Week 2 2022: Heroes and Goats

dreamcastrocks

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Well Kyler is certainly polarizing. Calling someone that wide open is silly. That should be a pretty easy throw for any QB with Kylers level of talent as a thrower.
Always will be. I wouldn't be surprised if he were still polarizing if we won the SB.
 

Russ Smith

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And to @kerouac9 overall point on Kyler. In the first halves of his past 8 games, Kyler has led the Cardinals to 4 TD scoring drives, combined. His slow starts are becoming an absolute trend.

So the question becomes is that the scheme or is he just better at winging it than executing the scheme?
 

dreamcastrocks

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And to @kerouac9 overall point on Kyler. In the first halves of his past 8 games, Kyler has led the Cardinals to 4 TD scoring drives, combined. His slow starts are becoming an absolute trend.
I think that is something to improve on for sure.

I just don't see how Vance can get a hero status and Kyler a goat. There is no rationality here.
 
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kerouac9

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I think that is something to improve on for sure.

I just don't see how Vance can get a hero status and Kyler a goat. There is no rationality here.

Kyler was the 24th-ranked quarterback in Week 2 -- squeezed between Daniel Jones and Mitchell Trubisky.

...It may surprise you to learn that he had the NFL's worst numbers as a passer—and I stress those words, AS A PASSER—in the red zone (well, before Monday night, at least). He threw 10 passes inside the Las Vegas 20-yard line, completing only two of them for 14 yards and a touchdown.
 

dreamcastrocks

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Jetstream Green

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Can one play and then rely on comebacks to win through out a season like Kyler Murray did, probably not, but this is about one game where one cannot forget the objective is winning. Kyler was no hero, and surely no goat, he was a freaking demi-god when it mattered most and why we won (and as a Cardinal fan I am no longer into what ifs one way or another, because the score is the only thing which will last). There is no QB I have every watched on the NFL level which pulled off the way Kyler did that from joystick scrambles to threading a pass few in the NFL are able to do... give it up for Frodo at the "Prancing Pony"
 

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Kyler was the 24th-ranked quarterback in Week 2 -- squeezed between Daniel Jones and Mitchell Trubisky.
This is very misleading. At least 3 of those red zone incompletions were drops (Green x2, Hollywood x1).
 

Harry

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My heroes are the refs who gave the Cards every marginal call and saved the game.

Kingsbury was my goat. It’s too bad he didn’t see the game as he didn’t have time to lift his eyes off his play sheet. The only time he seemed involved was when the team was so confused after a TO they were almost called for delay of game. Of course, that may have cost them a penalty record.
 

SO91

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So we are just going to ignore Kyler's first half performance?

Let me try it your way...

Bottom line is Kyler put his team in a first half hole again and people just want to find ways to not hold him accountable to it.
The RT was abused by Crosby on every play that killed the 3 drives we had in the first half. How much of that is on the QB, in your opinion?

For me:
First drive is done after Beachum gets abused with speed by Crosby and is on the QB when his back foot plants. Getting out of a 3rd and 14 hole highly unlikely, IMO.

Second drive with the intentional grounding again the RT is on his ass at Kyler's feet with Crosby within reach. Bad scramble and penalty. Probably could have hit Ertz on the break across the middle, but I don't know what the read was there.

Third drive with the INT again the pocket collapses, Crosby is within reach grabbing at his shoulder while they're only rushing 4. This one is on him. Escapes and throws a pick when maybe he should have tucked it and ran to the sideline. Good play by the DB.

Before those plays we were converting and moving the sticks. I didn't think it was a horrible first half display by the QB, or the playcalling.
 

jf-08

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i mostly disagree on this [lots of edits since i found the Cards video]


the video above switches to all-22 at :40 secs in the video -- AND has a running play clock embedded

lets Zapruder film this:

1. I think Darrel Williams (top right) needed to run his route deeper-- more to the top of the "A" to give room to go over the top of the Raider short zone defender. This, with 2 below is Kylers first read as he looks right at the snap (about 2.5 secs into the play).

2. Hollywood (short right side) isnt open. Decent chance that ball gets broken up, or, he is tackled without getting into the endzone

3. Kyler then looks to AJ Green in the back as he scans to the left.

4. Ertz is open -- he clears around 2.8 secs into the play. At 3.2 secs Kyler looks like he is pumping to go to Ertz. At 3.4 secs, Ertz is covered. Also, the Raider d-lineman you see comes free into his vision and Kyler pulls it down.

this play kinds sums up the variety of struggles. Decent play design, but (IMO) Williams doesnt quite run the route properly. Ertz does come open and Kyler needed to be .2 of a sec faster getting to (what looks like) his third read.
I really think the key for Murray to be able to run this in is shown in the NextGen Stats simulation at 0:18 where the Cards WR in the left of the EZ start to drag to the right, creating the void in the left of the endzone for Murray to attack.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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If he has good field vision he should see it regardless
Naw that’s not fair to any QB. No QB can see al routes at the same time, that’s why there are progressions. If Russ’ origina assumption was right, that it was a eft to right read, it is entirely possible that an earlier open receiver becomes covered by the time the progression reaches him -particularly if that read is across the entire field. It’s why just looking at a snapshot isn’t a fair analysis for a QB. That said, if Williams was his first or second read, yeah he seemed to have missed it.
 

Chopper0080

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So the question becomes is that the scheme or is he just better at winging it than executing the scheme?
I think Kyler is a sub-par rhythm and timing QB. I think that he is that because of his struggles with pre-snap and post-snap reads. Our scheme is a rhythm and timing scheme. Almost every offensive passing game is. I am not sure how much he reads pre-snap and then confirms post-snap. I say this because there are times where he predetermines where he is going with the ball pre-snap and then delivers the ball to that player despite the defense reacting to it. That is why so many of our short passes are immediately tackled. He doesn't confirm the read post-snap and move on to the next option. He is essentially the Ron Burgandy of QBs in this regard.

Kyler is definitely more comfortable winging it because the longer DBs have to cover, the more space is created. Kyler's biggest issue with this is that his footwork can get away from him which leads to some accuracy issues. (this happens to many QBs) This is why in week 1 he threw a ball on the move to AJ Green and AJ had to leap to the side to catch it.
 

dreamcastrocks

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For cleaning up a mess he created. However, he did the same thing vs the Chiefs and couldn't come back and make it competitive. Spotting the opposing team double digit leads is not a sustainable way to win.
Yes. For cleaning up the mess, he AND his defense created.
 

urs

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For cleaning up a mess he created. However, he did the same thing vs the Chiefs and couldn't come back and make it competitive. Spotting the opposing team double digit leads is not a sustainable way to win.
Kyler was terrible on offense AND defense in the first half. Does he get credit for holding them to 3 in the 2nd half too?
 

Chopper0080

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For those who feel like I am too negative regarding Kyler. The last drive is what the offense should really look like in terms of his execution. Quick timing and rhythm offense that wears defenses out and take occasional vertical shots when the line blocks it up. The shot to Brown in OT was a very good decision by Kyler and well executed outside of Brown not feeling the defensive player coming in to make a play. Brown has to know to just go to the ground with the ball as it is 4th down.
 

Arz101

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For those who feel like I am too negative regarding Kyler. The last drive is what the offense should really look like in terms of his execution. Quick timing and rhythm offense that wears defenses out and take occasional vertical shots when the line blocks it up. The shot to Brown in OT was a very good decision by Kyler and well executed outside of Brown not feeling the defensive player coming in to make a play. Brown has to know to just go to the ground with the ball as it is 4th down.
As long as earth is round, Kliff and Kyler can never run a rhythm offense. We have 3 years of evidence to back it up.
 

Chopper0080

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Yes. For cleaning up the mess, he AND his defense created.
If we lose 35-41, we can critique the defense. If Kyler could have kept the game competitive vs the Chiefs, the defense would have gotten the blame. Hell, even vs the Raiders, Kyler didn't win the game on offense, the maligned defense had to get the scoop and score.

Kyler's performance is not tied to the defense. The wins and losses can be, but not how he executes the offense. Again, we are making excuses for a 250 mil QB and it is absurd.
 

dreamcastrocks

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If we lose 35-41, we can critique the defense. If Kyler could have kept the game competitive vs the Chiefs, the defense would have gotten the blame. Hell, even vs the Raiders, Kyler didn't win the game on offense, the maligned defense had to get the scoop and score.

Kyler's performance is not tied to the defense. The wins and losses can be, but not how he executes the offense. Again, we are making excuses for a 250 mil QB and it is absurd.
No one is making excuses. Some of us are seeing the game as a whole and not only focused on the bad that Kyler did.
 

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