We need to trade for Phillip Rivers, NOW!

Arizona's Finest

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Now listen, I am all about getting the number one pick and drafting Matt Lienert. The reason we never have any success is because we don’t have an upper echelon QB. Now a team with no weapons and a bad line might make a good QB look bad, but the one consistent this team has never had is a franchise QB. Like a center in basketball, Franchise QB’s are pretty rare but when you happen upon one, things seem to immediately come together and thusly the most important position in football is covered for ten years.



Its much easier to build a team with a big time QB in place, than to keep band aiding the problem and trying to have your strengths come from else where. Tampa Bay is a good example of a team that if they had that franchise QB, they would have never gone into the three year downward spiral that they are only now getting out of. The defense and running game they had would have been playoff worthy, had they had the proper QB to run Grudens system. Conversely once Griese’s pact with the devil expires (likely next season) they will go back to mediocrity, even with Caddilac.



Ok so this is my point here. This team needs to take the steps necessary to get who ever they have evaluated to be the best prospect at that position. Knowing the Cardinals they will screw something up and we will somehow have to endure this season and STILL fall short of getting the first pick. So they need to take their destiny into their own hands and surprisingly there is a Franchise QB to be had…..



Phillip Rivers has most everything you want in a QB. Word is San Diego would have drafted him over Eli because they liked his arm and leadership qualities that much. Even in current story about Rivers on espn.com, you get the feeling this kid is just chomping at the bit and with his skills that is a very nice combination.



http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=smith_michael&id=2172056



Now that it looks like Warner is out for a while the team must start looking forward to making a run next year. Unfortunatly even with a stud like Matt Lienert, there is likely to be a learning curve that will keep us out of the playoffs yet again next year. So here is what the Cardinals need to do. Assuming they feel the same way about Rivers that most everybody does, they need to make a pre-emptive strike and overwhelm the Chargers with an offer to get him out here. I’m thinking Bryant Johnson, Calvin Pace and a 2007 first round draft pick and a 2006 second rounder would be enough where SD could justify it to their fans, while also improving this years playoff chances. No matter what you think of BJ, he is the second receiver on that team and Pace, while disappointing is an upgrade at defensive end for them as well.



So the Cardinals have Phillip Rivers for like 13 more games, giving him a year to learn Denny’s offense and acquire a rapport with Fitz and Boldin. It gives Denny time (because we are basically starting a back up QB) and I believe Rivers at the helm will be an upgrade over every QB we have had since moving to AZ. Then we have the luxury of spending our 1st pick on a player like Ferguson or Bush and immediately we have a playoff mix brewing. Add a MLB (not signing Hartwell was a HUGE mistake), some more offensive line help, and depending on which of the above two we draft, addressing that concern. Denny will have no excuses with that squad going into a new stadium and if he doesn’t get it done NEXT year then we bring in someone who can.



The key to this offseason lies in getting a QB for the present and future, or otherwise I feel we will be re hashing this scenario for the upcoming seasons until we do……



Thoughts????
 

CaptTurbo

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Here is a thought.

8 playoff years out of 9, or is it out of 10? Green made it to the playoffs with a different QB each year.
 

Pariah

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I'd wait until the off-season to see how things are shaking out. I still think there's a possibility the Chragers think they're going to keep Rivers and release Brees (just a hunch). Also, if we do have the number 1 pick, we take Leinhart, sign Warner to another year and not look back.
 

Russ Smith

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I saw him against SF in the preseason and was very underwhelmed. OVerall he had ok pre season numbers.

35-55 276 yards 63.5% 2 TD 2 INT, 5YPA, 73 QB rating.

They YPA number should jump off the page and hit you over the head with a ball peen hammer, if you're completing 64% and you're still averaging 5 yards per attempt, you're just dumping the ball off over and over, nothing downfield.

In the SF game, last preseason he was 12-19 for 129 yards 1 TD 2 picks and quite frankly he barely threw the ball downfield. He has the weird motion and the questionable arm strength, he's very smart, he's tough, he's a leader, there's a lot about him that makes sense to get him, but so far all he does in the NFL is dump the ball down to the RB or the underneath WR I'm not sure he's Green's type of player.

SD if they're smart would INSIST on our first round pick so you give up a shot at Leinart, Bush, an OL etc for Rivers. Maybe we don't pick that high anyways but I gotta wonder. This deal makes sense in the offseason if you decide you like Rivers but midseason learning a new offense, new players etc I'm just not sure you pull the trigger?

I'd do it for a 2007 first round pick but not a 2006 and I bet SD wouldn't take a 2007 pick.
 

Pariah

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Russ Smith said:
I'd do it for a 2007 first round pick but not a 2006 and I bet SD wouldn't take a 2007 pick.
I bet they would. I don't think they're going to get many offers for him with Leihart, Jacobs, Leak and Rogers coming out this year.


...Doesn't mean I'd like to see us offer it, though.
 

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A couple of things that will spoil your idea. It wont happen during this season, maybe in the offseason but not during the season.

1. SD doesnt have the cap space right now to absorb the rest of Rivers signing bonus. They will in the offseason though.

2. What happens if Brees goes down. They are stuck in the mud without a backup. They are not trading Rivers right now.

3. Brees is a FA after this season. They trade Rivers now they may end up without Brees or Rivers next year. They can tag Brees again to make sure but I doubt they want to tie up 10 mill of their cap space in doing so.
 

Wild Card

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Arizona's Finest said:
Tampa Bay is a good example of a team that if they had that franchise QB, they would have never gone into the three year downward spiral that they are only now getting out of... once Griese’s pact with the devil expires (likely next season) they will go back to mediocrity, even with Cadillac.

AF:

I know this wasn't your main point, but I think your analysis of the Bucs is exactly backwards. Remember, this team won a Super Bowl with Brad Johnson--no one's idea of a franchise QB--behind center. Team defense, solid line play and an effective running game will take you a long way in this league. (Trent Dilfer earned his ring the same way.)

Brian Griese is a very effective QB in the right circumstances, whose biggest problem in Denver was that he wasn't John Elway. With a legitimate run threat to keep defenses honest, and a decent receiving corps to throw to, an accurate pocket passer like Griese can be very productive. And he has been.

Griese's performance this season is actually a lot like what I would've expected to see from Kurt Warner, if he'd had an o-line that could both protect its QB and make the run game go. Sadly, this line has done neither.

And until the Cardinals can put a competent offensive line on the field, it won't much matter what quarterback they put behind it.

WC
 

Russ Smith

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Pariah said:
I bet they would. I don't think they're going to get many offers for him with Leihart, Jacobs, Leak and Rogers coming out this year.


...Doesn't mean I'd like to see us offer it, though.

I should add the caveat, I'd do it if Green likes Rivers, I have no idea if he does my gut says he doesn't. I do think green knows QB's, I don't think Josh is an example that he doesn't I don't think even he believed what he said about Josh that was a smokescreen so he could pick Fitz without everyone saying "don't we need a QB?"

Green said a lot of things when he took the job to generate interest, "Josh McCown is going to set the league on fire", he has a list of 10 "tremendous players" on the Cards who wanted to be where New England was, among those 10 players, Pete Kendall who he cut a few months later because he was a cancer. Green is like a person trying to get government funding he'll say anything to convince you we're all going to die if we don't banish SUV's by Friday. he has an opinion, it's his plan, and he will say anything he needs to say to convince everyone else he's right. Oftentime he's right, sometimes he's not.

but I really doubt Rivers is a QB he likes, he just doesn't have the arm.
 

Pariah

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Wild Card said:
until the Cardinals can put a competent offensive line on the field, it won't much matter what quarterback they put behind it.
I wholeheartedly agree with this statement, but I wholeheartedly disagree with what some people (not necissarily you, WC) use it for.

I've read too many times on this board that we shouldn't draft a QB high or spend big money on a FA QB because our line sucks. We need a young(ish) QB that can grow with this young team. Yes, we need to improve the line but that needs to be done concurrently with finding a decent QB. (and this is not to say that I'm a Warner-hater. We need him, too--he's been playing okay this year for us).

This is going to be my mantra until it's taken care of: "Stop F'ing Around With the QB Position."
 

Russ Smith

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CardinalChris said:
Willing to give up 2 first rounders for him? That's what they are asking for.


NO.
 

SuperSpck

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I'd be easier to get Brees.

Cheaper no doubt.

Do not give up any draft picks in this coming draft. Good stuff to be had.
 

Duckjake

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but so far all he does in the NFL is dump the ball down to the RB or the underneath WR I'm not sure he's Green's type of player.

Sounds like he'd be perfect for the Cardinals offense.

Does he also throw the ball 10 feet over the head of the WR on the deeper sideline patterns? That would be another plus.
 

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vince56 said:
Sure. BJ and Pace. :thumbup:

You and Russ are right. Hey Guy's the season is not over yet...!!! Have some faith we still can pull this season together, realy we can. It will take the playere to ralley around themsevles. They must start to believe in their abilities not our constant fault finding.

Bobcat :shrug: :thumbup: :cool:
 

Wild Card

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Pariah said:
I wholeheartedly agree with this statement, but I wholeheartedly disagree with what some people (not necessarily you, WC) use it for. I've read too many times on this board that we shouldn't draft a QB high or spend big money on a FA QB because our line sucks. We need a young(ish) QB that can grow with this young team. Yes, we need to improve the line but that needs to be done concurrently with finding a decent QB. (and this is not to say that I'm a Warner-hater. We need him, too--he's been playing okay this year for us).

This is going to be my mantra until it's taken care of: "Stop F'ing Around With the QB Position."

Pariah:

Agreed on all points. I meant that it won't matter which QB lines up behind center in terms of short-term results, not long-term potential.

What Tom Coughlin did last season in New York is illustrative. He played Kurt Warner long enough to be certain that last year's Giants team wasn't likely to reach the playoffs--or make much of an impact if they did--with Warner at the controls. Then Coughlin put Eli Manning in and let him lose games while learning on the job. Now the Giants have a 2nd-year first round pick who's starting to play like one.

The Cardinals should avoid band-aiding the QB position again with a former Pro Bowler (e.g., Dave Krieg, Boomer Esiason, Jeff Blake, Warner), a journeyman (Kent Graham, Dave Brown, Shaun King) or some "value pick" they "stole" in the draft (Josh McCown, John Navarre) and try again--more successfully--to do what they did with Jake Plummer: Draft a highly-regarded college prospect as the QOF and commit to him. Not least because that player's specific skills and attributes may influence the personnel decisions to be made in building a team around him.

Right now, the Cardinals are playing like an expansion team. And if I were trying to build a new franchise into a winner, one of the cornerstones would be a talented young QB.

Let's go get one. :thumbup:

WC
 

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Bobcat said:
You and Russ are right. Hey Guy's the season is not over yet...!!! Have some faith we still can pull this season together, realy we can. It will take the playere to ralley around themsevles. They must start to believe in their abilities not our constant fault finding.

Bobcat :shrug: :thumbup: :cool:

By the way, I freaking LOVE your new avatar :D :thumbup:
 
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Wild Card said:
AF:

I know this wasn't your main point, but I think your analysis of the Bucs is exactly backwards. Remember, this team won a Super Bowl with Brad Johnson--no one's idea of a franchise QB--behind center. Team defense, solid line play and an effective running game will take you a long way in this league. (Trent Dilfer earned his ring the same way.)

Brian Griese is a very effective QB in the right circumstances, whose biggest problem in Denver was that he wasn't John Elway. With a legitimate run threat to keep defenses honest, and a decent receiving corps to throw to, an accurate pocket passer like Griese can be very productive. And he has been.

Griese's performance this season is actually a lot like what I would've expected to see from Kurt Warner, if he'd had an o-line that could both protect its QB and make the run game go. Sadly, this line has done neither.

And until the Cardinals can put a competent offensive line on the field, it won't much matter what quarterback they put behind it.

WC

Everyone loves to bring up the two caveats of that you dont need a franchise QB in Trent Dilfer and Green taking 7 different QB's to the playoffs. I will dispell them both.

Yes trent Dilfer has a ring. BUT what everyone fails to see is that they had possibly the Greatest Defense of All Time. I mean besides the 85 Bears there is no team that had a defense like this until you look back to the 70's steelers (and they had Tbradshaw) They had the most talent, the right mix and maybe one of the top 5 defensive coordinators of all time. Plus a back who has since ran for 2000 yards. So if the Cards trade for Ray Lewis, Chris McAllister, and Sam Adams (version 2000 of course) and then get Marvin Lewis to take a demotion to come be our coordinator we might be able to get by with a vet QB. And i say might because that defense came together incredibly well and was unable to repeat it dominance since. My point is it takes unusual once every decades kind of defense to win with a mediocre QB. I think it would be easier just to find the right QB.

SWD, i was one of the biggest proponents of Greens 7 QBs in 8 years when discussing the Cardinals offense. I now realize the folly of my ways. Speaking of once in a lifetime unusual circumstances, there has NEVER been a WR who alters gameplans and allieviates responsibility on other players like Randy Moss. Not Rice, Not TO, not no one. You have to account for Moss every play or otherwise you can go deep all day. Try it in Madden 04....i could run all day with Onterrio freaking Smith because people have to respect Randy as a deep threat. i think Moss might be underrated as it is only now being seen that his effect in Minnesota was unquantifiable. Moss and the proper use of him (thats Denny) were the reasons guys like Jeff George and Randall Cunningham were able to take that team where they did. i would also say that the Vikes not getting to the Super Bowl was because once you get to the NFC championship game, you NEED a QB who can take over when his best weapon is gameplanned out. Unless you are the 2000 Ravens, but i already explained that above.

Im not saying Rivers is the definite answer but i remember him at NC state and lack of arm strength was not something i ever thought while watching. I want Lienert but im also resigned that the Cards will somehow screw that up so Im looking for the next best scenario. Rivers is a young franchise guy, who we can win with NEXT YEAR. And if you dont think the bolded words are the most important part of Dennys thought process this off season, you are kidding yourself......

As for BJ, Pace, a 2007 pick (i think SD would lighten up on not having a 2006 first b/c of the two other players) and a second round pick is MORE than enough for that team. Those guys are both positions of need for SD and they would contribute this year. Plus they were first round picks three years ago. They do have value. So i have no idea why Spanky thinks thats such a laughable proposition because i feel thats the best deal they are going to get, esp with the QBs eligible to be drafted next year. Much like the class of RB' s last year drove down the value for EJ and Alexander.

despite me quoting you WC, i think we are on the same page as in the need for a legit QB
 

Cbus cardsfan

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Russ Smith said:
I saw him against SF in the preseason and was very underwhelmed. OVerall he had ok pre season numbers.

35-55 276 yards 63.5% 2 TD 2 INT, 5YPA, 73 QB rating.

They YPA number should jump off the page and hit you over the head with a ball peen hammer, if you're completing 64% and you're still averaging 5 yards per attempt, you're just dumping the ball off over and over, nothing downfield.

In the SF game, last preseason he was 12-19 for 129 yards 1 TD 2 picks and quite frankly he barely threw the ball downfield. He has the weird motion and the questionable arm strength, he's very smart, he's tough, he's a leader, there's a lot about him that makes sense to get him, but so far all he does in the NFL is dump the ball down to the RB or the underneath WR I'm not sure he's Green's type of player.

SD if they're smart would INSIST on our first round pick so you give up a shot at Leinart, Bush, an OL etc for Rivers. Maybe we don't pick that high anyways but I gotta wonder. This deal makes sense in the offseason if you decide you like Rivers but midseason learning a new offense, new players etc I'm just not sure you pull the trigger?

I'd do it for a 2007 first round pick but not a 2006 and I bet SD wouldn't take a 2007 pick.


5 yards per attempt is about all he can average.He was a weak armed Qb in college who couldn't throw the ball down field.Why would anyone think he'd be any different in the pros? He's the next STeve Walsh.
 

Wild Card

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Arizona's Finest said:
despite me quoting you WC, i think we are on the same page as in the need for a legit QB

AF:

Yeah, we are. And I think we also agree that if a team is strong enough in other areas, they can get by with a caretaker quarterback, whose main function is not to lose games.

But that's a moot point when discussing the Cardinals, who have nothing in common with the '74 Steelers, '85 Bears, '00 Ravens, '02 Bucs, or any other SB winner with a #1-rated team defense. ;)

WC
 

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Skkorpion said:
I'd gladly give two #1s for Phillip Rivers.

i had a feeling you'd be popping your head here and saying something like that. ;)
 

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