Waiting to reserve judgement by game five

Discussion in 'Arizona Cardinals' started by Jetstream Green, Sep 9, 2018.

  1. Krangthebrain

    Krangthebrain Captain of Team Murray

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    Nearly the same team won 8 games with a better coach and better QB play.

    The Cardinals have a probably hall of Famer at CB, a Pro Bowl pass rusher, a good when healthy LT...basically they have good players at the .most important positions on a football team.

    My point is that the roster is much better than you are letting on. The team wasnt desperate for pass rush, in need of coverage help. The offensive line needed health and depth. Wide receiver was a weakness and it was aggressively filled with good prospects that are cheap.

    Air Raid is a gimmick? LOL tell that to Andy Reid who runs alot of its concepts now.
     
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  2. Krangthebrain

    Krangthebrain Captain of Team Murray

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    I'm glad that the Cardinals dont follow the moves that @Solar7 wants the team to make.

    Kirk Cousins would've led this team to crushing mediocrity.
     
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  3. Solar7

    Solar7 Also Skeptical

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    Round and round we go, this wasn't nearly the same team as the year before. And the coaching was out of this world. Sure, we had three positions, but we also changed our defensive scheme, making those players ineffective. We currently don't have that HOF CB for the season, our linebackers were a joke and are still a major weakness, our defensive line is a bunch of whatever... and that's ignoring the offense, where no one can stay healthy on the offensive line, and we have a bunch of rookie wideouts.

    This team has a loooooong way to go.

    And sure, keep rolling out the Kirk Cousins thing, but let's ignore the fact I was kicking and screaming to go up and get one of Deshaun Watson or Patrick Mahomes the year before.

    I can cop to Cousins being a bad choice - I had no idea how poor the talent really was on this team last year, not to mention the coaching.
     
  4. PACardsFan

    PACardsFan Registered User

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    tall QB
    It certainly did last year when the paltry Skins offense had 22 first downs at the half & we had 2. I told both my sons at halftime of the 1st game that we are probably watching the worst Cardinal team in history. At least the worst coached Cardinal team in history. We all pretty much knew at that point in time that the Wilks hire was a debacle. Being the decent person that I am, I don't think I called for his scalp until game 3 or 4. I would be shocked beyond shocked if we saw anything remotely as ugly as that in our opener this year.
     
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  5. Krangthebrain

    Krangthebrain Captain of Team Murray

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    Roster wise it was. You can say it wasn't, but the team had very little turnover.

    Yes Arians was a good offensive coach. Bettcher was ok. Amos Jones was dreadful. What does "sure we had three positions" mean? Are you saying that the roster didn't change much but it was the scheme that was the problem? That's my argument.

    Irrelevant to my comment that the roster was better last year than the results would indicate.

    I agree they were last year, but Jones, Suggs, Hicks, and Reddick isn't a major weakness. Two good pass rushers, a good ILB, and a ILB who is improving. Not a major weakness. The depth isn't great but it's not bad enough that you can call it a major weakness.

    Solid. Not spectacular, but shouldn't be an embarrassment. Jones and Suggs will make the pass rush pretty good...the Cardinals had a top 5 pass rush last year if IIRC.

    The offense is a work in progress, but with Kirk, Fitz, DJ, you have three targets that are pretty good. The rookies don't have to be great right away. The offensive line needs to stay healthy, but they can be solid.


    Offensively sure, but on the defense the pass rush should be solid and the secondary has some depth for once.


    You can search this forum and you will see that I was calling for Mahomes as well and a lot of the usual darksider types were saying some of the same **** you are saying about Murray about Mahomes. "Gimmick offense".

    Cousins just sucks dude. He is the ultimate 8-8 QB who loses close games.
     
  6. kerouac9

    kerouac9 #Stiff4Kliff

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    Erm. I'd argue that is not true. The downgrade from Carson Palmer to 2018 Sam Bradford proved to be steep. John Brown wasn't as good as we hoped he'd be, but there were no weapons on that offense, including David Johnson. The offensive line was completely remade on the right side, and still sucked.

    I think that if Arians had remained coach of the Cardinals, that offense would look very different.

    On the defense, I agree that the biggest failure was a coaching staff that wasn't ready for prime time. That unit was arguably better (with the return of Markus Golden and the ascendance of Budda Baker) than the previous year's, but it stunk. The absolute season-long clownshow at the CB position opposite Peterson was inexplicable and is relatively forgotten because the offense was so putrid.
     
  7. Solar7

    Solar7 Also Skeptical

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    I don't know why you're still using Kirk Cousins as your argument. I said I was wrong. Have you never been wrong on this board? Keep in mind, our boy Keim offered him the farm and Cousins declined. We're one decision away from Cousins having been our guy, it's not like Keim made the football decision to pass on that contract or his evaluation of the player.

    "Three positions" was you referencing the pass rusher, LT, and CB. Nothing more.

    Suggs we can barely count on - we don't even know if he showed up to OTAs, he's had some terrible injuries, and is in his late 30s. I don't think we're getting a full year of him, and then it's up to Brooks Reed? Meh. Reddick's bad. Not "improving," just plainly bad. Hicks is injury-prone and I sure hope he pulls it off. Chandler Jones is a shining star and I love him.

    I don't think our defense will be an embarrassment, but it wasn't last year. I'd think it would be better, but without PP21, things are going to be rough to start. Sad, because I think the best shots for us to win games are going to be early on.

    I don't know what to make of the offense yet, besides thinking it's too young at the moment, and will begin to show signs of life later into the season.

    As far as the rest goes, I don't doubt the Air Raid as a fully functional and successful college offense. I do think that the future of the NFL is the Air Raid, too. I only call it a "gimmick offense" for Kliff because I'm worried he's going to lean into it way too hard too early. 5-10 years from now, it might be the way the NFL is played exclusively.

    Mahomes had all of the measurements, a great sample size, interviewed incredibly well, and did all of the workouts. The offense was the only thing hurting him. If it weren't for Mahomes and Mayfield though, Kyler probably would have been a 3rd round pick. Or in baseball.
     
  8. Krangthebrain

    Krangthebrain Captain of Team Murray

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    Most of the starters remained the same. John Brown provided around what Kirk provided.
     
  9. kerouac9

    kerouac9 #Stiff4Kliff

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    So... Are we counting Washed David Johnson and his 1 game in 2018 as a "starter" from that 8-8 team?

    Here are the https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201709100det.htmhttps://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201709100det.htm:

    Carson Palmer QB- Gone
    David Johnson RB
    John Brown WR - Gone
    Larry Fitzgerald WR
    Jaron Brown WR- Gone
    Jermaine Gresham TE- PUP
    D.J. Humphries LT
    Mike Iupati LG
    A.Q. Shipley C- IR
    Evan Boehm RG- Gone
    Jared Veldheer RT- Gone
    Josh Mauro DL- Gone
    Frostee Rucker DL- Gone
    Corey Peters DL
    Markus Golden WILL
    Karlos Dansby ILB
    Haason Reddick SLB
    Chandler Jones SAM
    Patrick Peterson LCB
    Justin Bethel RCB- Gone
    Tyvon Branch SS- Gone
    Tyrann Mathieu FS- Gone

    Here are the Week 1 starters from 2018:
    SAm Bradford QB- New
    David Johnson RB
    Derrick Coleman FB- New
    Larry Fitzgerald WR
    Ricky Seals-Jones TE
    Gabe Holmes TE- New/Who?
    D.J. Humphries LT
    Mike Iupati LG
    Mason Cole C- New
    Justin Pugh RG- New
    Andre Smith RT-New
    Chandler Jones DE
    Benson Mayowa DE- New
    Corey Peters DT
    Robert Nkemdiche DT
    Josh Bynes MLB
    Deone Bucannon WLB
    Patrick Peterson CB
    Jamar Taylor CB- New
    Budda Baker SS
    Antoine Bethea FS
    Tre Boston S- New

    So... 12 of 22 starters from the previous season were unavailable, and 9 of 22 starters in 2019 were altogether new to the team, with several more (Diche', Buc, Baker, Bynes, Seals-Jones) rising to the starting lineup.
     
  10. Krangthebrain

    Krangthebrain Captain of Team Murray

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    Reportedly. You have no proof that this is true.


    Three of the four most important positions, and hardest to fill. Humphries is an injury concern though.

    Terrible injuries? Years ago. He was productive last year. You can count on him to be your 2nd best pass rusher.

    Anything to support that assumption other than his age? He was still productive last year.

    He's a backup. This isn't Madden where you can build out all star teams. Most teams don't have a ton of backup pass rushers better than Brooks Reed.

    Again, not every team has stars at every position. By the end of the year, Reddick played fairly decently. Hicks has had some injuries, but Free Agents are either A) Cost more than their prior team wants to pay them (which begs the question, why should you pay them?) B) Injured C) They suck. Teams rarely let perfect players hit the market.

    I don't disagree, but CB does have some decent depth now. Alford, Murphy, Amerson, and Brock isn't an embarrassment. It's actually one of the better CB depth charts the Cardinals have had since I've watched the team.

    The offense is a huge ? but it would be with Rosen as well. I think there will be a learning curve just like there was with Arians.

    The offense didn't hurt him and it didn't hurt Mayfield either. It didn't hurt Goff either.

    If you look at what the Cardinals have done by bringing in Clements and Kugler, they brought in guys with traditional NFL offensive backgrounds that will help meld K2's offensive concepts into NFL offensive concepts. I'm excited to see it.
     
  11. Solar7

    Solar7 Also Skeptical

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    I'm not fighting you on the offense hurting any of those QBs. If you think you can rely on a 38 year old player at ANY position in football for a whole season, c'mon man.

    And "reportedly?" Well, yeah, Keim doesn't post here. I can't go make him knock on your door and prove it. But I'll take the word of a ton of different news outlets.
     
  12. Krangthebrain

    Krangthebrain Captain of Team Murray

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    Yeah more change than I thought but a lot of the same core players. Bethea, Bynes, Baker, Seals-Jones, Nkemdiche all played the year before, so it's not roster turnover for them.

    And then you question, what losses really hurt. I would say not many; Palmer barely played and wasn't great before his injury. He wasn't Bradford/Rosen bad, but he wasn't good either.

    But I'll withdraw my point. The team changed a lot.
     
  13. Krangthebrain

    Krangthebrain Captain of Team Murray

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    All he has to do is be better than Golden/Mayowa was for it to be an upgrade. A 54 year old Suggs is better than those two.

    Just like you fall back on third hand media reports that Murray wasn't good during interviews, even though everyone who knows him says he is. LOL.

    Did Keim offer Cousins? He may have, but there isn't anything definitive to make that claim.
     
  14. Solar7

    Solar7 Also Skeptical

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    I don’t fall back on media reports, I’m talking about interviews I watched.

    Dude, if you think there’s nothing definitive, you must think that free agency is this mysterious quagmire of non-truths. Do you think we also didn’t offer Peyton Manning anything because he didn’t sign here?
     
  15. Krangthebrain

    Krangthebrain Captain of Team Murray

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    Peyton Manning visited.

    There is concrete evidence that Manning was pursued.

    You have no evidence that Keim pursued him.
     
  16. Solar7

    Solar7 Also Skeptical

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    K, so none of the paid journalists with connections throughout the league have any clout here? You’re ridiculously bad at making these arguments.

    Keim, Kliff, and Kyler are perfect. Time to throw my hands up to K3.
     

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