Rod Graves Signs 3 Year Extension

[40yearfan]

Bro you need to stop putting words into my mouth. I havent once said the cards havent changed the way they do business. I have already many times stated how the Cards have changed doing business. That is not what I am contending. You are argueing a point I havent even made and debating nothing.

The point has always been that although they have changed and are big changes, they still are not in line with the way all other NFL teams do business. Which just goes to show just how far away we were.

Case in point for all the bells and whistles they are doing for rookies it takes a week into training camp for agents to actually get them out of the Cards. As for rookie holdouts not hurting I think the NFL, Coaches, and players a like would beg to differ and thats a fact. But since we have had double digit losses all of those years you cant really point to a rookie holdout as being the main culprit. Rookies who hold out tend to have a higher ratio of getting injured, Fitz and Rolle both got injured their first year becuase they are always trying to catch up physically, mentally, and arent as football ready as other players. Would Matt have started earlier if he didnt have to wait till the 2nd preseason game to start learning the system?

Another case in point, we dont offer bells and whistles to UFA just yet like the rest of the league.

And you said it yourself, they are "starting to act like an NFL". Which means even you dont think we are their yet.

So in all we both think things have changed for the better but are not their just yet, which is what I have been saying this whole time yet you only want to see the negatives I point out for some reason instead of the whole picture.

The problem is that you only look at the negatives. After watching this team all these years, it's obvious they have changed tactics and are trying to find a way to win. Maybe according to your standards they aren't equal to many NFL teams, but as far as I'm concerned, they are.

R. Graves has tried to follow the Philadelphia/New England model when it comes to the cap situation and I believe he has done that. Even though you may question when the money is spent or if enough of it is spent, you weren't here when Buddy Ryan left and this team was in cap hell. We lost some good players because of it. We don't have to worry about that now as the cap is being managed.

Maybe if Mike B had known ahead of time what the Cards record would be at the end of the year, he would have spent more money up front for better players, but you have to realize that he thought we could win with the players he had. Maybe that was his mistake or maybe it was Green's because of bad coaching. Regardless, we are where we are and to continually complain about the past serves nothing. He needs to learn from his mistakes and I believe he will.

 

[Zeno]

The problem is that you only look at the negatives. After watching this team all these years, it's obvious they have changed tactics and are trying to find a way to win. Maybe according to your standards they aren't equal to many NFL teams, but as far as I'm concerned, they are.

They can't be equal to other teams standards by ANYONES standards. When you average 5 wins a season--that means you aren't equal.

A measure of a team is W/L not cap space....especially when EVERYONE has cap space, not a single team will be flush up against the cap this off-season.

Sure they are trying to find a way to win but to me it looks like they are using a map for Los Angeles to find an address in New York--try as you might, no matter how good your intentions, it just won't get the job done.

 

[kerouac9]

Maybe if Mike B had known ahead of time what the Cards record would be at the end of the year, he would have spent more money up front for better players, but you have to realize that he thought we could win with the players he had. Maybe that was his mistake or maybe it was Green's because of bad coaching. Regardless, we are where we are and to continually complain about the past serves nothing. He needs to learn from his mistakes and I believe he will.

That's the thing, 40. Rod Graves didn't think that this team had the players to be competitive at the beginning of the season. How do I know? Because he said so when he said, "This team is not only 1 or 2 players away from contending for the playoffs" (emphasis mine). Why would a responsible manager make that statement when the season was still young?

I don't think that Joe or I think that Mike B doesn't want to win. I think that he does, but I think that he wants to win his way, and his way has been a failure thus far. I also question whether or not Rod Graves' #1 priority is winning football games. Most primarily because I don't think that Graves has ever said that was his #1 priority.

 

[joeshmo]

Maybe according to your standards they aren't equal to many NFL teams, but as far as I'm concerned, they are.

Then you arent looking at it with eyes wide open.

What other teams do that we do not - Draft picks in camp on time, incentives for free agents, useing the cap to its fullest capacity and that doesnt mean spending to the cap it means using the loopholes to help you maximize what you do spend in the cap.

R. Graves has tried to follow the Philadelphia/New England model when it comes to the cap situation and I believe he has done that.

Then you still believe completely wrong and I have already pointed out many times the facts not opinions as to why you are wrong. Just becuase all 3 have cap health does not mean they are the same. Far from it.

Both teams use cap loop holes to maximize their cap situation. We do not. They both fit more total salary under the cap then we do. They also both use trades to make up their roster. Not just some 7th round compensation for scrubs like we do. And although we have drafted better Philly and NE still draft way better then us.

There is a difference metween cap health and cap management. We have cap health, Philly and NE have cap management. They also have 100% more money locked up in their coaches, assistant coaches, trainers, top to bottom.

Even though you may question when the money is spent or if enough of it is spent, you weren't here when Buddy Ryan left and this team was in cap hell. We lost some good players because of it. We don't have to worry about that now as the cap is being managed.

I was here. And we are still lossing.

Maybe if Mike B had known ahead of time what the Cards record would be at the end of the year, he would have spent more money up front for better players, but you have to realize that he thought we could win with the players he had. Maybe that was his mistake or maybe it was Green's because of bad coaching. Regardless, we are where we are and to continually complain about the past serves nothing. He needs to learn from his mistakes and I believe he will.

K9 has already debunked that according to the comments taht Graves made early in the year about not being just 1 or 2 players away to even making the playoffs. So the Cards did believe the beginning of the season they still needed more players and they did have the money to do so.

As for the last sentance, Well at least you do believe they have made mistakes and you just dont want to dwell on them and I can understand that.

 

[40yearfan]

That's the thing, 40. Rod Graves didn't think that this team had the players to be competitive at the beginning of the season. How do I know? Because he said so when he said, "This team is not only 1 or 2 players away from contending for the playoffs" (emphasis mine). Why would a responsible manager make that statement when the season was still young?

I don't think that Joe or I think that Mike B doesn't want to win. I think that he does, but I think that he wants to win his way, and his way has been a failure thus far. I also question whether or not Rod Graves' #1 priority is winning football games. Most primarily because I don't think that Graves has ever said that was his #1 priority.

So how about giving us the whole statement so we can see what that was in response to and the context it was said in? Is that a direct quote or your words of what was said?

Graves #1 priority is not winning football games. That's the coach's and player's #1 priority and MB's priority. The GM has to concern himself with the front office aspects and all he can do to help in the win column is to try and get the personnel who can do that. He can't call plays or make gametime decisions.

 

[Russ Smith]

FWIW the whispers section in PFW says that Graves extension was somewhat unexpected, that many expected a complete housecleaning. They said when they asked Bidwill if there was going to be any front office changes at all he completely avoiding answering the question. That was to announce Green was fired, of course later they announced Graves had been extended.

In another section they cited specific mistakes Green had been blamed for, not moving Wells from guard quick enough, not pulling Step earlier, not using Edge on 3rd down effectively etc.

 

[devilfan02]

So how about giving us the whole statement so we can see what that was in response to and the context it was said in? Is that a direct quote or your words of what was said?

Graves #1 priority is not winning football games. That's the coach's and player's #1 priority and MB's priority. The GM has to concern himself with the front office aspects and all he can do to help in the win column is to try and get the personnel who can do that. He can't call plays or make gametime decisions.

That quote was well documented. He said it before the season started and there was even a thread about it. I'll try and find it. IIRC it was in his annual letter to season tix holders addressing the state of the team before the season started

 

[Skkorpion]

I don't know why we signed Edge either. He is washed up. Whoever is responsible for that move blew it. Of course, in true Cards fashion, we'll never know.

 

[40yearfan]

Then you arent looking at it with eyes wide open.

Maybe, but I'm not looking at it with my eyes half closed like yours are. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't make me automatically wrong. You make mistakes also. You just won't admit to it.

What other teams do that we do not - Draft picks in camp on time, incentives for free agents, useing the cap to its fullest capacity and that doesnt mean spending to the cap it means using the loopholes to help you maximize what you do spend in the cap.

So you are saying all 31 other NFL teams do this? The Cards are the only ones who don't?



Then you still believe completely wrong and I have already pointed out many times the facts not opinions as to why you are wrong. Just becuase all 3 have cap health does not mean they are the same. Far from it.

Both teams use cap loop holes to maximize their cap situation. We do not. They both fit more total salary under the cap then we do. They also both use trades to make up their roster. Not just some 7th round compensation for scrubs like we do. And although we have drafted better Philly and NE still draft way better then us.

Not according to the draft guru's after this last draft.

There is a difference metween cap health and cap management. We have cap health, Philly and NE have cap management. They also have 100% more money locked up in their coaches, assistant coaches, trainers, top to bottom.

How do you know this? Any hard facts or just speculation?



I was here. And we are still lossing.



K9 has already debunked that according to the comments taht Graves made early in the year about not being just 1 or 2 players away to even making the playoffs. So the Cards did believe the beginning of the season they still needed more players and they did have the money to do so.

And I've asked K9 to expound on that so that we can put it into the proper context. Do we know if RG was responsible for no more FA's after getting Edge or did MB pull the purse strings shut? Without the answer to that question, we can only make assumptions and I would consider mine to be as good as yours or K9's.

As for the last sentance, Well at least you do believe they have made mistakes and you just dont want to dwell on them and I can understand that.

*

 

[40yearfan]

That quote was well documented. He said it before the season started and there was even a thread about it. I'll try and find it. IIRC it was in his annual letter to season tix holders addressing the state of the team before the season started

Great. Post the whole thing so we can decide for ourselves what was said.

 

[Redsz]

Edge is washed up? WTF?! Edge was strong when he (finally) got stability in front of him. He ran for 600+ yds at 4.2 YPC in the last 8 games.

 

[Skkorpion]

Edge is washed up? WTF?! Edge was strong when he (finally) got stability in front of him. He ran for 600+ yds at 4.2 YPC in the last 8 games.

He can't break long runs any more. We need and deserve better.

 

[Russ Smith]

He can't break long runs any more. We need and deserve better.

We certainly need another RB on the roster who can break some long runs. Shipp averaged just over 2 yards per carry this year, admittedly mostly in short yardage. Arrington averaged 1.4 YPC this year. We gotta find someone with some speed to break a long run now and then. Unless the new coach thinks JJ is that guy and was just buried under Green, that suggests we're going to draft a RB at some point this year.

 

[ajcardfan]

He can't break long runs any more. We need and deserve better.

Yes, a home run hitter at RB would be nice. If Petersen happened to be at #5, he'd be a great pick. But, the run game over the last six games was as good as we've ever had it here. We were able to run for first downs and run in the red zone. I wouldn't get a RB at the expense of another position like CB. Not this offseason.

 

[Ryanwb]

He can't break long runs any more. We need and deserve better.

The trend in the league is a two back rotation.... speed guy and a power guy. The new coach needs to get Arrington the ball

 

[Redsz]

He can't break long runs any more. We need and deserve better.

He has always been a grinder ever since the knee injury. And since then he wasn't breaking long ones, but creating a consistent ground attack and converting third downs.

Edge is part of the solution here, not part of the problem.

 

[kerouac9]

Great. Post the whole thing so we can decide for ourselves what was said.

Good lord, 40. If you doubt what everyone else on the board already takes for documented fact, maybe you should take 30 seconds of your own damn time and fine the stupid article yourself.

But there's no question the Cardinals had the salary-cap means to do more. They didn't. Graves said that's because the team needed to plan for the future.

"Frankly, we're not there yet; we're not (just) one or two players away," he said. "We're on the path toward building a very strong football team. What we want to do is leave flexibility to make those key decisions in future years and not put it all back for today's moment."

But fans have heard that before from Cardinals officials. Michael Bidwill, team vice president, has referred to maintaining adequate salary-cap space as "keeping our powder dry."

At what point do you stop planning for tomorrow because you think you can win today?

"I believe this team should be judged at the end of the season as to where are and how we spent our cap room," Graves said. "To me, that's where you judge. . . . Did they do what they said they would do? Are we a stronger team because of the commitments they made? Was it wise to wait on players like Leonard Davis to see exactly where his market value is?

Now, please back up any of your assertions, like that a new General Manager automatically means that you have to clean out the entire roster. Oh, wait, you're too good to back up your own ridiculous, unfounded opinions.

No matter how many times you say it, all opinions are not created equal. Your opinion could be that the sky is green, but that doesn't change the fact that it is, indeed, blue. The record shows that Rod Graves has been the least successful GM in the NFL not named Matt Millen during his tenure in the only column that matters: wins and losses.

The fact that you think that Ws and Ls oughtn't be a general manager's concern should tell everyone here just how far afield you're willing to go to defend your guy, to whom you seem to be attached like a barnacle to the rusted hull of a sinking tanker.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

He can't break long runs any more. We need and deserve better.

First 1,000 yard running back in eight years.

Sorry, Skorp that is ridiculous.

The guy played through a new system, many offensive line changes, a offensive coordinator switch, a QB awitch, AND played for a lame duck of a coach for eight weeks.

AND STILL got a thousand yards.

Sorry I do not see were Edge is over the hill.

On another topic (not saying Skorp said this). But sooo many are calling for blood if Leonard Davis leaves, and those same people want to get rid of Edge?

Madness.

Oh and 40yearfan my good friend. You are fighting a losing battle. Regardless of the topic, or anything you are not going to convince some people of anything or even get to debate it in a civilized manner. Some are way keyed up, rightfully so, since the end of the season and looking for blood.

 

[football karma]

Originally Posted by Rod Graves, VP Football Operations, Arizona Cardinals Football Club, September 10, 2006

"Frankly, we're not there yet; we're not (just) one or two players away," he said.


I hesitate to inject myself into the middle of this, but:

A fair question is to ask is "Away from what?"

After he said this, Bickley and MJ were roasting him for it.

They had Kent Somers on, who to my surprise somewhat defended Graves by saying that in talking to Rod, his understanding was he meant "away from being a Super Bowl contender"

 

[RugbyMuffin]

No matter how many times you say it, all opinions are not created equal.

Well, since we are a bunch of people with day jobs talking on a message board I think it is safe to say that all opinions are created equal.

I don't care how smart some posters think they are. Unless I see some credentials showing they are sports writers, analysis, etc. then it is just one Cardinals fan talking to another.

I hope you are not implying that your opinion is greater than all. I know you are smarter than that.

Oh and by the way.....IMHO Graves sucks and didn't deserve an extention.

 

[kerouac9]

Rugby, I thought that I made it clear in my post, but I'll say it explicitly:

Opinions based on evidenced facts are more valid by those presented only as opinons.
Opinions supported by logical argument are more valued than those presented only as opinion.

40's position that Rod Graves is a good general manager because he has the Cardinals organization working the way the NFL was five years ago is an opinion. It is just not as supportable as the one that holds that Rod Graves is a bad general manager because the Cardinals have had rookie holdouts every year of Rod Graves' tenure here and have had a worse win-loss record than any team excepting the Detriot Lions, against whom I believe the Cards' record is 1-2 since Rod Graves has been GM.

To me, the opinions aren't equally supported. If a person thinks that a GM's efficacy should be measured by something different than wins and losses, then I'd like to know what that metric ought to be so that we'll know when people like 40, nidan, and Skkorp will believe that the assuredly-good-person Rod Graves is, in fact, a horrible general manager.

 

[Russ Smith]

First 1,000 yard running back in eight years.

Sorry, Skorp that is ridiculous.

The guy played through a new system, many offensive line changes, a offensive coordinator switch, a QB awitch, AND played for a lame duck of a coach for eight weeks.

AND STILL got a thousand yards.

Sorry I do not see were Edge is over the hill.

On another topic (not saying Skorp said this). But sooo many are calling for blood if Leonard Davis leaves, and those same people want to get rid of Edge?

Madness.

Oh and 40yearfan my good friend. You are fighting a losing battle. Regardless of the topic, or anything you are not going to convince some people of anything or even get to debate it in a civilized manner. Some are way keyed up, rightfully so, since the end of the season and looking for blood.

Who is saying get rid of edge? I think people are saying bring in another rb with some speed because edge doesn't have it anymore.

First time in his career he didn't have a run over 20 yards. That's not all the OL, there were times this year he broke the LOS and with any speed at all would have gotten more than 20. Usually he'd get 13-15 and then get caught by half the defense.

he's still a very good RB but most great RB's get their share of longer runs to get those gaudy YPC numbers. Edge has amazing balance and ability to make people miss, but he can't take it to the house anymore.

 

[Duckjake]

First 1,000 yard running back in eight years.

To be fair one reason the Cards have not had a 1000 yard RB in 8 years is that for several of those seasons they had two RBs getting carries.

Shipp and Emmit had 318 carries for 1086 yards in 2003.
Shipp and Jones had 326 carries for 1345 yards in 2002.
Pittman and Jones combined for 1,226 yards in 2001 and 1,092 in 2000.

 

[40yearfan]

Good lord, 40. If you doubt what everyone else on the board already takes for documented fact, maybe you should take 30 seconds of your own damn time and fine the stupid article yourself.



Now, please back up any of your assertions, like that a new General Manager automatically means that you have to clean out the entire roster. Oh, wait, you're too good to back up your own ridiculous, unfounded opinions.

No matter how many times you say it, all opinions are not created equal. Your opinion could be that the sky is green, but that doesn't change the fact that it is, indeed, blue. The record shows that Rod Graves has been the least successful GM in the NFL not named Matt Millen during his tenure in the only column that matters: wins and losses.

The fact that you think that Ws and Ls oughtn't be a general manager's concern should tell everyone here just how far afield you're willing to go to defend your guy, to whom you seem to be attached like a barnacle to the rusted hull of a sinking tanker.

And this is what you're all upset about?

"Frankly, we're not there yet; we're not (just) one or two players away," he said. "We're on the path toward building a very strong football team. What we want to do is leave flexibility to make those key decisions in future years and not put it all back for today's moment."

What is incorrect about that statement? You are basing this man's performance on making a true statement and lambasting him for it? Doesn't make much sense but then again neither does the rest of your argument.

Why do I need to back up my argument. You proved it for me by your own comments. You only want to keep 7 players. If you don't consider that a complete team rebuild, you have no conception of what the word rebuild means.

BTW, you need to realize that you really aren't perfect and that your opinions aren't always 100% correct. You have no tolerance for others opinions and try to belittle them and shout them into compliance. Won't work on me or most of the other posters on this board so why don't you just discuss things intelligently and not get so belligerent. You kinda remind me of Dennis Green.

 

[40yearfan]

Rugby, I thought that I made it clear in my post, but I'll say it explicitly:

Opinions based on evidenced facts are more valid by those presented only as opinons.
Opinions supported by logical argument are more valued than those presented only as opinion.

40's position that Rod Graves is a good general manager because he has the Cardinals organization working the way the NFL was five years ago is an opinion. It is just not as supportable as the one that holds that Rod Graves is a bad general manager because the Cardinals have had rookie holdouts every year of Rod Graves' tenure here and have had a worse win-loss record than any team excepting the Detriot Lions, against whom I believe the Cards' record is 1-2 since Rod Graves has been GM.

To me, the opinions aren't equally supported. If a person thinks that a GM's efficacy should be measured by something different than wins and losses, then I'd like to know what that metric ought to be so that we'll know when people like 40, nidan, and Skkorp will believe that the assuredly-good-person Rod Graves is, in fact, a horrible general manager.

It's called differing opinions. I'm not sure you understand the concept so I won't try to explain it to you.