SI rankings, racist slurs hurled at Mutombo

Nash

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Bunch of stuff to post on. Sorry, I was not in a mood to write about all this stuff or even put links in my blog. But here is a summary of today's news:

Steve Kerr doesn't like parity in the NBA

SI.com's rankings - better than FOX's but still not great. Nash is ranked below Marion. nuff' said!

How sad are the ATL Falcons ? weird article by an ATL writer, trying to console fans by comparing sports and real life.

Dikembe ready to attack racists
"For him to call a black man a monkey in the middle of the game, he was in the second row, for him to stand up and call, 'Mutombo the monkey,' is an insult. It insulted my integrity, my body, my family, my race."
 

Divide Et Impera

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Good for Mutombo! I agree with every word he said. I hope, first, that it never happens to him or anyone ever again, but secondly, if it does happen to him again, he has every right to go into the stands and pummel the guy. That type of behavior should not be tolerated by the fans in the area, the refs, the security staff or the league. This is almost as bad as the heckler that was making fun of Vernon Maxwell's stillborn baby....
 

az1965

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Good for Mutombo! I agree with every word he said. I hope, first, that it never happens to him or anyone ever again, but secondly, if it does happen to him again, he has every right to go into the stands and pummel the guy. That type of behavior should not be tolerated by the fans in the area, the refs, the security staff or the league. This is almost as bad as the heckler that was making fun of Vernon Maxwell's stillborn baby....
I agree. Fans pay to watch the game and not insult players and their families. This turd should be banned attending games.
 

HooverDam

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Wow Kerr is an idiot. But as a part of a juggernaut BUlls team, I guess it makes sense he likes that. Parity is good for the league, having 10 contenders means you have 10 cities that will have almost every game sold out. Would you rather have ho hum teams, that cant get the attention of their cities?

And who cares about the death of the big man? I for one am glad for that. I hate watching basketball controlled by sloths like Shaq who are good because they are big. I'd much rather watch a quick, athletic, complete team. Players that can shoot and run, not just back their fat butt down on someone and turn around and lay it in- yawn.

I think the NBA is in a golden age, it was a rough patch for the league after the Jordan era, but the league is great right now. So many young stars, so many good teams, etc. The only thing it needs now is a nice East-West, Celtics/Lakers type rivalry to develop. Hopefully itll be the Suns and either the Heat or Cavs in the Finals this year, I think that would be very fun to watch.
 

haverford

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Perhaps someone should tell Motumbo that he's the racist for interpreting the comment as racist. I mean rilly, what a coward.:doi:
 

Jersey Girl

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I can't believe that there is a soul alive that can say bad word one about Dikembe Mutumbo.
 

MigratingOsprey

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agreed - dikembe is the man and a good one at that - also it's more than interpretation to think that calling a black man a monkey is racist
 

haverford

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Ummm, that's pretty racist! :mad:

...and "rilly?"

Relax, I'm on your side. My comment was drenched in sarcasm and referred to a previous thread in which one person scaled Olympus to tell me that anyone who found such remarks to be racist was probably the racist himself. The denial of racism knows no bounds.
 

elindholm

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Relax, I'm on your side. My comment was drenched in sarcasm and referred to a previous thread in which one person scaled Olympus to tell me that anyone who found such remarks to be racist was probably the racist himself. The denial of racism knows no bounds.

LOL, I hope you don't actually think those two cases are remotely similar, except in the most superficial ways.
 

haverford

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LOL, I hope you don't actually think those two cases are remotely similar, except in the most superficial ways.

Yes, the nervous laughter of recognition. Look, you can "LOL" and proceed to torture the the arguments all you like, but, as they say in recovery, it is what it is. Stick to hoops, friend.
 

Drop D

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Relax, I'm on your side. My comment was drenched in sarcasm and referred to a previous thread in which one person scaled Olympus to tell me that anyone who found such remarks to be racist was probably the racist himself. The denial of racism knows no bounds.

Wow, usually, I can pick up sarcasm. I guess I should have read more into the emoticon :doi:.
However, many don't read all the posts in one thread, let alone can pick up subtle references to other threads. I guess it is best to assume that someone is going to walk in mid conversation.
 

haverford

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Wow, usually, I can pick up sarcasm. I guess I should have read more into the emoticon :doi:.
However, many don't read all the posts in one thread, let alone can pick up subtle references to other threads. I guess it is best to assume that someone is going to walk in mid conversation.

Sorry to have caught you up in an old issue. Welcome, in any case.
 

elindholm

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Yes, the nervous laughter of recognition. Look, you can "LOL" and proceed to torture the the arguments all you like, but, as they say in recovery, it is what it is. Stick to hoops, friend.

Wow, you are a piece of work. I'm not "nervous" from the recognition that you called me out.

The first case is a man in a gorilla suit. He is not insulting to anyone in particular, except sometimes as part of a gag (which may be in poor taste, but that is beside the point). He does not hurl epithets or single anyone out.

The second case is one person gaining the attention of another and attacking him, directly, with an unambiguous derogatory remark.

Please confirm that you think these two cases are remotely comparable, and we can be done with this conversation.
 
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haverford

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Yes, the nervous laughter of recognition. Look, you can "LOL" and proceed to torture the the arguments all you like, but, as they say in recovery, it is what it is. Stick to hoops, friend.

Wow, you are a piece of work. I'm not "nervous" from the recognition that you called me out.

The first case is a man in a gorilla suit. He is not insulting to anyone in particular, except sometimes as part of a gag (which may be in poor taste, but that is beside the point). He does not hurl epithets or single anyone out.

The second case is one person gaining the attention of another and attacking him, directly, with an unambiguous derogatory remark.

Please confirm that you think these two cases are remotely comparable, and we can be done with this conversation.

Heh, tell me something I don't know--piece of work. As to the ongoing rhetorical dispute, yes, elindholm, they are very comparable. You may not see this, but others do, and perhaps that is your problem and not theirs. This comment of mine will no doubt occasion the fallacy in your mind that I am somehow betraying a dark hatred of black people (neat trick, sort of) and if you reply as I suspect you will experience some strange sense of sportsboard triumph, and then I'll be good and sick of you....which is a shame, because, as I say, you are a super smart observer of basketball. Other things, not so much.
 
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elindholm

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As to the ongoing rhetorical dispute, yes, elindholm, they are very comparable. You may not see this, but others do, and perhaps that is your problem and not theirs.

Since we both recognize that there are thoughtful people with contrary positions, what is it that makes your position objectively correct? Oh, that's right, nothing. And yet you have no response for my illustration of the significant differences between the situations.

haverford said:
This comment of mine will no doubt occasion the fallacy in your mind that I am somehow betraying a dark hatred of black people

You either misread or misunderstood something I wrote before. I said that looking for examples of prejudice where it doesn't exist is racially divisive -- which it is -- but I did not say that you are a racist. Or at least I don't think I did, and if I did, I apologize.

What I meant was that stirring the pot for its own sake does nothing to bridge prejudicial divides. Self-righteously waving the flag of the oppressed is not a substitute for critical thinking. It is merely a convenient way to assert all-purpose moral superiority, and, by extension, the more enlightened mind. I don't buy it.

and then I'll be good and sick of you....which is a shame, because, as I say, you are a super smart observer of basketball. Other things, not so much.

I suppose you deserve some credit for not being sick of me already. As for your other comment, I find it rather hilarious. While I appreciate the back-handed compliment of my basketball knowledge, it is nowhere near the top of my list of specialities. Cutting through shoddy arguments cloaked in political correctness, however, is.

One last thought: do you suppose Motumbo would find them comparable?

You tell me. Mutombo has been in the league about twenty years, and I don't believe he has ever spoken out about the Gorilla. If he has (and I missed it), he certainly didn't do it this strongly. He has never threatened to attack the Gorilla. He has never made a noisy complaint to the league or Suns about it. He has never jumped at the opportunity, when addressing another matter, to say something like, "This is similar to the problem with the Phoenix Gorilla."

So, you tell me: Does Mutombo find them comparable?
 
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haverford

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Since we both recognize that there are thoughtful people with contrary positions, what is it that makes your position objectively correct? Oh, that's right, nothing. And yet you have no response for my illustration of the significant differences between the situations.



You either misread or misunderstood something I wrote before. I said that looking for examples of prejudice where it doesn't exist is racially divisive -- which it is -- but I did not say that you are a racist. Or at least I don't think I did, and if I did, I apologize.

What I meant was that stirring the pot for its own sake does nothing to bridge prejudicial divides. Self-righteously waving the flag of the oppressed is not a substitute for critical thinking. It is merely a convenient way to assert all-purpose moral superiority, and, by extension, the more enlightened mind. I don't buy it.



I suppose you deserve some credit for not being sick of me already. As for your other comment, I find it rather hilarious. While I appreciate the back-handed compliment of my basketball knowledge, it is nowhere near the top of my list of specialities. Cutting through shoddy arguments cloaked in political correctness, however, is.



You tell me. Mutombo has been in the league about twenty years, and I don't believe he has ever spoken out about the Gorilla. If he has (and I missed it), he certainly didn't do it this strongly. He has never threatened to attack the Gorilla. He has never made a noisy complaint to the league or Suns about it. He has never jumped at the opportunity, when addressing another matter, to say something like, "This is similar to the problem with the Phoenix Gorilla."

So, you tell me: Does Mutombo find them comparable?

I don't know, but I can imagine that it is likely.

As for the rest, good for you. I've had this argument. You've added little except your own obtuseness and some odd obsession with combatting the forces of political correctness. The problem, in the end, seems to lie with you.
 

elindholm

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I don't know, but I can imagine that it is likely.

I think that's quite indicative of your general approach. The evidence strongly indicates that he does not consider them comparable, but nonetheless, you "can imagine that it is likely." How can you expect to persuade anyone of your position when you simply won't allow it to be informed by facts?

You've added little except your own obtuseness

How do you figure? I've addressed your challeges straight on and added more detail every time you've asked. You're the one branding me with a label and running for cover.

some odd obsession with combatting the forces of political correctness.

To the extent that political correctness is b.s., yes, I do combat it, and I suppose you could even call it an "obsession." Of course there are many things aligned with political correctness that I find entirely legitimate, because they are logically supportable.

The problem, in the end, seems to lie with you.

You do realize, don't you, that by dismissing the argument this way you are guilty of exactly what I described?

Let me put it this way:

If I understand your position correctly, something is racist as long as any plausible racist interpretation of it exists. Is that more or less correct? Your "racism test" does not require intent, because not even you are arguing (are you?) that the Suns mascot intends to offend. So essentially, you can start with something that's entirely innocuous, but once someone is able to construct a racial interpretation, suddenly it becomes hateful. Right?

So here's a hypothetical example:

Let's imagine that someone discovered that "haverford" is pronounced quite similarly to "ha'aff-erfu'ud," which is Sioux for "white-man rapist." Would your screen name then automatically become offensive to Native Americans? Would you feel that you had to change it? Would you keep changing it every time someone came up with a possibly offensive interpretation, even if you suspected that they were pulling your leg?

Here's another example, this one real:

Many years ago I was traveling by train with an acquaintance. When we arrived at our destination, I noticed that a quarter was lying where he had been sitting. Even back then, a quarter wasn't much money, but I thought I should ask him if it was his. He looked at me oddly and said he didn't need it.

Now, it turns out that this person was Jewish, although I did not know that at the time, and I later learned that, in some circles, Jews are considered money-grubbers. So it would be possible to construe my offer of the coin as saying, "Hey, Jewboy, don't you want to fight me for this quarter?" I was ignorant of this possible interpretation, but even had I known about it, I proabably would have asked the question anyway, for the simple reason that he might want the quarter. Would you condemn me for that?

And one more example:

I work with a Japanese colleague whose last name contains the "s-word," the exact four letters, right in a row. If I were to change my last name to "Lind - <s-word> - holm," most people would find that offensive. So is my colleague's name offensive too? Should he change it? Why not?

You really need to ask yourself whether your motivation is to learn something, which might bring you to a position where you can discuss matters like this intelligently, or if you are satisfied to put your hands over your ears and say things like "The problem lies with you." Refusal to confront and understand evidence is the real problem, and it ain't mine.
 
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haverford

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I don't know, but I can imagine that it is likely.

I think that's quite indicative of your general approach. The evidence strongly indicates that he does not consider them comparable, but nonetheless, you "can imagine that it is likely." How can you expect to persuade anyone of your position when you simply won't allow it to be informed by facts?

You've added little except your own obtuseness

How do you figure? I've addressed your challeges straight on and added more detail every time you've asked. You're the one branding me with a label and running for cover.

some odd obsession with combatting the forces of political correctness.

To the extent that political correctness is b.s., yes, I do combat it, and I suppose you could even call it an "obsession." Of course there are many things aligned with political correctness that I find entirely legitimate, because they are logically supportable.

The problem, in the end, seems to lie with you.

You do realize, don't you, that by dismissing the argument this way you are guilty of exactly what I described?

Let me put it this way:

If I understand your position correctly, something is racist as long as any plausible racist interpretation of it exists. Is that more or less correct? Your "racism test" does not require intent, because not even you are arguing (are you?) that the Suns mascot intends to offend. So essentially, you can start with something that's entirely innocuous, but once someone is able to construct a racial interpretation, suddenly it becomes hateful. Right?

So here's a hypothetical example:

Let's imagine that someone discovered that "haverford" is pronounced quite similarly to "ha'aff-erfu'ud," which is Sioux for "white-man rapist." Would your screen name then automatically become offensive to Native Americans? Would you feel that you had to change it? Would you keep changing it every time someone came up with a possibly offensive interpretation, even if you suspected that they were pulling your leg?

Here's another example, this one real:

Many years ago I was traveling by train with an acquaintance. When we arrived at our destination, I noticed that a quarter was lying where he had been sitting. Even back then, a quarter wasn't much money, but I thought I should ask him if it was his. He looked at me oddly and said he didn't need it.

Now, it turns out that this person was Jewish, although I did not know that at the time, and I later learned that, in some circles, Jews are considered money-grubbers. So it would be possible to construe my offer of the coin as saying, "Hey, Jewboy, don't you want to fight me for this quarter?" I was ignorant of this possible interpretation, but even had I known about it, I proabably would have asked the question anyway, for the simple reason that he might want the quarter. Would you condemn me for that?

And one more example:

I work with a Japanese colleague whose last name contains the "s-word," the exact four letters, right in a row. If I were to change my last name to "Lind - <s-word> - holm," most people would find that offensive. So is my colleague's name offensive too? Should he change it? Why not?

You really need to ask yourself whether your motivation is to learn something, which might bring you to a position where you can discuss matters like this intelligently, or if you are satisfied to put your hands over your ears and say things like "The problem lies with you." Refusal to confront and understand evidence is the real problem, and it ain't mine.


I'm not running for cover. I laid it out there back in August. Since it appears you can read, and you proclaim critical thinking as one of your "specialties," go back and read what I said then. I don't think repeating it now will do much good--you're locked in. At the time I last made my argument (and it actually does address the question of intentionality that arises in the weirdly elaborate examples you offer above) you saw fit to dismiss my argument and snidely suggest I had the problem with race. You were not game then, but you are now. Fantastic. But I see no reason why I should reward your obnoxiousness just because you want to say now, tonight, that you're logical and I'm not. You say you have specialties--go pursue them.
 

fordronken

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Hey Eric, why don't you try arguing with an essay? At least then it might directly respond to one of your points accidentally.
 

elindholm

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Since it appears you can read, and you proclaim critical thinking as one of your "specialties," go back and read what I said then.

Okay, I did.

At the time I last made my argument (and it actually does address the question of intentionality that arises in the weirdly elaborate examples you offer above)

No it doesn't. You gave an example about two kids in a slapfight, which got laughed off the board by people other than me.

Then you resorted to argument by anecdote: "I know people who are offended by the Gorilla." Well, bully for them. As I, and everyone else who disagreed with you, pointed out, some people will get offended by anything.

Here's what you may not be considering: Claiming offense is empowering, in this day and age. If you run in mainly liberal circles (and my politics are well left of center, by the way), a sure way to gain attention and sympathy is to declare that you have been wronged by someone's insensitivity. Some people abuse this tactic, and I'm sure you are aware of that.

Abdul-Jabbar (whose alleged objection to the Gorilla started the discussion) had a chip on his shoulder his whole career. He caught a lot of flack (unfairly) for his Muslim conversion, and the media were never warm to him because he wasn't much of an interview. During his heyday, he was as dominant as any player in the league has ever been, and yet he didn't enter much into discussions of "greatest player ever," and still doesn't.

The point is, Abdul-Jabbar has an axe to grind. So when he spouts off and says that the Gorilla is racist, I don't put a lot of stock in it. He has been wronged, and I sympathize with him, but that doesn't give him carte blanche to cast aspersions on anything he doesn't like.

You made the analogy of accidentally causing harm to someone and then apologizing afterward. Like most reasonable people, I agree that an apology is appropriate in such cases. However, most of us have been in situations where someone claims to have been injured, or put out in some other way, when actually the claim is bogus. Should we be obliged to apologize in such cases? I would say no, and I would go further: We should not apologize in such cases, because that rewards the other party for dishonesty.

Next comes the question of what constitutes a reasonable threshold for "injuring" (let's use the term broadly to include non-physical injury) another person. For example, let's say you get on an elevator, and the other person looks at you sternly and says, "You're breathing my air, get off at the next floor." Maybe the person actually believes that you are wronging him by "breathing his air," but I say, tough. It is an inappropriate demand, and he has a societal obligation to develop more tolerance for such inconveniences.

I can offer a more realistic example. If you are trying to eat at a fast-food restaurant, it will often be the case that there are no empty tables, but some tables that could comfortably seat several people have only one customer. Generally, our sense of "privacy rights" sends us to an empty table when possible, but if one person is by himself at a six-seater, isn't it okay to sit with him? And if we ask first whether it's okay, and he says no, should that be binding? Is it reasonable for his tolerance for table company to be so low? Does rewarding such behavior benefit society?

My point is that being able to recognize when offense is not intended is, itself, a societal value. Behaviors that are out of step with societal priorities should, generally speaking, be punished, not rewarded.

Finally, I want to make some points about the tone of this argument:

In the original Abdul-Jabbar/Gorilla thread, which I did not participate in, you first pledged that all conversation was in friendship. But as soon as you ran into perfectly civil disagreement, you

(a) resorted to the smug, "I'm sorry if I've pulled anyone out of their comfort zones,"

(b) called another person's argument "deeply illogical and fact-deprived,"

(c) and then moved on to the personal attack, "And worse you seem to feel really good about it."

In your next post, you apologized for losing control, but rather than continue the discourse, you simply dropped the topic. Classic hit and run.

When I entered the discussion in another thread, I alluded to "accusing people of racism," which you protested that you didn't do. Technically, you're right. You accused people of insensitivity and ignorance, but not literally of racism, so I concede that point.

Nonetheless, then you became very hostile about my having accused you of racism, when actually what I wrote was, "the ability to 'connect the dots' and find an offensive interpretation says much more about the one doing the interpreting than it does about the circumstances themselves." I think if you re-read that you'll realize that it does not make any charge of racism; the accusation is more along the lines of cynical, self-serving grandstanding.

The consistent picture is of someone who looks for racial offense where it is not intended. I did not come close to calling you a racist. I said that you have ulterior motives for constructing a specious argument and are an intellectual coward, and I stand by that. But I am not calling you a racist.
 
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haverford

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Fine, you don't like my arguments or me. I suppose I don't need to say that I think the same of you and your distortions and miscomprehensions of the sway and pull of August's argument. Suffice it to say that your trump card is always the innocence of accidental intention, since other people's sensitivities--how they perceive racial insults--are fungible and even sometimes not entirely irrational, and since the history of racial stereotyping is something in which you appear to not be interested. Of course distinctions in intent need to be made--I acknowledged that in August and would not dispute it now. But this is one illuminating and painful case where the willingness to use accidental intent as cover--the attitude of "get over it, it's a freakin' gorilla and he wasn't intended to represent black basketball players"--is doubly wrong since it leaves in place the insult and dismisses the hurt it may have caused.

You have no "consistent picture" of me, other than the beagle under my pseudonym. I defended the view that the gorilla may be validly interpreted as racist (however loosely or strictly that may be construed) by Jabbar and others. Other than that, you know nothing about me. Absolutely nothing.
 

Chaplin

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What exactly is the point of this back-and-forth?

I mean, other than deflecting from any real issues.

Correct me if I'm wrong-- haverford is postulating that there may be some validity to someone saying the Phoenix Suns gorilla is a symbol steeped in racism. I don't believe Eric ever really disagreed with that--I think he more or less is of the opinion that it is an extreme reach to come up with that outlook on the mascot, but there is no issue with people having that opinion. (Of which I agree, actually) Many people have opinions dictated by political correctness that seem ridiculous when looked at by an objective observer. Eric used the example of Abdul-Jabbar's previous propensity to be unapproachable--and far from a qualified judge--in the matter.

If haverford thinks the Gorilla is a racist symbol, so be it. I (and thousands, maybe millions, more) think that is an extreme overexaggeration, and wrong in just so many ways. Would the Gorilla be voted amongst the top mascots in ANY sport if he was construed as a racist symbol? I think not.
 

fordronken

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I honestly think actual gorillas are racist. I don't think it's their fault, but it doesn't make them unoffensive. That's why they're the only ones I shoot in my hunting club.
 

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