Troubling News on the Strength of Schedule Front

gmabel830

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This isn't meant to be confrontational, but what's your definition of a "good team"?

Is it somewhere in the middle 10 of NFL teams?

Like, I don't think this team is talented enough to beat these teams the majority of the time (any given Sunday, etc., etc.):

Buffalo
Miami
Baltimore
Cincy
KC
Los Angeles Chargers
Philly
Green Bay
Minnesota
Tampa
LA Rams (obviously)

That's 11 teams that IMO we clearly don't have enough talent to compete with. If that was our schedule, I'd expect us to go 3-8.

Right now, the teams we'd be favored against are probably Carolina (though we were underdogs against them last week), Houston, Washington, Detroit, Chicago, Pittsburgh, and maybe the Jets. I just can't define being the best of the worst teams as "good."
Now I acknowledge there are counter points to be made for pretty much all of these, but:

1. Murray is among the most athletically gifted to ever play the position and at his best can be a huge difference maker against anyone.

2. Conner is among the best 3rd down/goal line back in the league. Problem is we are paying and using him as something more and don’t have the complementary back he needs.

3. Hopkins, Brown, and Ertz are a top tier 1-2-3 punch once D-Hop is back. The depth is more concerning than expected though.

4. Our OL lacks top end talent, but when everyone is healthy (which they haven’t been) has the most depth we have ever had at the position.

5. Watt and Allen are proving to be a great tandem (when healthy of course), but the lack of a strong NT hurts.

6. We have an obvious talent gap at OLB, where Golden is serviceable but this is a huge weakness.

7. Collins and Simmons have as much athletic talent as you can find at the position, and it seems like the light bulb is finally clicking for Collins which may open up Simmons to be more in the playmaking role he should be in. Whether the coaching will ever maximize their potential is very much up for debate.

8. Budda, Jalen, and Murphy are proving to be 3/4 of an excellent secondary. Getting the extra 2 or 3 corners you need in today’s NFL continues to be a challenge.

Overall, I feel like the team has enough talent to compete with anyone. Talent is only one component though - you need the coaching, work ethic (especially at QB), and health/availability too. I feel that these areas have let us down more than not having enough talented players on the roster.
 
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kerouac9

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Now I acknowledge there are counter points to be made for pretty much all of these, but:

1. Murray is among the most athletically gifted to ever play the position and at his best can be a huge difference maker against anyone.

2. Conner is among the best 3rd down/goal line back in the league. Problem is we are paying and using him as something more and don’t have the complementary back he needs.

3. Hopkins, Brown, and Ertz are a top tier 1-2-3 punch once D-Hop is back. The depth is more concerning than expected though.

4. Our OL lacks top end talent, but when everyone is healthy (which they haven’t been) has the most depth we have ever had at the position.

5. Watt and Allen are proving to be a great tandem (when healthy of course), but the lack of a strong NT hurts.

6. We have an obvious talent gap at OLB, where Golden is serviceable but this is a huge weakness.

7. Collins and Simmons have as much athletic talent as you can find at the position, and it seems like the light bulb is finally clicking for Collins which may open up Simmons to be more in the playmaking role he should be in. Whether the coaching will ever maximize their potential is very much up for debate.

8. Budda, Jalen, and Murphy are proving to be 3/4 of an excellent secondary. Getting the extra 2 or 3 corners you need in today’s NFL continues to be a challenge.

Overall, I feel like the team has enough talent to compete with anyone. Talent is only one component though - you need the coaching, work ethic (especially at QB), and health/availability too. I feel that these areas have let us down more than not having enough talented players on the roster.
I have no idea how you square this view (with the exception of 3. where we're still waiting for D-hop to come back) with what we've seen on the field through the first four games of the season. But whatever, I guess.
 

cheesebeef

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That's because you're not paying attention. I've said all along that Arizona has some of the worst fans in the League. :)
You realize fans aren’t actually part of the Arizona Cardinals organization, no?
 

gmabel830

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I have no idea how you square this view (with the exception of 3. where we're still waiting for D-hop to come back) with what we've seen on the field through the first four games of the season. But whatever, I guess.
I don’t think we have played badly because we lack the talent to compete with the teams we have played. We have played badly due to poor coaching, game planning, preparation, execution, and health/availability of key players.
 

daves

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Right now, the teams we'd be favored against are probably Carolina (though we were underdogs against them last week), Houston, Washington, Detroit, Chicago, Pittsburgh, and maybe the Jets.
I'd add the Patriots, Raiders, Giants, & Falcons at least. And there are a bunch of teams that aren't obviously better than the Cards - Browns, Broncos, Lions, Saints, Seahawks, & maybe Vikings.

:shrug:

...dave
 
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kerouac9

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I'd add the Patriots, Raiders, & Giants, & Falcons at least. And there are a bunch of teams that aren't obviously better than the Cards - Browns, Broncos, Lions, Saints, Seahawks, & maybe Vikings.

:shrug:

...dave
We’re not obviously better than them, either. We barely beat the Raiders in OT after a handful of unlikely plays.

I think the Vikings would house us right now, TBH. I’m just not any more satisfied maybe being the worse of the most mediocre teams in the NFL than I am being the best of the real trash of the league either.
 

BritCard

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This isn't meant to be confrontational, but what's your definition of a "good team"?

Is it somewhere in the middle 10 of NFL teams?

Like, I don't think this team is talented enough to beat these teams the majority of the time (any given Sunday, etc., etc.):

Buffalo
Miami
Baltimore
Cincy
KC
Los Angeles Chargers
Philly
Green Bay
Minnesota
Tampa
LA Rams (obviously)

That's 11 teams that IMO we clearly don't have enough talent to compete with. If that was our schedule, I'd expect us to go 3-8.

Right now, the teams we'd be favored against are probably Carolina (though we were underdogs against them last week), Houston, Washington, Detroit, Chicago, Pittsburgh, and maybe the Jets. I just can't define being the best of the worst teams as "good."

That's not how football works.

Nobody had us beating the Titans, Niners, Rams, Browns etc last year.

Chargers got beat by the Jags. Bengals got beat by the Steelers and Cowboys. Chiefs got beat by the Colts.
 

BritCard

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We’re not obviously better than them, either. We barely beat the Raiders in OT after a handful of unlikely plays.

I think the Vikings would house us right now, TBH. I’m just not any more satisfied maybe being the worse of the most mediocre teams in the NFL than I am being the best of the real trash of the league either.

If football was all about how rosters looked on paper it would be pretty dull
 

Cardsfaninlouky

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The consensus right now seems to be that we just survived a tough stretch of the schedule and things will get easier over the next 13 games. Football Outsiders just started adding opponent adjustments into their DVOA formula and ranking the strength of schedule.

Their results tell a different story. Yes, we played the fifth-best team by DVOA to open the season in KC, but since then we've played the 24th- (Vegas), 26th- (LARM), and 28th-ranked teams. Combined, that gives us the second-easiest schedule in the league through four weeks. Only Houston played weaker opponents.

Going forward, we have the fourth-most difficult schedule the rest of the year, with an real test ahead of us. Philly is second in DVOA, Seattle is 13th, New Orleans is 22nd, and Minnesota is 17th.
Philly I understand but N.O & Seattle I'm not believing what they're saying. I believe you read that but no way either of those 2 teams are tougher than the Chiefs or Rams. The thing I don't understand is a few people on here thinking Minnesota is an easy game. I know I've read that on here somewhere. The way we're playing right now, there's no easy games on the schedule. If we start out against Philly the same as the first four games, the game will be over before halftime.
 

Garthshort

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You realize fans aren’t actually part of the Arizona Cardinals organization, no?
I always thought that they were our "12th man" and that was why we lost so often. Also, I'm worried that our FO has been listening to the many GM wanabies on this Board, and that has hurt the team, also.
 

Garthshort

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Seems you don't get out much. Plenty of worse fans out there and it's not even close.

Arizona as a state has a collection of the worst professional sports franchises ever assembled, and again, it's not even close.
Possibly they all have something in common, their fans. You are right about one thing, I don't get out much, but I am happy that at 85 that I'm still above ground. Hope I'm not jinxing myself or the team. :)
 

Zalixar

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Possibly they all have something in common, their fans. You are right about one thing, I don't get out much, but I am happy that at 85 that I'm still above ground. Hope I'm not jinxing myself or the team. :)
That's very true and best of luck on your health. All in all, any fan can be crazy/bad, but there are really others out when their teams are doing well/moderate. AZ fans been so used to losing in historic fashion they deserve a teeny bit of leeway, ha.
 
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kerouac9

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That's not how football works.

Nobody had us beating the Titans, Niners, Rams, Browns etc last year.

Chargers got beat by the Jags. Bengals got beat by the Steelers and Cowboys. Chiefs got beat by the Colts.
Obviously. That's why I said that we'd be 3-8 against those 11 teams. There's more variance in football than there are in a lot of other sports.

That said, the Vegas line against the teams you mentioned was:
@TEN +3 (barely favored when you factor in home field advantage)
SF -5 (we were heavily favored here so you're just way wrong)
CLE +3.5 (see above)

Even then, it looks now like the Jaguars are pretty good and the Chargers might be a little overrated, the skepticism about the Bengals might be warranted (plus Dallas is a pretty good team), and KC lost a one-score game while coming out on the right side of a one-score game. I'm not sure what your point is here.

There's a bunch of teams in the Mediocre Middle of the NFL right now. If you think the Cards belong atop that heap, make that argument. My argument is that they're the best of the bad teams, of which there are vanishingly few left on the schedule.

The hoary "no one expected us to be Tennessee last year" argument should have been locked in a coffin after we got rolled by KC. You and others were asserting this through training camp and the preseason.
 

BritCard

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Obviously. That's why I said that we'd be 3-8 against those 11 teams. There's more variance in football than there are in a lot of other sports.

That said, the Vegas line against the teams you mentioned was:
@TEN +3 (barely favored when you factor in home field advantage)
SF -5 (we were heavily favored here so you're just way wrong)
CLE +3.5 (see above)

Even then, it looks now like the Jaguars are pretty good and the Chargers might be a little overrated, the skepticism about the Bengals might be warranted (plus Dallas is a pretty good team), and KC lost a one-score game while coming out on the right side of a one-score game. I'm not sure what your point is here.

There's a bunch of teams in the Mediocre Middle of the NFL right now. If you think the Cards belong atop that heap, make that argument. My argument is that they're the best of the bad teams, of which there are vanishingly few left on the schedule.

The hoary "no one expected us to be Tennessee last year" argument should have been locked in a coffin after we got rolled by KC. You and others were asserting this through training camp and the preseason.

And I still think this roster is good enough. And if anything the off season complaints make the case.

All off season the complaint was "The offense is good. Probably better than last year. It's going to score points but the defense will let us down"

And if anything it's been the opposite. The defense has been ok and the offense has sucked.

So the talent is there on paper. We have probably the best and deepest O line we have had for decades. Lot's of talent at WR. A great TE room and a super talented QB. They just aren't playing well. They need to fix that.
 
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kerouac9

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And I still think this roster is good enough. And if anything the off season complaints make the case.

All off season the complaint was "The offense is good. Probably better than last year. It's going to score points but the defense will let us down"

And if anything it's been the opposite. The defense has been ok and the offense has sucked.

So the talent is there on paper. We have probably the best and deepest O line we have had for decades. Lot's of talent at WR. A great TE room and a super talented QB. They just aren't playing well. They need to fix that.
The defense has looked okay because the opposing offenses have gotten worse each week. 5th, 20th, 26th, 31st by DVOA. Philly's offense is currently 5th in DVOA (go ahead and cross-check this against whatever your preferred metric is if you liked).

Dunno who was saying the offense is better than last year's. Wasn't me. I think the plan was that it was time for the offense to take control of the team, and they've dropped the ball in an enormous way.
 

Stout

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And I still think this roster is good enough. And if anything the off season complaints make the case.

All off season the complaint was "The offense is good. Probably better than last year. It's going to score points but the defense will let us down"

And if anything it's been the opposite. The defense has been ok and the offense has sucked.

So the talent is there on paper. We have probably the best and deepest O line we have had for decades. Lot's of talent at WR. A great TE room and a super talented QB. They just aren't playing well. They need to fix that.
Whoa, no, that is not accurate. That's the theory you pushed. Many complaints centered around the roster not being as good as last year, and that includes on offense, especially considering Nuke's suspension. Yes, the consensus was that the offense would have to carry the defense. Thus far, you are correct, in that this hasn't happened.

You were also the one pushing the "great TE room and lots of talent at WR." Many others didn't see it that way. We definitely don't have a "great" TE room and don't have enough talent at WR. Once we get Nuke back, if we can stay healthy, if we get rid of Green (still support that one?) and if we can get something out of Moore, we will have adequate talent at the position.

You're quite right that we need to get more out of the offense, though.
 

dreamcastrocks

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Whoa, no, that is not accurate. That's the theory you pushed. Many complaints centered around the roster not being as good as last year, and that includes on offense, especially considering Nuke's suspension. Yes, the consensus was that the offense would have to carry the defense. Thus far, you are correct, in that this hasn't happened.

You were also the one pushing the "great TE room and lots of talent at WR." Many others didn't see it that way. We definitely don't have a "great" TE room and don't have enough talent at WR. Once we get Nuke back, if we can stay healthy, if we get rid of Green (still support that one?) and if we can get something out of Moore, we will have adequate talent at the position.

You're quite right that we need to get more out of the offense, though.
You might want to know that D-Hop's nickname is Nuk (as in the pacifier) and not Nuke.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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I always thought that they were our "12th man" and that was why we lost so often. Also, I'm worried that our FO has been listening to the many GM wanabies on this Board, and that has hurt the team, also.
I don’t know if this post is serious or not, but if it is, LOL at only criticizing the fans for this team’s performance. That’s the funniest post of the year if that’s the case.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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The defense has looked okay because the opposing offenses have gotten worse each week. 5th, 20th, 26th, 31st by DVOA. Philly's offense is currently 5th in DVOA (go ahead and cross-check this against whatever your preferred metric is if you liked).

Dunno who was saying the offense is better than last year's. Wasn't me. I think the plan was that it was time for the offense to take control of the team, and they've dropped the ball in an enormous way.
Yeah, agree strongly with k9 here. Claiming this is gaslighting.
 

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