebral position.

If I had the first pick I would trade it all all costs to avoid the contract, but Suh and Eric Berry are easily the top players in this draft IMO. I would be pretty surprised if Spaggs isn't fighting hard to get him.
 

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The Rams would be building quite a defense with Long and Suh dominating the line. They would be stupid to go for either Clausen or Bradford with the first pick instead of Suh. Having Long will help Suh and vice versa. There also might be a decent qb that the Rams could take with the first pick of the second round like Colt McCoy,Tony Pike, or Ryan Mallett (if he comes out).

Bottom line is that the best value IMO would be Suh with the first pick. Additionally the key for Suh being successful with the Rams is playing alongside Long. Hard to double team both.
 
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While we are off-topic, and talking draft, did anyone see Mike Iupati last night, the LG from Idaho?

He is simply amazing. One play, while engaged with a LB, he simply stuck out his right arm and hooked onto a DB, and proceeded to drive BOTH OF THEM downfield at least 5 yards. He has very long arms, which is big for Grimm/Whiz for their tackles (though he is an ideal pulling guard with his feet). They were speculating that he could possible move to RT. I could see this guy being our pick at #32...
 

RugbyMuffin

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Suh is a 3-4 DE, or an "under tackle" in 4-3 Tampa-2. ALA Warren Sapp

Suh is not a classic big body run stuffer

IMHO
 

Duckjake

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While we are off-topic, and talking draft, did anyone see Mike Iupati last night, the LG from Idaho?

He is simply amazing. One play, while engaged with a LB, he simply stuck out his right arm and hooked onto a DB, and proceeded to drive BOTH OF THEM downfield at least 5 yards. He has very long arms, which is big for Grimm/Whiz for their tackles (though he is an ideal pulling guard with his feet). They were speculating that he could possible move to RT. I could see this guy being our pick at #32...

We were talking about him in the Levi Brown thread and you are right he really looks like a player. I'd love to have him on the Cards. His name even fits right in with Latui. :D

Somebody said we already have Herman Johnson but the Cards, with the exception of LB, are finally in a position to draft guys who have the potential to be even better than the guys they have now. I didn't see Big Baby play in college but I haven't seen a college olineman with Iupati's skills in a long time. I'd say there are a lot of pro guards who are saying "I sure hope we don't draft that guy."

I know it was only Bowling Green but MI simply dominated them. I'd bet big ASFN money that if Iupati played guard for Texas Mr. Suh wouldn't be getting near the raves he is now and Texas beats Nebraska by 2 touchdowns.
 

Russ Smith

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The thing that stands out with Alualu is how he keeps the O Lineman from engaging him and locking him up. He uses his hands very well and does a good job of being able to come off the block to make the play. Good speed too. He also shows excellent vision. Finds the ball and ball carrier very well.

Yeah I like him at Cal I think he can play 3-4 DE. He's got a mean streak which I like, he's not dirty, but he plays with a chip on his shoulder.
 

Russ Smith

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Suh is an animal. The other guys named here dont compare to him for the most part. Most of those big guys in Bryant, Maryland, Wilkinson, Dorsey, Branch and Robertson ALL had questionable motors. This guy's heart and will is one of his strengths. You also cant forget that Suh is smarter than any of those guys. DL is a very cerebral position.

If I had the first pick I would trade it all all costs to avoid the contract, but Suh and Eric Berry are easily the top players in this draft IMO. I would be pretty surprised if Spaggs isn't fighting hard to get him.

I don't know why I feel compelled to stand up for Robertson but it's just hard for me to question the motor of a guy who was basically playing with no cartilage in his knees from about his 2nd year in the NFL.

He was never as good as they thought he'd be but that was in large part because nobody realized how bad his knees were coming out of college, had more injuries early in his NFL career and just fell off the cliff.

I thought he'd be a really good NFL player and still think he would have if not for the knees.

Agree about Berry, I still think that Taylor Mays might be a better NFL player than Berry though, but they're different guys, I see Berry as a FS in the NFL where Mays is SS who might even get moved to LB depending on the scheme.
Mays is an absolute athletic freak, but he had an injury plagued senior year so stock fell. I'd take Mays on the Cards in a second but I don't think he falls to the last pick of the first round.
 

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I don't know why I feel compelled to stand up for Robertson but it's just hard for me to question the motor of a guy who was basically playing with no cartilage in his knees from about his 2nd year in the NFL.

He was never as good as they thought he'd be but that was in large part because nobody realized how bad his knees were coming out of college, had more injuries early in his NFL career and just fell off the cliff.

I thought he'd be a really good NFL player and still think he would have if not for the knees.

Agree about Berry, I still think that Taylor Mays might be a better NFL player than Berry though, but they're different guys, I see Berry as a FS in the NFL where Mays is SS who might even get moved to LB depending on the scheme.
Mays is an absolute athletic freak, but he had an injury plagued senior year so stock fell. I'd take Mays on the Cards in a second but I don't think he falls to the last pick of the first round.

:D I don't know, Beanie fell to #31 last year.
 
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