Two DEN/PHO trade proposals

[hcsilla]

Trade1


PHO trade
Tom Gugliotta
2005 1st rounder top3 protected (DEN get the pick only if Camby plays at least 110 games in his next two seasons)

PHO get
Marcus Camby

TRADE ACCEPTED


WHY IT COULD WORK FOR DEN?
They get a bigger but shorter contract and a 1st rounder for Camby.They will still have enough cap space to sign Arenas and Maggette AND they would be able to sign a max. FA again in 2004 when Gugliotta's huge contract will expire.If the get Milicic then Camby would only block the improvement of their young bigmen.Although Gugliotta can no longer run and jump he still knows how to play basketball and DEN's young core could learn one thing or two from him.
LINE-UP
PG-Arenas/Harrington
SG-Maggette/Yarborough/White
SF-Tskitisvili/White
PF-(Milicic)/Gugliotta
C -Hilario/Andersen


WHY IT COULD WORK FOR PHO?
They get a 4 mil. cap relief this year what is very servicable because they will be over the luxury tax limit because of Marion's max. extension.Camby's health is a big gamble but if he could play 60 games per year then with Stoudemire they would be a formidable frontcourt even in West.Camby can backup also Stoudemire.
LINE-UP
PG-Marbury/FA or draft pick
SG-Hardaway/Johnson/Jacobsen
SF-Marion/FA or draft pick
PF-Stoudemire/Camby/Outlaw
C -Camby/Tsakalidis/Voskuhl



Trade2


PHO trade

Casey Jacobsen
Dan Langhi (S&T,partially guaranteed min. contract)

PHO get

Rodney White



DEN get a cheaper and younger backup SG who is a nice outside-shooter.


PHO have 3 SG's but they have only Dan Langhi to backup Marion.White as an athletic, good scoring swingman would be a nice,talented benchplayer

 

[Joe Mama]

Does Camby's contract expired after this season? I thought it ran through next season. Marcus Camby might be the most fragile player ever to put on an NBA uniform, and he has a questionable attitude to go along with his fragility. I guess is the Suns would rather keep Tom Gugliotta and definitely their first-round draft pick.

As far as your second trade proposal goes I would rather keep Casey Jacobson and Langhi. White has some offensive potential, but from what I've seen and heard of him his defense is nonexistent.

Joe Mama

 

[Chaplin]

First of all, these trades would have to happen after the season, since the deadline is passed. At that point, Googs will have one year remaining (assuming he takes his option, which he probably will). If Camby's contract also expires in another year, is the difference between Camby and Googs worth a 1st round top 3 protected pick? AND, assuming your 110 games in 2 years thing, he'd have to be playing another 2 years with us. I'd rather get rid of the money sooner and pick up someone other than Camby AND Googs who won't be injured all year.

 

[hcsilla]

Originally posted by Chaplin
First of all, these trades would have to happen after the season, since the deadline is passed.

Of course.

At that point, Googs will have one year remaining (assuming he takes his option, which he probably will). If Camby's contract also expires in another year, is the difference between Camby and Googs worth a 1st round top 3 protected pick?

I think if Camby is healthy then the difference between Googs and Camby is worth a top3 protected 1st rounder.
Especially that with the healthy Camby Suns is definitely a play-off team.
If Camby wouldn't be healthy then DEN wouldn't get the pick because of the protection.

Plus Camby's salary in 2003/2004 is less by 4.5 mil. than Gugliotta's so Suns would save about 9 mil. because of the luxury tax.

AND, assuming your 110 games in 2 years thing, he'd have to be playing another 2 years with us.

Not another 2 years.Camby's contract is only one year longer than Googs'.
If Camby wouldn't play more than 110 games in 2003/2004 and in 2004/2005 seasons then DEN wouldn't get the pick.
But you are right (if you meant that) then the pick has to be a 2005 1st rounder.

I edited the trade.

 

[elindholm]

It's a terrible trade for Denver. They get the pick only if Camby is healthy -- but if Camby is healthy, they'd rather have him than the pick anyway.

Imagine if someone cooked up a scenario where the Suns trade Hardaway, but get something in return only if he's healthy. Of course everyone here would laugh themselves silly.

If Denver wants to trade Camby, they can do a lot better than $15 million of dead weight (remember Gugliotta's trade kicker) and a "maybe" pick.

 

[SirStefan32]

I am not really sure about those two trades. Camby is a good player, but I don't think he is worth a first rounder and an expiring contract. I'd hold on to Googs. Just let his contract expire.

Besides, I don't know why Denver would do it. As Eric pointed out, stipulation of Camby being healthy is not something Denver would go for.

 

[Joe Mama]

If Marcus Camby's contract expires next season would we have to sign to an extension to count those 2 years?

There were some articles out of Denver today talking about Marcus Camby. Apparently they're quite disappointed with his effort and heart. This is nothing new for him of course. I don't think Colangelos would touch him at this point.

Joe Mama

 

[hcsilla]

Originally posted by Joe Mama
If Marcus Camby's contract expires next season would we have to sign to an extension to count those 2 years?

Joe Mama

Camby's contract will expire in 2005.

 

[hcsilla]

Originally posted by elindholm
They get the pick only if Camby is healthy -- but if Camby is healthy, they'd rather have him than the pick anyway.

I'm not that sure.
If you are a completely rebuilding team then you usually rather need an expiring contract and a pick than a good player with longer contract.

If Denver wants to trade Camby, they can do a lot better than $15 million of dead weight (remember Gugliotta's trade kicker) and a "maybe" pick.

OK,Suns should add 2 mil. cash to the deal because of Gugliotta's trade kicker.

 

[elindholm]

If you are a completely rebuilding team then you usually rather need an expiring contract and a pick than a good player with longer contract.

The value of "expiring contracts" isn't that the players disappear, it's that the team can stop spending money on them. Gugliotta makes almost as much next season as Camby makes in the next two seasons combined. Throw in the pick, and Denver is on the hook for more salary than they would be without the trade.

Camby is not preventing the Nuggets from adding talent. They have plenty of money to work with.

You're saying that they'd rather have Gugliotta for one year (plus the maybe pick) than Camby for two, for the same money. That is just absurd. Phoenix will be a playoff team in 2004-05 so their pick won't be worth much anyway.

 

[Joe Mama]

Originally posted by elindholm
If you are a completely rebuilding team then you usually rather need an expiring contract and a pick than a good player with longer contract.

You're saying that they'd rather have Gugliotta for one year (plus the maybe pick) than Camby for two, for the same money. That is just absurd. Phoenix will be a playoff team in 2004-05 so their pick won't be worth much anyway.

If Marcus Camby is going to have another couple seasons like this one Denver probably would rather have Tom Gugliotta for one year. His contract comes off the books sooner. The value of expiring contracts is not just that they save the team money overall. More importantly it frees up room under the salary cap to lure free agents.

Joe Mama

 

[hcsilla]

Originally posted by Joe Mama
If Marcus Camby is going to have another couple seasons like this one Denver probably would rather have Tom Gugliotta for one year. His contract comes off the books sooner. The value of expiring contracts is not just that they save the team money overall. More importantly it frees up room under the salary cap to lure free agents.

Joe Mama

Exactly.

DEN would save about total 4 mil. with this trade.

They would lose 4.5 mil. cap space this year but they would win 7.8 mil cap room next year after this trade.
Plus the pick IF Camby stays more or less healthy.

 

[elindholm]

If Marcus Camby is going to have another couple seasons like this one Denver probably would rather have Tom Gugliotta for one year. His contract comes off the books sooner. The value of expiring contracts is not just that they save the team money overall. More importantly it frees up room under the salary cap to lure free agents.

Joe Mama, I'm going to have to disagree with you in this case. Denver's big opportunity for FAs will be this coming summer. If they get the players they want, they won't have room for another max player in 2004, even if Gugliotta comes off then.

Neither Camby's salary nor the difference between Gugliotta's and his is enough for another max player. They already have two mid-level exceptions (2003 and 2004) if they want to use them. The difference for them will come down to actual dollars, in which case Gugliotta's contract is just as bad as Camby's.

Come to think of it, I don't even know how this trade would work. For Denver to take Gugliotta in exchange for Camby, they'd have to be under the cap. But the whole point of them being under the cap is so that they can sign quality FAs, not acquire stiffs like Gugliotta. So if they make the trade, they can't sign good players -- but once they sign good players, they can no longer make the trade.

 

[Joe Mama]

I was just thinking about that same thing Eric. This trade doesn't make any sense. I guess if they decided they wanted to wait another year to the players in free agency and have even more room this trade would help. However they aren't going to wait.

I'm sure the Colangelos do not want Marcus Camby. Denver almost certainly does not want Tom Gugliotta. Sorry hcilla. It's a bad trade.

Joe Mama

 

[SweetD]

The trade wouldn't work anyways Googs Contract is to big and Denver would have to though in some fillers. I say lets see if Googs even takes the money next year.(Don't worry he will) But we can use his contract to get some younger players or something from teams like the Clips or someone who would rather have a lotto ball than players.

 

[hcsilla]

Originally posted by elindholm


Come to think of it, I don't even know how this trade would work. For Denver to take Gugliotta in exchange for Camby, they'd have to be under the cap. But the whole point of them being under the cap is so that they can sign quality FAs, not acquire stiffs like Gugliotta. So if they make the trade, they can't sign good players -- but once they sign good players, they can no longer make the trade.

I don't think that you have read what I wrote in my original trade proposal.

DEN's cap space will be about 17 mil. (1st round pick's salary is already included) next year (if the cap will be about 39 mil.) and it seems to be very likely that they will offer a 70 mil./6year deal for Arenas so it will take 7 mil. from their cap space.

They still have 10 mil. cap space.

I think that their 2nd most important target (if they will get #2 and pick Milicic) is Maggette.
But I don't think that 10 mil. cap space will be enough for Maggette AND a decent C (Olowokandi,B.Miller or Nesterovic).
So they could use another 5 mil. cap space on Maggette and they would use the remaining 5 mil. for swallowing of Gugliotta's bigger but shorter deal.

Then next offseason they will have enough cap space for a max. FA or for two 5 mil. FA's to give more depth to their backcourt (Q-Rich,Giricek, Ginobili or Turkoglu).

If they get Milicic then they will have a nice PF/C rotation with Tskitisvili, Milicic and Hilario.

Tskitisvili is a perimeter oriented F ala Nowitzki.
Milicic is a skilled and dynamic bigman who plays around the basket ala Gasol.
Hilario is a tough,athletic PF/C ala Ben Wallace.

They probably would fit well to each other (they can be also together on the court) and this rotation doesn't really need a good PF/C who would demand 30 min./game if he is healthy.
It would be enough for DEN to sign some role players (for example Harvey as a backup F and Andersen as a backup C) and they wouldn't have any problem with the sharing of PT.
Gugliotta wouldn't disturb their young core.
Plus they get a pick if Camby stays healthy.If he won't then they only restuctured their cap space.

 

[hcsilla]

Originally posted by Joe Mama
I'm sure the Colangelos do not want Marcus Camby.

Joe Mama

Why not?

It's not that we trade Amare Stoudemire for Camby.
We trade Gugliotta for Camby.
We all know that Gugliotta is officially done.

Camby is fragile as hell, but at least there's the hope that he'll return and play at a high level.
Is there some hope that Gugliotta will return and play well again?
No,there isn't.

Finally as I said earlier Camby's salary in 2003/2004 is less by 4.5 mil. than Gugliotta's so Suns would save about 9 mil. because of the luxury tax.

I still think that this is a good trade for Suns.

 

[Chaplin]

That's not a good trade! Camby is too much of a risk. If he gets injured, sure, we don't lose the pick, but then again we'll be stuck paying yet ANOTHER injured player for too much time.

 

[SweetD]

Please end this Thread till the off-season..... Lets focus on the good stuff for know. ALA Big Jake and Penney coming back to solidify the team and bring us back into contention.

GO SUNS GO!
PS> Thunder Dan bobble head night March 9th!! all three Jersey types that is way cool.

 

[schutd]

All three Jersey types? I thought there was only one! Big hair, stirrup pants, thick accent, too much make up and fake tits...

 

[sunsfn]

Sweet D said,
--------------------------------------------------------
Please end this Thread till the off-season..... Lets focus on the good stuff for know. ALA Big Jake and Penney coming back to solidify the team and bring us back into contention.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

I DISAGREE..............THIS THREAD SHOULD NEVER HAVE STARTED!!

What a couple of terrible trades idea.............
I would not give a first pick alone for Camby!

Googs is not going anywhere!
GET REAL!!!!!!

 

[elindholm]

I don't think that you have read what I wrote in my original trade proposal.

You're welcome to draw whatever conclusion you wish.

...it seems to be very likely that they will offer a 70 mil./6year deal for Arenas so it will take 7 mil. from their cap space.

I think that their 2nd most important target (if they will get #2 and pick Milicic) is Maggette.

But I don't think that 10 mil. cap space will be enough for Maggette AND a decent C (Olowokandi,B.Miller or Nesterovic).

...

Then next offseason they will have enough cap space for a max. FA or for two 5 mil. FA's to give more depth to their backcourt (Q-Rich,Giricek, Ginobili or Turkoglu).

...

Tskitisvili is a perimeter oriented F ala Nowitzki.
Milicic is a skilled and dynamic bigman who plays around the basket ala Gasol.
Hilario is a tough,athletic PF/C ala Ben Wallace.

You've made about 20 assumptions to get to this point. Some of them are fairly likely and others aren't. By the time you combine everything, you're talking about a highly specific scenario that has absolutely no chance of happening in the way you describe. You might as well try to predit the final score of every single game left in the NBA this season.

You don't seem to understand that it isn't possible to make such detailed plans so far in advance. Denver's management does. That's why this trade will not happen.

 

[hcsilla]

Originally posted by elindholm

You've made about 20 assumptions to get to this point. Some of them are fairly likely and others aren't.

I made 6 assumptions.

1.DEN get Milicic-------Who knows?
2.If 1 is true then they don't really need Camby----It's likely.
3.They will give a 60 mil./7 year deal for Arenas---------It's very likely.
4.If 1 and 3 are true then their 2nd most important FA target is Maggette------It seems to be reasonable for me.
5.10 mil. cap room won't be enough for both Maggette and a good C----It's likely.
6.DEN would rather have 12 mil. cap room in 2004 than 5 mil. cap room in 2003----The weakest point.It's very debatable.

By the time you combine everything, you're talking about a highly specific scenario

Yes,I'm.

Isn't this the name of the game if you are making a trade proposal?

 

[Chaplin]

That's the problem. NONE of these trade proposals anyone makes ever come true. Sure, it's nice to try to figure it out to make yourself looks smart, but when you look at reality--well, you're not looking at reality...

 

[SirStefan32]

Hcsilla, I really can't understand why Phoenix would do that.

If I were a GM, I would want to keep Googs and just let his contract expire.

I would try to make a trade involving our first rounder to get a veteran player or two, or move up in the draft, but I would not touch Marcus Camby. I'd much rather try to make a sign and trade deal with Minessota for Rasho Nesterovic, using our first rounder, Cleaveland's protected first rounder, Jake Tsakalidis and whatever else it takes.