Vogel not the problem

bk3000

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Was Frank Vogel really the problem with the Suns? Or were the real problems: 1 No real point guard on the roster, and a non-rebounding two guard playing the point position with no great ability to do so. 2. Little basket protection and poor rebounding because the team lacked a power forward. 3. A weak bench. 4. Bad chemistry because the two star players spent much of the games yelling at and scowling at their teammates. This team does not need a new coach. The team needs a different mix of players, including a good power forward and a real point guard, along with an attitude adjustment from its two most noted players.
 

BirdGangThing

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"the problem"?

idk but time will tell - and id give the nod to bud considering this will be the squad's second year together - not to mention he can watch the same games we did if you know what i mean

at one point in the season i correctly predicted the starting line up and every substitution in the first quarter within a minute or something crazy like that

not utilizing whats worked in the past or who works together - letting book and kd decide when book and kd play - acting like drewbanks could replace nurk without any other roster changes on the starting line up (that was fun) - vogel was stuck on stupid

We will be a top 4 team next year barring unforseen obstacles - but im more concerned with 4th quarters
 

Chris_Sanders

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Was Frank Vogel really the problem with the Suns? Or were the real problems: 1 No real point guard on the roster, and a non-rebounding two guard playing the point position with no great ability to do so. 2. Little basket protection and poor rebounding because the team lacked a power forward. 3. A weak bench. 4. Bad chemistry because the two star players spent much of the games yelling at and scowling at their teammates. This team does not need a new coach. The team needs a different mix of players, including a good power forward and a real point guard, along with an attitude adjustment from its two most noted players.

This poo is so terrible I have to keep going at it.

#1. I assume the #1 is a slight at Booker so Devin Bookers 4.5 rebounds a game is the exact same number as Mikael Bridges. That is #11 in the NBA of all guards, not PGs, all guards

Also Devin Booker was #6 of all guards in assists per game.

#2 The Suns were #10 in rebounds per game and #6 in blocks per game.

#3. Yep we all agree

#4. You see what you want to see despite actual reality. See bad takes #1 and #2
 

Yuma

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Strategically, on offense Buddenholzer teams play with pace and know how to get open threes. We all saw how playing with pace made our offense look alive. Kd wants to be set up for shots, not play ISO to get a shot. we resorted to ISO a lot. IDK, if that was Vogel's fault, but we will find out if the same problems happen with Buddenholzer.
 

Chaplin

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Strategically, on offense Buddenholzer teams play with pace and know how to get open threes. We all saw how playing with pace made our offense look alive. Kd wants to be set up for shots, not play ISO to get a shot. we resorted to ISO a lot. IDK, if that was Vogel's fault, but we will find out if the same problems happen with Buddenholzer.
The problem with Vogel as I see it wasn't that he planned for ISO a lot, it's that he didn't and never had the cajones to stand up to his 2 big players to say stop. This ISO crap happened all year! And what did that get us? Swept in the 1st round AND the worst 4th quarter team in the NBA. And that was historically bad.

Either the adjustments Frank made didn't work or he didn't try to make any adjustments -- both are grounds for getting him outta town.
 
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bk3000

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Chris Sanders: If you don't see Booker and Durant scowling at and screaming at their teammates, you are watching different Suns games than I am. And if you think Booker is a true point guard, you need to start commenting on field hockey, jai alai or anything other than basketball.
 

clyde2tw

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His ability didn't make him the right coach for this roster. That's not his problem alone, but he has to go nevertheless, as the roster won't change enough to make him the right one.
 

GatorAZ

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When KD goes into coach killer mode the rest of the team follows his lead. Vogel wasn’t the right guy for this team but he didn’t have much of a chance to begin with starting with not being able to build his own staff. We know now that you didn’t hitch your wagon to KD unless you have a championship infrastructure already in place (Golden St). I expect the Suns to be marginally better than last year but still not a threat.
 
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clyde2tw

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Vogel was just too much talk of seemingly right ideas. Denver defense regrouped and stopped Minn's offense to get back into the series. Our weakest link on D is Booker whose attitude always seems to just get by with minimal motions on D, and committing fouls if needed instead of working on true defensive skill and space awareness. With over 40 min courttime and off. burdens, he and KD at most were going through motions when rotating. It's not gonna make it.
 

Chris_Sanders

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Chris Sanders: If you don't see Booker and Durant scowling at and screaming at their teammates, you are watching different Suns games than I am. And if you think Booker is a true point guard, you need to start commenting on field hockey, jai alai or anything other than basketball.

Durant and Booker didn't scream at anyone. If they had, that would shown the leadership this team lacked.

You are right, we definitely watched different Suns games.

The real issues with the Suns:

#1. Frank Vogel. The same issue that I have said since December and have shown multiple videos / photos about why he was terrible. I wanted this dude fired on Christmas Day. It didn't matter what personnel were in, we ran the same offense and the same defense. Rather than crafting the game plan to the players strengths, he would run the same poo game after game. You could scout the Suns in November and it was the same scouting report in March.

It didn't matter who was in the game, the team sucked the 4th because teams would adapt

#2 The lack of leadership. My biggest concern with Booker is Durant. Booker seems to adopt the traits of the older star rather than make his own statement. With CP3 Booker was an absolute assassin especially in the 4th quarter.

The greatest strength of CP3 was building up those around him to be above him.

Ultimately though this goes back to 1. Teams adopt their coach.

#3. The lack of a bench except I can't go here because again of the coach. It was clear to anyone watching that Bol Bol needed more minutes and basically his role went unchanged for the entire season. His minutes were incredibly predictable even down to the point in the game he would be played and when he would be pulled.
 

nashman

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Durant and Booker didn't scream at anyone. If they had, that would shown the leadership this team lacked.

You are right, we definitely watched different Suns games.

The real issues with the Suns:

#1. Frank Vogel. The same issue that I have said since December and have shown multiple videos / photos about why he was terrible. I wanted this dude fired on Christmas Day. It didn't matter what personnel were in, we ran the same offense and the same defense. Rather than crafting the game plan to the players strengths, he would run the same poo game after game. You could scout the Suns in November and it was the same scouting report in March.

It didn't matter who was in the game, the team sucked the 4th because teams would adapt

#2 The lack of leadership. My biggest concern with Booker is Durant. Booker seems to adopt the traits of the older star rather than make his own statement. With CP3 Booker was an absolute assassin especially in the 4th quarter.

The greatest strength of CP3 was building up those around him to be above him.

Ultimately though this goes back to 1. Teams adopt their coach.

#3. The lack of a bench except I can't go here because again of the coach. It was clear to anyone watching that Bol Bol needed more minutes and basically his role went unchanged for the entire season. His minutes were incredibly predictable even down to the point in the game he would be played and when he would be pulled.
I’d add a lot of the bench needed more minutes! Okogie, Young, Royce, Azabuke, Lee, many of the bench players may have helped but Vogel refused to give anyone a chance! Good riddance if his plans was to try and just ride the stars, which it seemed to be he was a terrible coach!
 

clyde2tw

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I’d add a lot of the bench needed more minutes! Okogie, Young, Royce, Azabuke, Lee, many of the bench players may have helped but Vogel refused to give anyone a chance! Good riddance if his plans was to try and just ride the stars, which it seemed to be he was a terrible coach!
I recall Allen was terrible of D early in the season. LBJ would abuse him after switch in the 4th each game, only Little and Okogie could hold off him some, and we lost all those games vs. Lakers then. Allen improved on D over the course but is still limited to defend the athletic and strong wings, yet he or KD had to do it in the starting lineup. As he had to play Gordon a lot along with the heavy min for starters, not even RO got much court time. Only in the final 1.5 games did he play Okogie and Little, a bit, after half season no-shows. Didn't he realize that we needed D first?
 

Yuma

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Chris Sanders: If you don't see Booker and Durant scowling at and screaming at their teammates, you are watching different Suns games than I am. And if you think Booker is a true point guard, you need to start commenting on field hockey, jai alai or anything other than basketball.
He has to tighten up those handles for sure. Maybe this off season he needs to hang out with true point guards rather than shooters. He needs to call up Jamal Crawford and let him teach him the dribble game. I'm sure Crawford would give him some pointers.
 

Yuma

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I’d add a lot of the bench needed more minutes! Okogie, Young, Royce, Azabuke, Lee, many of the bench players may have helped but Vogel refused to give anyone a chance! Good riddance if his plans was to try and just ride the stars, which it seemed to be he was a terrible coach!
Maybe not solid minutes, but some match up time here or there on defense for sure. I believe coaches need to trust their players in playoffs until proven otherwise. I think more guys should have played regular season, too. KD and Book were gassed going into the playoffs. Both KD and Book shoot it flatter when their legs are not under them.
 

Yuma

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When KD goes into coach killer mode the rest of the team follows his lead. Vogel wasn’t the right guy for this team but he didn’t have much of a chance to begin with starting with not being able to build his own staff. We know now that you didn’t hitch your wagon to KD unless you have a championship infrastructure already in place (Golden St). I expect the Suns to be marginally better than last year but still not a threat.
I do think the whole roster changed on him before the season. That being said, a coach has to roll with the roster he has. He never seemingly made that adjustment. We would see flashes where the Suns looked great when they played with pace. You would expect a coach seeing that, to lean into playing with pace as a strategy. We would inexplicably see them running down the clock and playing half court basketball the very next game. It was frustrating to see such weird opposite styles from game to game. Without knowing what Vogel was thinking, it's hard to justify what we see in a game as fans, and what seemingly was an alternate universe in what the coaches saw.
 

Hoop Head

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Was Frank Vogel really the problem with the Suns? Or were the real problems: 1 No real point guard on the roster, and a non-rebounding two guard playing the point position with no great ability to do so. 2. Little basket protection and poor rebounding because the team lacked a power forward. 3. A weak bench. 4. Bad chemistry because the two star players spent much of the games yelling at and scowling at their teammates. This team does not need a new coach. The team needs a different mix of players, including a good power forward and a real point guard, along with an attitude adjustment from its two most noted players.

A non-rebounding 2 guard is what's holding us back. Who could forget when Kobe dominated the league on the boards like MJ before him? This is such a weird complaint and that's it #1 on your list shows your whole diatribe is nonsense.
 

Bufalay

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I think Vogel was the main obstacle to the Suns winning 55+ games during the regular season (second place is Beal's injuries).

Do you all remember how Shawn Marion used to try doing crossovers and silly dribbling when Frank Johnson was the coach? Then when D'Antoni was coach Marion basically wasn't allowed to dribble more than once. This made Marion a much more effective player.

Whatever Vogel's system was, it did not discourage most of the players' worst tendencies: Durant trying to dribble against double teams, Booker wasting the shot clock, Nurkic posting up from 18 feet out, Eric Gordon driving.

I think if they had a coach that could discourage all of these tendencies, the Suns would've been much more successful.
 

Chris_Sanders

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A non-rebounding 2 guard is what's holding us back. Who could forget when Kobe dominated the league on the boards like MJ before him? This is such a weird complaint and that's it #1 on your list shows your whole diatribe is nonsense.

Its even dumber because he was like either #5 in SGs or #6 in PGs in rebounding.
 

Yuma

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Its even dumber because he was like either #5 in SGs or #6 in PGs in rebounding.
It was 5 or 6 out of ALL guards, period. They made a big deal out of Dwayne Wade averaging 5 rebounds a game over his career as a guard. I don't think people realize Booker is a very good rebounder for his position.
 

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