az1965
Love Games!
Idiotic article. Typical Hollinger.
THIS was all they asked of D'Antoni?? What a baby!
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mojorizen7
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That D'Antoni can get the KNICKS to .500 ball and into the playoffs i have no doubt.
It's when he's asked to "coach" and win a playoff series facing opposing coaches who are quick to make adjustments and use defense in order to win big games that D'Antoni will feel the wrath of the angry mob. The honeymoon will be a short one in N.Y. IMO.
We shall see......
SirStefan32
Krycek, Alex Krycek
Actually, Marbury is a terrible fit. Stephon doesn't run. He flat out refuses to run.
SirStefan32
Krycek, Alex Krycek
Let's not forget that Coach "no D" Antoni sold a draft pick and then signed banks to a horrible contract. If he kept the pick and didn't sign Banks, Suns would have been able to keep at least one of those picks without going over the cap.
mojorizen7
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I find it absolutely hysterical that when you consider the opinions of human beings in this country including fans,owners,GM's,Head coaches,current NBA players, former NBA players,basketball people, scouts, and media types that the only people that believe in small ball/run n gun/Dfensless basketball are Mike D'Antoni,Don Nelson,a few of their disciples, and a small misguided mob of SUNS fans.
I mean....ya'll can use faceplants,knee injuries, Tim Duncan's rogue 3-pointer,and suspensions as excuses.....but nobody outside of Phoenix cares about any of that. How do cliches become cliches? How do some stereotypes become stereotypes?Defense wins championships. It's not rocket science unless you're Mike D'Antoni who'd love to prove the other 99% of the basketball world wrong.
Good riddance.
I mean....ya'll can use faceplants,knee injuries, Tim Duncan's rogue 3-pointer,and suspensions as excuses.....but nobody outside of Phoenix cares about any of that. How do cliches become cliches? How do some stereotypes become stereotypes?Defense wins championships. It's not rocket science unless you're Mike D'Antoni who'd love to prove the other 99% of the basketball world wrong.
Good riddance.
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I don't think it is as black and white as you paint it. The Suns didn't just play run and gun basketball like Westhead did with the Nuggets. D'Antoni ran a system that critically involved spacing, passing and good outside shooting to maintain it. Anyway, that is not my point. I think if the Suns could have run a bigger athletic lineup in his system with a player like Gasol at center he would have used it. Anyway D'Antoni is gone and I am looking forward to the NBA Draft and finding some renewed reasons for hope. However, I just think D'Antoni should be given more respect for a great four year ride.
BC867
Long time Phoenician!
Mike D'Antoni showed that he cannot coach defense. Or big bodies up front. Or develop young players. Or a bench. Or prepare a team for the post-season. Or learn from his shortcomings.
The only thing he produced was an innovative, albeit weak, style which put life back into the NBA for a few regular seasons, until it caught up with him.
And, even then, Mike D'Antoni didn't oversee the details . Steve Nash did.
Mike D'Antoni's coaching was definitely on borrowed time.
Will he be successful in NY? If one calls the possibility of raising the Knicks from a "D-" report card to a "C-" (until the playoffs) a bigger accomplishment than lowering the Suns from an "A" to a "B" (until the playoffs).
Who did not know that Bruce Bowen would smother Steve Nash, thus throwing the whole Suns team out of whack?
What is the definition of a D'Antoni? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
Last year, he waited until it was too late to throw Kurt Thomas in at Center.
This year, he did the same, moving Diaw to point Forward instead of Center. Too little, too late.
As a basketball coach, Mike D'Antoni was unintelligent . . . and lazy.
Luckily, it's time to move on. I believe Steve Kerr has the right ideas. Let's see how good he is at making them happen.
az1965
Love Games!
He does a real good job consistently throwing fits on the sidelines.
Big Deal
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So for all who didn't think that suns management didn't have this planned all along. If I was Mike I would be pissed too.
Chaplin
Better off silent
Why? Iavaroni had accepted the Memphis job, so there was an opening on the staff. Seems perfectly reasonable that they would have asked Hornacek if he was interested.
nowagimp
Registered User
statistically speaking, only one of the last ten championships was won w/out shaq or Tim Duncan. (And shaqs 2001 team was mid NBA(15th) defensively). So is it that you need defense to win or that you need a very dominant big man(amare need not apply) who can anchor the middle. It used to be in the 80's that you couldnt win if you had 2 defensive role players in your starting lineup. Times have changed meet the spurs. Times changed as the rules change and in the 90's more physicality on defense was permitted without calls. As in this decade, when the hand check rule was written and sometimes applied. As rules change the winning strategy will change. The success of flopping in the NBA has led to a new generation of floppers int he NBA. Flopping would get you beat in the 80's.
Its funny how sport changes and people resist the change. In football it used to be you cant win without a dominant running game, then the 46 defense cam along and shut out the run. Then the west coast offense(not dependent on a great running back) burned the 46. Defenses and strategies change and evolve with rule changes.
So DA took a 29 win team and averaged 57 wins for 4 years but didnt win against Tim Duncan and the spurs with their 3 all stars. Is it that Duncan was just the best big in the game, surely the best defensive teams fell to the spurs, with perhaps the offensive minded mavs being the only team to beat them in the WC playoffs recently. Sometimes you can weave any story that you want and fit the data to it, its self prophecy.
It used to be you needed good pitching to win in baseball, but that was disproven a few times(cincinatti reds, 74,75) as well. Absolutes in sport are not enduring, they will fall. In the first four years of its existence how was the triangle offense working? Any championships at that time? Some types like todays suns fans would probably have opined: "its too complicated, it'll never work in the NBA with these players". Malone and stockton never won a championship, neither has sloan. Does this mean that sloan will never win with his system? There is a much larger body of data that says sloan will never win with his style, than DA with SSOL, 19 years worth compared with 5.
Its also funny how players say the system is the issue and not the players. Would the tex winter/PJ triangle win a championship in the 90's without even just scotty Pippen( no way). Personnel plus the system equals the potential output of a team.
It sure is possible that any starting 5 the suns will field that has amare and nash on it cannot defend well enough to win a title, but what does that say about SSOL? I am willing to bet that the atlanta hawks, as currently constituted plus DJ augustin could win an NBA championship using SSOL in two to three years. They are young athletic and skilled as a team. They have much better defensive skills at every position than the suns. Watching them play against the celtics, its not too hard to imagine with a more efficient offense and their current defense that they could win.
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D'Antoni responds to criticism of lack of defensive emphasis:
"I know one thing for sure. We averaged 58 wins in four years. So 58 times a year, we were the best defensive team on the floor. I know that. From there, I think every coach tries to coach both sides of the ball. You want to be the best defensive coach and best offensive coach but a lot of times your players dictate one is better than the other. We just try to put our players in the best position to win, whether it's offensively or defensively. To be honest with you, we were really good offensively so practices and thought and coaching time and film work is all on the defensive end. It wasn't from lack fo trying. I think our guys get a little bit of a bad rap in Phoenix that we didn't play defense. You don't win 31 road games without playing defense or rebound or moving the basketball. I think our guys did a great jobs. I'm proud of them. That's not going to be an issue."
http://www.azcentral.com/members/Blog/PaulCoro/23439
Also, Reinsdorf on D'Antoni:
"He said he felt he didn’t have the defensive players in Phoenix to be a defensive team."
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=hesaidhesaiddantonireins
"I know one thing for sure. We averaged 58 wins in four years. So 58 times a year, we were the best defensive team on the floor. I know that. From there, I think every coach tries to coach both sides of the ball. You want to be the best defensive coach and best offensive coach but a lot of times your players dictate one is better than the other. We just try to put our players in the best position to win, whether it's offensively or defensively. To be honest with you, we were really good offensively so practices and thought and coaching time and film work is all on the defensive end. It wasn't from lack fo trying. I think our guys get a little bit of a bad rap in Phoenix that we didn't play defense. You don't win 31 road games without playing defense or rebound or moving the basketball. I think our guys did a great jobs. I'm proud of them. That's not going to be an issue."
http://www.azcentral.com/members/Blog/PaulCoro/23439
Also, Reinsdorf on D'Antoni:
"He said he felt he didn’t have the defensive players in Phoenix to be a defensive team."
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=hesaidhesaiddantonireins
JCSunsfan
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Is it possible that the reason DAntoni left was NOT because mgmt had lost confidence in him, but rather because HE had lost confidence in mgmt.
Kerr seems to me to be a reluctant GM who doesn't really know what he is doing, Sarver is worse.
Kerr seems to me to be a reluctant GM who doesn't really know what he is doing, Sarver is worse.
LOL. Someone should tell Hollinger that if you look like a 14-year-old dweeb, you'd better not write like a 14-year-old dweeb, or else everyone will think that you're ... well ... a 14-year-old dweeb.
"Baking powder," WTF?
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We have a winner. JCSunsfan you are on a roll with some good posts. :notworthy
nashman
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^ I would agree with the above, I think he knows they don't know what the hell they are doing so he got out and got paid in the process, and is going to work for a knowledgable GM in NY.
nowagimp
Registered User
Kerr didnt hire DA, BC did, so DA was like the bastard stepchild of suns management after BC left. When you hire someone in management, they back you and you back them, pretty much regardless. When the man who brought you in gets axed, well, lets just say the clock is ticking on your tenure. DA knew that Kerr will protect his boys when the crap hits the fan, and DA would be left twisting in the wind unless the suns won the championship. he also knew he would have very little say in personnel and basketball decisions.
Donnie Walsh is regarded as one of the very best GM's in the NBA, sure that didnt hurt in the decision. Reinsdorf is an ass, he didnt want to pay PJ, Jordan or Pippen, or involve them int he bulls future, that says it all. DA would have been a fool to go to chicago. Because Donnie Walsh brought DA in and said publicly that he was his first choice, DA will have the full support of the knicks GM. Its easy to see that DA made the best business decision for his future, it wasnt even close considering the options.
OP
OP
Yuma
Suns are my Kryptonite!
I'm not saying he won't be successful in the EASTERN conference. There's only 2-3 teams that the Knicks have to worry about in the East. In fact, I bet he gets them in the playoffs NEXT season. That's not the point.
The point is they brought in Mike. Then they went and got him a PG that he needed for his system. At the time both PG and coach vowed to play out their run together. He turned his back on Nash and bailed when like you said "You were smart to leave." He never was going to get past his nemesis in SA, and now the Lakers and Hornets look as if they were going to make things rough on him in the next couple seasons. Pull the rip cord baby, I'm bailing out!
Next, after he couldn't win with just his PG, he was saying they needed a center. Viola, management went and got him the biggest center they could find! A guy with four championship rings! They even coincidentally had his contract status matched to Coach Mikes. So he had his MVP PG, and the MVP center he begged the Suns to get according to every article that mentions the Shaq trade. Basically he was telling management, you get me Shaq, I'll get you a title. Several articles say that management was leery of this trade but made it because of D'Antoni's enthusiasm for it.
So after management got him what he wanted, he couldn't win the Championship with it, he bailed. He got some constructive criticism from management? What $9 million dollar management position doesn't get some critique or outright criticism? The fans got mad he made a first round exit? He's an NBA coach! Suck it up! I remember Popovich got criticism when he first started coaching, but he didn't quit.
Everyone can bemoan we lost a winning coach. No argument from me on that. My beef isn't that we lost him, is that he QUIT on us! Even in his own words, he said he called Sarver and Kerr and said his heart wasn't in it and he didn't want to take their money. That HE wanted to coach elsewhere. It was his terms. He QUIT! No matter what he thought management, the fans, his players, or even his bartender said, he quit us!
nowagimp
Registered User
You missed some key things:
1) there is a difference between criticism and public criticism. Public criticism of management by the top dog is a no no unless you want to gut the guys power base and prepare for a jettison. This is whats called a displayed lack of support from the front office. How do you think this plays with the players and their buy in with their coach? And yet sarver said DA "lost the team". So he goes out and further guts his relation with his players by a public show of no support? Sarvers not that dumb, to undermine his coach like that and then want him to come back. Top management should never criticize the boss in front of his underlings, unless its over, he's gone.
2) Nobody quit on US, WE dont pay these guys and WE didnt hire them. WE dont determine their job security, WE are not even a factor there. As a matter of fact BC hired DA, so he didnt quit on his man at all, his man was already pushed out the door. As far as quitting or leaving, its part of every sport quit or be fired. NBA coaches have the shortest tenure of any job in the NBA. And did you hear sarver, he WANTED him to resign even if he wasnt offered a job from NY, chicago. I dont pretend to know everything that went on in these discussion and realize that we may never know. Many of your assertions require that you DO know. Hogwash, wake up and smell the coffee, none of us knows what went on, there is no reason for them to want to tell anyone the truth.
Some posters think because someone says something its proof of intent or reason. If you believe this, please dont vote in any election, do everyone a favor by removing yourself from the process. Sometimes the answers are evasive because they dont want to tell the whole story. Often its because everybody loses when you do.
So DA moved on in perhaps the highest turnover job in sports, get over it, it happens all the time.
Public statements aren't nearly as important as money. D'Antoni did not get what he wanted (and extension and a raise) which magnified all the internal stuff that was left over from the BC versus Sarver battles. Stronger support statements by Kerr and Sarver wouldn't have hurt, but IMHO made little difference.
BTW, D'Antoni had his chance to reconfigure his roster and basically blew it. Yes, he was busy with team USA, but he seemed pretty uninterested in the GM stuff. Instead, he was one of the key reasons the Suns ended up overpaying Diaw since he was just not aware of what he real market value was.
BTW, D'Antoni had his chance to reconfigure his roster and basically blew it. Yes, he was busy with team USA, but he seemed pretty uninterested in the GM stuff. Instead, he was one of the key reasons the Suns ended up overpaying Diaw since he was just not aware of what he real market value was.
OP
OP
Yuma
Suns are my Kryptonite!
None of what you said changes the fact D'Antoni quit! Mike D'Antoni said it himself this week in interviews. Read and make yourself informed, or else do us a favor and don't vote!
Just because Mike himself says he quit, I should think otherwise? Why would he say anything different now that he works for someone else? You're right, none of us knows what went on. So what do we talk about? We talk about what is being said, both directly in papers, in interviews, and by insiders behind the scenes. No, I can't read Sarver's mind. Your argument that we can't quote what is being said because we can't read minds, in essence, is not a good argument. This is a sports forum. We talk about what we read and see. It's not a courtroom.
No WE didn't hire anyone. The WE I am talking about is the Suns nation, fans, management, players, coaches! Planet Orange! Yes he quit on ALL of us! Either you are on Planet Orange, or you aren't.
Cheesewater
(ex-Uriah Heep)
Prediction: Mike D'Antoni wins Coach of the Year next year.
OP
OP
Yuma
Suns are my Kryptonite!
I wouldn't debate that. Maybe whoever we hire gets considered. My prediction is we win the Championship the year AFTER D'Antoni leaves!
I'd need to know what roster changes are made before I take that bet.
I used to think Larry Brown was one of the top coaches in the NBA and these guys totally quit on him. I'm still curious about what Mike is going to do that Larry didn't.
JCSunsfan
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Stephon Marbury is uncoachable. He also does not run. He wouldn't do it here, why would he do it now?
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