Wk 13 Arizona Cardinals off season. 4/4/23-4/9/23

[cardsfanmd]

Right? It’s the type of draft you speak about for decades. How many Fitz/dansby/dockett drafts have we had . . . one in my memory. Because they just don’t happen often.

I see what you’re saying but that’s a terrible analogy.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

That list that I put together included players who made significant contributions as rookies in 2022. So no not all that I listed were "Starter Quality" their rookie season but the majority listed were.

With that said, just because a player didn't contribute as much his rookie year doesn't mean that down the road he won't be Starter Quality. For example I didn't list WR Jameson Williams of the Lions as a significant contributor his rookie season. Williams sat out most of 2022 as he recovered from his ACL injury that he suffered during the National Championship game. However I believe that he will eventually be starter quality as he returns to full health.

Other players from that class will need time to grow at the NFL level and could eventually become starter quality. The Jets Jermaine Johnson comes to mind as he was more of a rotational guy behind a deep Jets DL. That is why I didn't include Johnson on that list but I believe he will contribute more as he gets NFL experience and more playing time. In fact a lot of people wanted the Cards to draft Johnson last year.

You’re kinda proving our point. You’re now talking about draft picks that you expect to be good. Everyone is spectacular that of their picks. It doesn’t happen with enoug frequency to count in it. Again, show me another cards draft where we got a Fitz, dansby, dockett. I’ll wait.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I see what you’re saying but that’s a terrible analogy.

It’s not analogy. It’s facts. In 35 seasons in Phoenix what’s the next best draft?

Arguably it’s one of:

Humphries
Gikden
David Johnson

Kyler
Murphy
Allen

DRC
Calais
Doucet
Hightower

Boldin
Pace
Hayes

Big
KVB
Adrian Wilson

But most of these the 3rd guy is just okay (may not have started many other places), and many of these players took multiple season before they showed anything (and often on their second team). So maybe six times in 35 years we get a decent class.
(Man, looking at the 90s we would have one or two good players and then just garbage)

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/crd/draft.htm

 

[kerouac9]

It’s not analogy. It’s facts. In 35 seasons in Phoenix what’s the next best draft?

Arguably it’s one of:

Humphries
Gikden
David Johnson

Kyler
Murphy
Allen

DRC
Calais
Doucet
Hightower

Boldin
Pace
Hayes

Big
KVB
Adrian Wilson

But most of these the 3rd guy is just okay (may not have started many other places), and many of these players took multiple season before they showed anything (and often on their second team). So maybe six times in 35 years we get a decent class.
(Man, looking at the 90s we would have one or two good players and then just garbage)

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/crd/draft.htm

Yeah. The average draft class is one above-average starter and two replacement-level players.

To essentially triple that in Montis first draft (when he was running pro personnel at his last job with a team who drafted so poorly his boss got fired) feels outlandish.

 

[MadCardDisease]

You’re kinda proving our point. You’re now talking about draft picks that you expect to be good. Everyone is spectacular that of their picks. It doesn’t happen with enoug frequency to count in it. Again, show me another cards draft where we got a Fitz, dansby, dockett. I’ll wait.

News Flash! There are other teams in the draft besides the Cardinals.

Just because Keim has failed in the draft doesn't mean that all of the other teams did. I just listed 7 teams that all drafted at least 3 quality starters during the 2022 draft. You all keep saying that it is near impossible.

Now I'm not saying that it is easy to do. However I fully believe that the Cardinal are in position to get at least 3 quality starters out of this draft based on their current draft position. Factor in that Keim and McDonough are no longer making the calls and there is some hope.

 

[MadCardDisease]

You’re kinda proving our point. You’re now talking about draft picks that you expect to be good.

That was on top of the Starters that I had already listed.

Look at the Jets.

Sauce Garder ELITE Starter
Garrett Wilson ELITE Starter
Breese Hall ELITE Starter
Michael Clemmons Rotational
Jermaine Johnson Rotational

That is a pretty amazing draft. Three Elite starters that could potentially be at least 5 quality starters when Clemmons and Johnson get more reps. But no it's impossible I guess.

Now look at the Lions.

Hutch ELITE Starter
Malcom Rodriguez Starter
Kerby Joseph Starter
James Houston Rotational
Jameson Williams Injured

The Lions came away with an Elite starter in Hutchinson and two other Starters. I brought up that I expect Williams to be good because many had him as the top WR in the draft before tearing his ACL. But no the Cardinals can only get 1 starter out of the draft...

 

[Stout]

That was on top of the Starters that I had already listed.

Look at the Jets.

Sauce Garder ELITE Starter
Garrett Wilson ELITE Starter
Breese Hall ELITE Starter
Michael Clemmons Rotational
Jermaine Johnson Rotational

That is a pretty amazing draft. Three Elite starters that could potentially be at least 5 quality starters when Clemmons and Johnson get more reps. But no it's impossible I guess.

Now look at the Lions.

Hutch ELITE Starter
Malcom Rodriguez Starter
Kerby Joseph Starter
James Houston Rotational
Jameson Williams Injured

The Lions came away with an Elite starter in Hutchinson and two other Starters. I brought up that I expect Williams to be good because many had him as the top WR in the draft before tearing his ACL. But no the Cardinals can only get 1 starter out of the draft...

Let's not get too far onto the hopium. Not only can't we expect an elite draft, we can't expect anything approaching that. Anything beyond a run-of-the-mill success rate draft is gravy, IMO. Get our elite starter in Anderson and do our best to get starters from there.

 

[kerouac9]

Breese Hall ELITE Starter

LOL. On track for like 900 yards and only played nine games.

ELITE.

 

[cardsfanmd]

It’s not analogy. It’s facts. In 35 seasons in Phoenix what’s the next best draft?

Arguably it’s one of:

Humphries
Gikden
David Johnson

Kyler
Murphy
Allen

DRC
Calais
Doucet
Hightower

Boldin
Pace
Hayes

Big
KVB
Adrian Wilson

But most of these the 3rd guy is just okay (may not have started many other places), and many of these players took multiple season before they showed anything (and often on their second team). So maybe six times in 35 years we get a decent class.
(Man, looking at the 90s we would have one or two good players and then just garbage)

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/crd/draft.htm

What I was saying was that Fitz, Dansby and Dockett were just “starter level players”.

 

[Chopper0080]

That list that I put together included players who made significant contributions as rookies in 2022. So no not all that I listed were "Starter Quality" their rookie season but the majority listed were.

With that said, just because a player didn't contribute as much his rookie year doesn't mean that down the road he won't be Starter Quality. For example I didn't list WR Jameson Williams of the Lions as a significant contributor his rookie season. Williams sat out most of 2022 as he recovered from his ACL injury that he suffered during the National Championship game. However I believe that he will eventually be starter quality as he returns to full health.

Other players from that class will need time to grow at the NFL level and could eventually become starter quality. The Jets Jermaine Johnson comes to mind as he was more of a rotational guy behind a deep Jets DL. That is why I didn't include Johnson on that list but I believe he will contribute more as he gets NFL experience and more playing time. In fact a lot of people wanted the Cards to draft Johnson last year.

Josh Jones would like a word.

 

[Chopper0080]

That was on top of the Starters that I had already listed.

Look at the Jets.

Sauce Garder ELITE Starter
Garrett Wilson ELITE Starter
Breese Hall ELITE Starter
Michael Clemmons Rotational
Jermaine Johnson Rotational

That is a pretty amazing draft. Three Elite starters that could potentially be at least 5 quality starters when Clemmons and Johnson get more reps. But no it's impossible I guess.

Now look at the Lions.

Hutch ELITE Starter
Malcom Rodriguez Starter
Kerby Joseph Starter
James Houston Rotational
Jameson Williams Injured

The Lions came away with an Elite starter in Hutchinson and two other Starters. I brought up that I expect Williams to be good because many had him as the top WR in the draft before tearing his ACL. But no the Cardinals can only get 1 starter out of the draft...

The Jets had a really good draft class. Given.

Here is where I struggle...Malcolm Rodriguez wasn't "good". He started because of poor positional depth. He was a replacement level LB. Kerby was good. Houstan wsa meh. So, in one of your best draft classes, the team got two really good starters in Aidan and Kerby at key spots, one injured high draft pick, and two off-ball LBs.

 

[Goodyear Card]

Cardinals to host Louisville CB Kei’Trel Clark for top-30 visit

Clark is one of the Cardinals' 30 official visits before the draft.

sports.yahoo.com

 

[kerouac9]

The Jets had a really good draft class. Given.

They also had an absurd four picks in the top 36 and no picks after the fourth round.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

News Flash! There are other teams in the draft besides the Cardinals.

Just because Keim has failed in the draft doesn't mean that all of the other teams did. I just listed 7 teams that all drafted at least 3 quality starters during the 2022 draft. You all keep saying that it is near impossible.

Now I'm not saying that it is easy to do. However I fully believe that the Cardinal are in position to get at least 3 quality starters out of this draft based on their current draft position. Factor in that Keim and McDonough are no longer making the calls and there is some hope.

Yeah sorry I disagree with your analysis on those players. So i think the very basis for your argument is flawed. But even outside of that, EVERY team starts with three selections in the first three rounds. So every team is “in a position to get at least 3 quality starters out of” every draft. And yet it’s rare.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

That was on top of the Starters that I had already listed.

Look at the Jets.

Sauce Garder ELITE Starter
Garrett Wilson ELITE Starter
Breese Hall ELITE Starter
Michael Clemmons Rotational
Jermaine Johnson Rotational

That is a pretty amazing draft. Three Elite starters that could potentially be at least 5 quality starters when Clemmons and Johnson get more reps. But no it's impossible I guess.

Now look at the Lions.

Hutch ELITE Starter
Malcom Rodriguez Starter
Kerby Joseph Starter
James Houston Rotational
Jameson Williams Injured

The Lions came away with an Elite starter in Hutchinson and two other Starters. I brought up that I expect Williams to be good because many had him as the top WR in the draft before tearing his ACL. But no the Cardinals can only get 1 starter out of the draft...

A) there’s the typical BS made up argument. Had to come eventually. No one said it’s impossible to get more than one. Ever. No one. Congrats on succumbing to the lowest level of argumentation.

B) sauce and Wilson were both firsts. And it’s a rarity. Find other drafts where two firsts for a team resulted in elite play. And we can’t even really call 83-1100-4 “elite,” can we? Really? It’s a terrific rookie year.

C) again no one said it never happens. But these drafts are really rare. To expect it, or build your roster building strategy around it, is foolhardy.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

LOL. On track for like 900 yards and only played nine games.

ELITE.

Exactly.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

What I was saying was that Fitz, Dansby and Dockett were just “starter level players”.

No one ever said that.

But let’s look at them:

Fitz - HOF
Dansby - never made a pro bowl
Dockett - made one pro bowl

And yet it was still our best draft ever. None even come close imo.

 

[HairZach]

LOL. On track for like 900 yards and only played nine games.

ELITE.

I think Breese is special, he was most of their offense when Zach Wilson was in. Once Breese got hurt the Jets decided to start using the real QBs on their roster.

 

[kerouac9]

I think Breese is special, he was most of their offense when Zach Wilson was in. Once Breese got hurt the Jets decided to start using the real QBs on their roster.

Okay but his stats look like Andre Ellingtons so let’s maybe give him a year before we put him in the elite class?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Okay but his stats look like Andre Ellingtons so let’s maybe give him a year before we put him in the elite class?

Right. If you want to make a point you gotta use a three year old draft imo. Too many flash in the pans.

 

[MadCardDisease]

But even outside of that, EVERY team starts with three selections in the first three rounds. So every team is “in a position to get at least 3 quality starters out of” every draft. And yet it’s rare.

What I am saying is there is a huge advantage drafting at:

#3, #34 and #66

Vs

#30, #61 and #93

 

[dreamcastrocks]

No one ever said that.

But let’s look at them:

Fitz - HOF
Dansby - never made a pro bowl
Dockett - made one pro bowl

And yet it was still our best draft ever. None even come close imo.

That is its own argument. He belonged in at least 1.

 

[MadCardDisease]

Right. If you want to make a point you gotta use a three year old draft imo. Too many flash in the pans.

Ok I went back to 2020 and looked at the Vikings draft:

Justin Jefferson - Elite Starter
Ezra Cleveland - Starter
KJ Osborn - Starter
Cameron Dantzler - Starter
Jeff Gladney - Traded/RIP
DJ Wonnom - Rotational
James Lynch - Rotational
Troy Dye - Special Teams
Blake Brandel - Backup
Josh Metellus - ST/Backup

 

[Dayman]

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[Stout]

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