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Ouchie-Z-Clown

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You know more than Fitz about leadership on a football field? No you actually don’t. Fitz led by example which is what a true leader does. True leaders garner respect and you would be hard pressed to find a more respected player by his peers than Larry Fitzgerald.
Lol. You’re mistaking talent and respect for leadership. And leadership is a trait that transcends industry or sport. The same people that occupy leadership positions in business are typically that did so in clubs, schools, and sports throughout their lives. There really aren’t different types of leadership. There are different types of leaders, but leadership is leadership. I’m sorry you’re unfamiliar with this concept, and perhaps you’ve never experienced really good leadership otherwise you’d know how faulty your statements have been.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Leadership comes in a variety of forms. Larry was not the type of “leader” who would scream and yell, punch chalk boards and knock over tables. Larry was the type of leader who led thru example, not words…though, there are many players (Cardinal players and dudes from other teams) who credit Larry for having a massive impact on them, professionally and personally, as a result of one on one/private conversations and the relationships that were created.
In short, Larry is quite astute on the Leadership topic and can identify a quality leader more quickly than most.
I have zero doubt that he sized up Kyler and concluded, he ain’t got “it.”
Again, leadership is leadership. There are different types of leaders. The so-called “leaders by example” aren’t really “leaders” if that’s the full extent of their alleged “leadership.” What they are, are performers. High performers. Leaders rely on those people for both performance and examples, but they aren’t leaders. Larry was a tremendous teammate and a high performer, but it’s questionable whether he was a leader. He wasn’t often talked about as such, we have few examples of it over a VERY lengthy career, and just because he received an inordinate amount of attention over his career and was the face of the cardinals doesn’t make him a leader. This is a classic mistake that laypersons make when trying to identify leadership. Great player, who played hard, and stayed outta trouble doesn’t mean leader of men.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Leadership comes in a variety of forms. Larry was not the type of “leader” who would scream and yell, punch chalk boards and knock over tables. Larry was the type of leader who led thru example, not words…though, there are many players (Cardinal players and dudes from other teams) who credit Larry for having a massive impact on them, professionally and personally, as a result of one on one/private conversations and the relationships that were created.
In short, Larry is quite astute on the Leadership topic and can identify a quality leader more quickly than most.
I have zero doubt that he sized up Kyler and concluded, he ain’t got “it.”
Btw, you can be a vocal and effective leader without yelling, punching chalk boards and knocking over tables. Whomever put the thought in your head that you can lead by example or that as the alternative doesn’t know much about leadership either.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Fitz not a leader? :lmao:
:hammer:

He's the first one I remember running to and giving the football to the ref to save time in the hurry up at the end of the game.

Now everyone does it. Leads by example.
Lol. Perfect example. That’s not leadership, that’s understanding the rules and being a competitor.
 

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I think people with credentials are worth listening to their opinions. I should add it’s not just Murray. Clearly this team has almost every problem it’s possible to have. They also have a bad coach, a weak GM and a clueless owner. It couldn’t get much worse. That said I do believe Murray is part of the problem, not the solution, unless he changes his ways. I’m on record saying keep Murray and find a better coach. Secondly tell Keim unless he can fix the problems on both trenches, he needs to join Kingsbury in leaving. This won’t be fixed in one year, but you’ve got to start now. I‘ve come to agree with those suggesting Flores if he’ll take the job. Start there; pay whatever it takes!

Joe Burrow has a weak HC and clueless owner and GM but still made the super bowl. He even has a dog crap O line too.

A QB is far more important that all those things. As I've said before even average QB play gets us 3 more wins and nobody is talking about any of this stuff.
 

82CardsGrad

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Btw, you can be a vocal and effective leader without yelling, punching chalk boards and knocking over tables. Whomever put the thought in your head that you can lead by example or that as the alternative doesn’t know much about leadership either.
Didn’t mean to suggest there can’t be vocal leaders who don’t yell, punch chalk boards and turn over tables…
Nobody put that in my head.
And, I feel very certain that as a person who played competitive sports thru and post college, and who has been a leader in the business world for more than two decades, I possess a sound and complete grasp of the topic of Leadership.
 

PJ1

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Lol. You’re mistaking talent and respect for leadership. And leadership is a trait that transcends industry or sport. The same people that occupy leadership positions in business are typically that did so in clubs, schools, and sports throughout their lives. There really aren’t different types of leadership. There are different types of leaders, but leadership is leadership. I’m sorry you’re unfamiliar with this concept, and perhaps you’ve never experienced really good leadership otherwise you’d know how faulty your statements have been.
Actually the concept is lost on you. As I stated Fitz was a leader that led by example. People like you are seen through very easily with their criticism of anyone that doesn’t agree with them. Actually a trait you never see in a good leader. People don’t follow those who tell them what a leader is. They follow those who show them.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Didn’t mean to suggest there can’t be vocal leaders who don’t yell, punch chalk boards and turn over tables…
Nobody put that in my head.
And, I feel very certain that as a person who played competitive sports thru and post college, and who has been a leader in the business world for more than two decades, I possess a sound and complete grasp of the topic of Leadership.
And do you believe that a leader is someone who only really “leads by example?” Can such a “leader” actually lead a company, an organization, a team successfully?
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Actually the concept is lost on you. As I stated Fitz was a leader that led by example. People like you are seen through very easily with their criticism of anyone that doesn’t agree with them. Actually a trait you never see in a good leader. People don’t follow those who tell them what a leader is. They follow those who show them.
Lol. I’m not being a leader in this board. This is just further evidence that you don’t understand leadership.

Let me ask you, in the absence of any other leader do you think any organization can be successful with only a “lead by example” guy? A CEO that only leads by example for instance? The answer is “no” because that isn’t leadership. Once again it’s performance. It’s necessary for success, but it’s not leadership.
 

Chopper0080

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Actually the concept is lost on you. As I stated Fitz was a leader that led by example. People like you are seen through very easily with their criticism of anyone that doesn’t agree with them. Actually a trait you never see in a good leader. People don’t follow those who tell them what a leader is. They follow those who show them.
Leading by example is utter lip service. Big difference between showing and teaching. Between leaving the person to make their own decision vs holding them accountable to meeting your standard.
 

PJ1

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Lol. I’m not being a leader in this board. This is just further evidence that you don’t understand leadership.

Let me ask you, in the absence of any other leader do you think any organization can be successful with only a “lead by example” guy? A CEO that only leads by example for instance? The answer is “no” because that isn’t leadership. Once again it’s performance. It’s necessary for success, but it’s not leadership.
Of course not. Leading by example is one form of leadership. A vocal leader is another. And leading by example is a form of leadership and if you don’t believe so you don’t know what you are talking about. A leader sets achievable goals for an organization and evaluates personnel fairly. What a leader doesn’t due is make excuses and complain.
 

PJ1

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Leading by example is utter lip service. Big difference between showing and teaching. Between leaving the person to make their own decision vs holding them accountable to meeting your standard.
Actually leading by example is the opposite of lip service. Preaching and not demonstrating is lip service.
 

PJ1

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I feel like people on this board think being great at their sport = being a great leader.
Actually not at all. Many times the lesser players make better coaches and managers as they relate better to all levels of skill and abilities.
 

PJ1

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Lol. Perfect example. That’s not leadership, that’s understanding the rules and being a competitor.
That you come to this conclusion by watching Fitz taking control in a crucial situation says it all. They all know the rules. He is taking over as leaders will do when leadership is lacking. As in Kliff and KM panicking and displaying no leadership.
 

82CardsGrad

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And do you believe that a leader is someone who only really “leads by example?” Can such a “leader” actually lead a company, an organization, a team successfully?
Why would you ask if I believe a leader is someone who “only” leads by example, when I clearly said leadership comes in a variety of forms?

As for your question, “can a leader who leads by example, lead a company…,” you’re setting up a scenario I did not intend to imply.
When I mentioned how Larry leads by example, I didn’t mean to imply Larry never spoke. In fact, I later referenced how many teammates and players from other teams credit Larry for having a huge impact on their lives.

I personally believe you can’t be a leader of anything, if you aren’t a good to great communicator.
But make no mistake…great leaders are defined far more by their actions, than by their words. Ideally, their actions and words illustrate symmetry and consistency - which leads to trustworthiness. So if a “leader” isn’t trustworthy… if they fail to act when the situation requires appropriate action, or, when their words demonstrate disconnection from their actions, or worse, their words indicate someone who is unstable and disconnected from reality - that person loses the trust of those whom he/she is leading…
 
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Some guys who do the job way above the typical player automatically become leaders by setting that example. Fitzgerald was not demonstrative, but he clearly played to win and was willing to put his body on the line when blocking downfield. He never hesitated to take on bigger, stronger players to help his teammates succeed. He was a leader and well respected by his fellow Cardinals and most of his opponents.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Why would you ask if I believe a leader is someone who “only” leads by example, when I clearly said leadership comes in a variety of forms?

As for your question, “can a leader who leads by example, lead a company…,” you’re setting up a scenario I did not intend to imply.
When I mentioned how Larry leads by example, I didn’t mean to imply Larry never spoke. In fact, I later referenced how many teammates and players from other teams credit Larry for having a huge impact on their lives.

I personally believe you can’t be a leader of anything, if you aren’t a good to great communicator.
But make no mistake…great leaders are defined far more by their actions, than by their words. Ideally, their actions and words illustrate symmetry and consistency - which leads to trustworthiness. So if a “leader” isn’t trustworthy… if they fail to act when the situation requires appropriate action, or, when their words demonstrate disconnection from their actions, or worse, their words indicate someone who is unstable and disconnected from reality - that person loses the trust of those whom he/she is leading…
The performance of an individual is a baseline trait of a leader. It does not make one a leader. My point is, one cannot be a leader if their only trait is performance. That’s why the whole “leads by example” is bs. If the only “leadership” (and I put that in quotes purposefully) trait they possess is their performance then they aren’t a leader, they are a performer. Leadership encapsulates so much more than performance.

Leadership is being accountable and holding accountable

Leadership is setting goals, both short term and long term and those attainable and those stretch.

Leadership is providing vision and direction at both a macro level and micro level.

Leadership is knowing your people, and how to motivate them and better yet knowing how to avoid turning them off.

Leadership is creating efficiencies for your team and removing hurdles from their success.

Leadership is two way communication and providing recognition but also providing redirection and getting rid of problems when they aren’t remediable.

Leadership is protected ting your brand, your customer, your employee/team when appropriate.

Leadership is taking the reins when necessary but allowing, encouraging, and facilitating the growth of leadership beneath you.

Yes, as a leader you have to perform, otherwise none of the above can occur because those looking to follow won’t do so if they don’t believe you are capable. But again, make no mistake, performance is not, by itself, leadership. And hence the fallacy of “leads by examples is merely a catchy phrase someone made up to give a high performer some level of recognition.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Some guys who do the job way above the typical player automatically become leaders by setting that example. Fitzgerald was not demonstrative, but he clearly played to win and was willing to put his body on the line when blocking downfield. He never hesitated to take on bigger, stronger players to help his teammates succeed. He was a leader and well respected by his fellow Cardinals and most of his opponents.
We will just have to disagree. He was definitely well-respected . . . for his performance. And some of that performance was the sacrifice of taking on bigger players. But make no mistake, that’s still just performance.
 

ajcardfan

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Hell of a chance that Kyler gets another chance here with a new head coach. Maybe a new GM too.

No chance either Kliff or Keim gets a shot here with another QB.
 

ajcardfan

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Some guys who do the job way above the typical player automatically become leaders by setting that example. Fitzgerald was not demonstrative, but he clearly played to win and was willing to put his body on the line when blocking downfield. He never hesitated to take on bigger, stronger players to help his teammates succeed. He was a leader and well respected by his fellow Cardinals and most of his opponents.
True. And there were still plenty of people calling him a wuss compared to Boldin because Boldin would get all emotional and yell. And you probably well remember, the last three or so years as he was signing those one year deals, there were plenty of people saying, on this board, he wasn't much of a leader.
 

PJ1

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True. And there were still plenty of people calling him a wuss compared to Boldin because Boldin would get all emotional and yell. And you probably well remember, the last three or so years as he was signing those one year deals, there were plenty of people saying, on this board, he wasn't much of a leader.
Never saw any poster here saying Fitz was a wuss. Until the last couple of days never heard any poster say he wasn’t a leader on the field. Fitz evaluating whether he wanted to play another year after the season was over is common for a player at the end of his career.
 

82CardsGrad

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The performance of an individual is a baseline trait of a leader. It does not make one a leader. My point is, one cannot be a leader if their only trait is performance. That’s why the whole “leads by example” is bs. If the only “leadership” (and I put that in quotes purposefully) trait they possess is their performance then they aren’t a leader, they are a performer. Leadership encapsulates so much more than performance.

Leadership is being accountable and holding accountable

Leadership is setting goals, both short term and long term and those attainable and those stretch.

Leadership is providing vision and direction at both a macro level and micro level.

Leadership is knowing your people, and how to motivate them and better yet knowing how to avoid turning them off.

Leadership is creating efficiencies for your team and removing hurdles from their success.

Leadership is two way communication and providing recognition but also providing redirection and getting rid of problems when they aren’t remediable.

Leadership is protected ting your brand, your customer, your employee/team when appropriate.

Leadership is taking the reins when necessary but allowing, encouraging, and facilitating the growth of leadership beneath you.

Yes, as a leader you have to perform, otherwise none of the above can occur because those looking to follow won’t do so if they don’t believe you are capable. But again, make no mistake, performance is not, by itself, leadership. And hence the fallacy of “leads by examples is merely a catchy phrase someone made up to give a high performer some level of recognition.
Yep… Agree with most of what you put out there. There’s more, but a discussion on leadership deserves its own thread and frankly, even then I’m pretty sure you and I won’t be seeing eye to eye in the end.
I feel pretty confident I broadened my posts such that, you shouldn’t feel the need to stress your “leadership isn’t just about performance” point…
But since you did make that point more than once, just know my comment about how a leader acts, had virtually nothing to do with how a leader “performs.”
Actions, in the context of my posts, is more about character and behaviors that create and strengthen trust. Leadership actions, especially in an organization/company, are typically measured in terms of how the organization/company performs - not the leader. Yet, it’s the actions of a leader that are measured in the context of how those actions play an integral role in the broader performance of the whole.

In summary, Larry Fitzgerald, though more reserved than many other highly publicized leaders, was a leader nonetheless. I’m certain if you were to ask teammates and players from other teams who knew Larry, as well as Cards coaches and coaches around the league, they would describe Larry as a leader.
 
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ajcardfan

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Never saw any poster here saying Fitz was a wuss. Until the last couple of days never heard any poster say he wasn’t a leader on the field. Fitz evaluating whether he wanted to play another year after the season was over is common for a player at the end of his career.
I am going way back on that one. Pre 2008. There are some parallels with how Larry was talked about, and argued over, his first 3 or 4 seasons and how Murray is talked about now.

Maybe someone can link some the old Fitz threads from back in his early years. I will try, but there are people way better at these searches than me.
 

cheesebeef

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I am going way back on that one. Pre 2008. There are some parallels with how Larry was talked about, and argued over, his first 3 or 4 seasons and how Murray is talked about now.

Maybe someone can link some the old Fitz threads from back in his early years. I will try, but there are people way better at these searches than me.
I remember some of those discussions. And I remember being one of the people who criticized Fitz during his second and third seasons for not getting the most of his game because he Wasn’t fighting for extra yards and blocking. Took a torrent of crap for it too.

2007 things changed and Fitz credited both Warner and Haley with teaching him that he could get by and be very good based on his natural talent, but he’d never be great until he put his entire being into the game. That started to change during the first season with Wiz and then cemented forever in 2008.
 

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