Kings @ Suns Tuesday game thread 1-7-20

[Dr. Jones]

Superstar was on the bench while it was happening. Just saying.

Didn’t Lebron come back in when we made it tight in LA?

Shouldn’t a superstar demand to get back in the game?


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[CardsSunsDbacks]

Didn’t Lebron come back in when we made it tight in LA?

Shouldn’t a superstar demand to get back in the game?


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Booker came in and largely did his job by scoring 9 points in the quarter. The team as a whole couldn't buy a stop and everyone outside of Booker couldn't buy a bucket. Only so much Booker can do by himself.

 

[JerkFace]

As a straight catch-and-shoot player, how is he supposed to adjust? And even if he does, how does that make up for the fact that he doesn't have the physical tools to defend or put the ball on the floor in the NBA? (BTW, ironically, his statements last night are pretty much an admission that he has been rushing his shot because the more athletic players in the NBA have been getting in his face more quickly. Then again, if you look at the tape, that much is pretty darn obvious. )

You were complaining about Cam before the slump when he was shooting over 40% from the 3. It seems less about what Cam actually does on the floor and more about the fact that you just wanted Clarke and can’t get over it.

 

[1Sun]

You were complaining about Cam before the slump when he was shooting over 40% from the 3. It seems less about what Cam actually does on the floor and more about the fact that you just wanted Clarke and can’t get over it.

And when defenders started crowding Cam more consistently (because the scouting report is out that he can't put the ball on the floor), he started rushing his shot, and now he can't hit anything. And without the ability to hit the open 3, Cam brings absolutely nothing to the table.

BTW, if James Jones remains GM, expect the Suns with their Top 7 pick to select Markus Howard, Payton Pritchard or Nico Mannion. The first two fit the James Jones profile (older players with limited NBA athleticism whose strength is primarily shooting/scoring), while the third fits Sarver's (U of A guy).

All three will be NBA busts.

We need someone more competent than James Jones, and definitely NOT Robert Sarver, to make the call on player personnel moving forward. Otherwise, we are destined to repeat the debacle of the last four drafts.

 

[WildBB]

My biggest issue is bringing in guys like Saric, Kaminsky, Cam and Jerome with no toughness or athleticism to balance or counter it. All soft, streaky outside shooters who contribute nothing else. That is roughly one-third of our current rotation. And Rubio isn't exactly known for being tough or athletic, so that makes almost one-half of our rotation being comprised of soft, unathletic players. This above all else is why we are in this current mess, in my opinion.

Saric isn't soft, but he's for sure not athletic. They tried that route with JJ and unloaded that headache. Not sure your criteria was available to them last off season? Clarke or PJ possibly in the draft but they had Saric in hand and wanted to bring in more experience all around, so they also went with the floor spacer in the draft for Booker and Ayton to operate freely. I guess that's what they envisioned with Cam. And being a NC alum I think they believed in him having BB IQ on both ends helping him to make the transition to the NBA quicker.

 

[Dr. Jones]

Booker came in and largely did his job by scoring 9 points in the quarter. The team as a whole couldn't buy a stop and everyone outside of Booker couldn't buy a bucket. Only so much Booker can do by himself.

I personally believe that Book is out for Book. Sure he got 9 points, extended his streak and probably felt good about himself when he grabbed the box score in the locker room. Overall though, he had a very rough night against a bottom tier team, at home, on a night our team needed a lift from its Max player.

He needs to be able to stop runs like that.
He and Ayton need to be better leaders.

Both, at best, would be the third best player on a title contender. Neither will get us anywhere.

 

[ArizonaSportsFan]

I personally believe that Book is out for Book. Sure he got 9 points, extended his streak and probably felt good about himself when he grabbed the box score in the locker room. Overall though, he had a very rough night against a bottom tier team, at home, on a night our team needed a lift from its Max player.

He needs to be able to stop runs like that.
He and Ayton need to be better leaders.

Both, at best, would be the third best player on a title contender. Neither will get us anywhere.

I don't read the tea leaves the same way as you, mainly because he shoots less than he has in the past. If he was all about himself he would have Harden type attempt numbers. I wish the team were better defensively - certainly including Booker. A star can score 1 on 5 to provide a scoring lift. A star cannot defend 5 on 1 to stop the other team.

 

[TJ]

Didn’t Lebron come back in when we made it tight in LA?

Shouldn’t a superstar demand to get back in the game?


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Booker doesn’t have Lebron clout, and it’s widely known that Lebron has veto power over every coach he’s played for.

Besides, that’s not Book’s responsibility. That’s on Monty.

 

[Covert Rain]

I personally believe that Book is out for Book. Sure he got 9 points, extended his streak and probably felt good about himself when he grabbed the box score in the locker room. Overall though, he had a very rough night against a bottom tier team, at home, on a night our team needed a lift from its Max player.

He needs to be able to stop runs like that.
He and Ayton need to be better leaders.

Both, at best, would be the third best player on a title contender. Neither will get us anywhere.

I would have bought this in the past but not this year. Not by a long shot. I have watched him play. He is running his ass off. He is passing the ball the best he ever has the past two seasons. He is trying to get the other guys involved. He is almost keeping up with his assist total from the previous season despite not being asked to play PG for long stretches this season like the last. Nothing like his first 3 seasons assist per game.

I thought myself he would probably drop off assist wise when they got Rubio. It really hasn't happened. He has deferred to getting others in the offense and you have not heard him complain.

He is playing like an all-star this season so far. He has done everything Monty has asked of him. From all reports he is all in with Monty's philosophy and I put the fact Monty kept him out during a critical stretch on Monty. Sure the entire team didn't come out with any fire but pinpointing Booker with the season he is having is ridiculous.

Basically I call bull on this entire post.

 

[Dr. Jones]

I do agree that Book is trying harder this year. And I do believe he has improved his defense.

I just don't see how his play elevate those around him.

Or how his gravitational pull affects the outcomes of the games he plays. Producing for the sake of producing, when it doesn't affect the W-L totals is just emptiness to me.

With Ayton, my takes get much more harsh and hateful of the organization.

 

[95pro]

Regarding Booker, I think Monty was hoping he wouldn't need Book to save the team...in hindsight, I think he would go back and re-insert Book back into the game much sooner.

I may be reading into it too much but seems like Monty is all about proving a point. For example the pre-season comments about earning playing time. Then the constant changing of back up guard play to see who wants it more. I think he was hoping that unit would keep up without Booker as i think Monty was trying to get him more rest at that moment.

I personally believe that Book is out for Book. Sure he got 9 points, extended his streak and probably felt good about himself when he grabbed the box score in the locker room. Overall though, he had a very rough night against a bottom tier team, at home, on a night our team needed a lift from its Max player.

He needs to be able to stop runs like that.
He and Ayton need to be better leaders.

Both, at best, would be the third best player on a title contender. Neither will get us anywhere.

For now, i think Booker really wants to be in Phoenix and get the franchised turned around. He's already the lead guy and doesn't need to pad stats to show that he's number one in phoenix. I do wish he could have been more clutch after that bank-shot he made, he missed all shots after that down the stretch.

Ayton, i dont see 'it' in Ayton. He's good at getting 15/10 easily, but i dont see his heart/mind wanting to get more than those numbers, he settles for a paycheck. He'd be a great 3rd on the team with Booker and another filling our star needs.

 

[Covert Rain]

I do agree that Book is trying harder this year. And I do believe he has improved his defense.

I just don't see how his play elevate those around him.

Or how his gravitational pull affects the outcomes of the games he plays. Producing for the sake of producing, when it doesn't affect the W-L totals is just emptiness to me.

With Ayton, my takes get much more harsh and hateful of the organization.

I don't get when people say that about Booker. The litmus test must be in your eyes is the team making it to playoffs. When Booker goes from dishing out 2.6 assists his rookie season while shooting a ton to over 6.5 assist the last two seasons who do you think those assists are going to? The litmus test is this. How many wins do you think the team would have without Booker?

That is a scary thought. If you take into account all the bad draft picks around the guy, coaching turnover etc...it's definitely not on Booker or a valid assessment to determine if he makes those around him better. Look at the guys that the Suns have given up on. Look at what's happen to a couple of those guys since they left. A couple of those guys DEFINITIVELY looked better playing next to Booker.

I can count on my hand guys the past 10 years that actually became transformative in terms of wins/loses on their teams (by themselves). Those guys don't grow on trees and are usually generational (like Lebron). It's not like you can go out and get one of those guys. I don't consider Booker one of those rare players but to say he doesn't elevate the play of the other players at all??!?! I don't even get the point of bring that up since those players who can do that by themselves are so rare.

I don't put in the same category for instance as a Melo, Glen Rice, Steve Francis for example. Those guys were always about personal stats.

 

[WildBB]

With Ayton, my takes get much more harsh and hateful of the organization.

Monty has said numerous times you have to be patient with big men. He has to know however that he has to bring it on both ends for however long he's on the court, but as a C his main responsibility is on D side and not lagging behind on offensive misses.. This is definately a work in progress. This is where his UA work and suspension has really put him behind. Monty's going to really need to manage him for 4th qtr. effectiveness.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I don't put in the same category for instance as a Melo, Glen Rice, Steve Francis for example. Those guys were always about personal stats.

Can't put Booker in Melo's category at all. Melo as a rookie went to a 17-65 team and immediately vaulted what was a terrible Denver team for years into a playoff team and a 43-39 record in his rookie season... and then kept them in the playoffs for the entire time he was there, even pushing them to a WCF and getting within 2 games of the Finals at one point.

Maybe Melo once his legs were gone and he was just a ball-hog late in his NY career. But even there, he was the driving force in making the Knicks a 54 team and get to the second round of the playoffs.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Can't put Booker in Melo's category at all. Melo as a rookie went to a 17-65 team and immediately vaulted what was a terrible Denver team for years into a playoff team and a 43-39 record in his rookie season... and then kept them in the playoffs for the entire time he was there, even pushing them to a WCF and getting within 2 games of the Finals at one point.

Maybe Melo once his legs were gone and he was just a ball-hog late in his NY career. But even there, he was the driving force in making the Knicks a 54 team and get to the second round of the playoffs.

That's a major overstatement right there. You need to factor in the changes of the team as a whole. The 3 top scorers on the 03-04 team weren't on the team the year prior (which includes their starting PG Andre Miller) and 5 of their top 8 scorers were all new to the team. In other words they had a major team overhaul from the year prior to Melo to Melo's rookie season.

Or do you truly believe that Melo's 21 PPG on 50% true shooting was what single handedly drove them to a better record? I would argue that Miller added just as much if not more to the team than rookie Melo.

 

[Cheesebeef]

That's a major overstatement right there. You need to factor in the changes of the team as a whole. The 3 top scorers on the 03-04 team weren't on the team the year prior

WRONG. Nene Hilario was on the team the year before as the team 3rd leading scorer both the year before Melo and the year he got there.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DEN/2004.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DEN/2003.html

For the love of God, you don't even know FACTS when you come back with these arguments.

(which includes their starting PG Andre Miller) and 5 of their top 8 scorers were all new to the team.

yeah... a bunch of real talents added there too. Voshon Leonard on his last legs! Earl Boykins!

In other words they had a major team overhaul from the year prior to Melo to Melo's rookie season.

Or do you truly believe that Melo's 21 PPG on 50% true shooting was what single handedly drove them to a better record? I would argue that Miller added just as much if not more to the team than rookie Melo.

NEVER said he singlehandedly did anything.

Jesus Christ... can you really NEVER have a conversation without twisting people's arguments? If you're going to continue to do that kind of garbage, just put me on ignore.

also, if you don't think Melo was the driving force on that Nuggets team that made them go, you a) probably didn't watch them and b) probably think he wasn't the driving force on his Cuse team that won the title. I mean... Andre Miller gets just as much if not more credit? The guy who previously was so great he led the Clippers team loaded with young talent like Odom, Brand, Maggette to a whopping 27 wins the year before? THAT difference maker? Or was it Miller's stewardship of Cleveland to an average of 30 wins before that which really cemented his role as impact player turning around a 17 win team to a 43 win club?

Bottom line - dude was a difference maker throughout the first half of his career. He was someone defenses had to gameplay for, draw double teams and get to the FT IMMEDIATELY when he came into the league.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

WRONG. Nene Hilario was on the team the year before as the team 3rd leading scorer both the year before Melo and the year he got there.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DEN/2004.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DEN/2003.html

For the love of God, you don't even know FACTS when you come back with these arguments.



yeah... a bunch of real talents added there too. Voshon Leonard on his last legs! Earl Boykins!

In other words they had a major team overhaul from the year prior to Melo to Melo's rookie season.



NEVER said he singlehandedly did anything.

Jesus Christ... can you really NEVER have a conversation without twisting people's arguments? If you're going to continue to do that kind of garbage, just put me on ignore.

also, if you don't think Melo was the driving force on that Nuggets team that made them go, you a) probably didn't watch them and b) probably think he wasn't the driving force on his Cuse team that won the title. I mean... Andre Miller gets just as much if not more credit? The guy who previously was so great he led the Clippers team loaded with young talent like Odom, Brand, Maggette to a whopping 27 wins the year before? THAT difference maker? Or was it Miller's stewardship of Cleveland to an average of 30 wins before that which really cemented his role as impact player turning around a 17 win team to a 43 win club?

Bottom line - dude was a difference maker throughout the first half of his career. He was someone defenses had to gameplay for, draw double teams and get to the FT IMMEDIATELY when he came into the league.

You said he "immediately vaulted" them to 26 more wins. How does that not suggest that you believe it was all (or at least mostly) him? He was part of an overhaul that the team made and of course a big part of it, but he didn't have as big of an impact as you wanted to make it sound like he did. Maybe you should stop making such dramatic statements like that if you don't want them to be taken literally because I didn't twist anything...

Also their top 3 scorers in 03-04 were Anthony, Miller and Lenard in that order and none of which were on the team in 02-03.

 

[Covert Rain]

Can't put Booker in Melo's category at all. Melo as a rookie went to a 17-65 team and immediately vaulted what was a terrible Denver team for years into a playoff team and a 43-39 record in his rookie season... and then kept them in the playoffs for the entire time he was there, even pushing them to a WCF and getting within 2 games of the Finals at one point.

Maybe Melo once his legs were gone and he was just a ball-hog late in his NY career. But even there, he was the driving force in making the Knicks a 54 team and get to the second round of the playoffs.

Melo also had a better roster around him. They overhauled a horrible roster. They had a deeper bench. Hell Miller went to the playoffs 11 times in his career too. Nobody is saying Melo wasn't a dynamic scorer or not talented but there are so many stories out there about him being selfish and going for his. This roster? Pffft. The roster that Booker has had since he got here? Pfft. Not even comparable.

 

[jandaman]

I do agree that Book is trying harder this year. And I do believe he has improved his defense.

I just don't see how his play elevate those around him.

Or how his gravitational pull affects the outcomes of the games he plays. Producing for the sake of producing, when it doesn't affect the W-L totals is just emptiness to me.

With Ayton, my takes get much more harsh and hateful of the organization.

Booker going isolation is only good for his stats, because the rest become useless as they just watch.

Suns were looking much better when he was playing off the ball rather than doing his Harden impressions.

The Kings game was NOT lost in the offensive side, but in the defensive end.

 

[Ronin]

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[95pro]

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Sounds like some turmoil within the team.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

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Stop talking

 

[95pro]

Stop talking

Booker is the most interviewed Sun, i've never viewed him as a talker. But ayton just gets right out annoying, until he produces on the court i wont think otherwise.

 

[Ronin]

Stop talking

This.

 

[1Sun]

Sounds like some turmoil within the team.

Listening to Doug and Wolf right now. There is indeed turmoil. There was a team meeting in the last couple of days where, according to Monty, players "learned to deal with confrontation".

Meanwhile, Wolf went off on a big problem being when there is a team with Alphas and Betas, and the most talented player is a Beta. Pretty thinly veiled reference to Ayton.

It will be really interesting to see where the team goes from here...