Thunder @ Suns 4-6-14

elindholm

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But I don't have a problem with any of those points. I might shade them a bit differently but they're all valid points and they have nothing to do with what I've taken issue with.

So what have you taken issue with?

And he doesn't fit the mold of a true point guard or a true shooting guard. He's still one heck of a basketball player IMO and I think that's a lot more relevant than whether or not he fits a specific label.

The problem is that sometimes you say he's "one heck of a" player, and other times you say he's on track to become a top-five player in the league. To most of us, there's quite a gap between those statements. Do you intend for there to be a gap, or do you intend for them to mean basically the same thing? No one is disagreeing that he's a good player. I'd even go far enough to say that he's above average among the league's starting guards, probably. But that's a huge difference from the level of praise you've been prone to heap on him.
 

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My only problem with Bledsoe is that he has taken the PG spot from Dragic and forced him to play SG. Obviously because he can't play SG.

We all agree Dragic is currently the better PG. Bledsoe might or probably will surpass him if his injuries don't plague him.

People keep saying how much better Suns are with him, but that would be probably true with a Top 20 SG also. He is just another option in attack when the now benched guys were not doing their jobs. Its normal they are winning more with one more offensive/defensive option.

The rest of the team besides Dragic was probably playing one good game out of four during the time Bledsoe was injured. If either three of the players from Morris twins, Fry, Green and Tucker had a bad night ... it was bye bye.
Most irritating was that this happened usually versus mediocre teams when they had nothing to prove.

My only question is if its worth more for the future signing a non-max SG or signing Bledsoe at max and hoping the future brings results. In the short term a good SG would be better in the long run Bledsoe could be a top 5 PG.

And YES I am from Slovenia ... I don't hate Bledsoe and Horny is just using him the best he can, but I also don't think he deserves max right now , but the Suns will probably lose him if they don't match it. I would not like to be Dragic then when he has a player option choice to make after that.

That would be my 2c
 
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elindholm

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My only question is if its worth more for the future signing a non-max SG or signing Bledsoe at max and hoping the future brings results. In the short term a good SG would be better in the long run Bledsoe could be a top 5 PG.

I'm fine with Green at SG. I think he can be an average-level starter at that position, maybe a bit above average. The choice shouldn't be between Bledsoe and a SG, but between Bledsoe and a PF. That's where the Suns have the greatest need.
 

Catlover

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The problem is that sometimes you say he's "one heck of a" player, and other times you say he's on track to become a top-five player in the league. To most of us, there's quite a gap between those statements. Do you intend for there to be a gap, or do you intend for them to mean basically the same thing? No one is disagreeing that he's a good player. I'd even go far enough to say that he's above average among the league's starting guards, probably. But that's a huge difference from the level of praise you've been prone to heap on him.

I think you significantly underestimate the value of Bledsoe while slightly overstating my position on him. I think he's a very good player already. Top 20, top 25 something like that. He's not quite back to the player he was when he went down against the Clippers but to me it seems clear he's having a huge impact on this team. I think he has the potential to become a top 5 player and if you compare him to where he was this time last season, I think "on track" is a reasonable statement.
 

Catlover

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My only problem with Bledsoe is that he has taken the PG spot from Dragic and forced him to play SG. Obviously because he can't play SG.

I don't know why anyone would have a problem with that. Dragic has moved into the upper status in the league in large part because of what he can do as a scoring guard whether it's at the one or the two. I liken him to Harden and IMO if Eric had stayed healthy all season there would have been a serious argument over who was the best two in the league. Goran is still running the offense for a good part of the game and the presence of Bledsoe gives him the room and opportunity to do what he does best.
 

elindholm

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I think he's a very good player already. Top 20, top 25 something like that.

And I'm saying that this is very far from a position that would be widely held by those who follow the league.

If you don't believe me, let's wait until the All-NBA voting comes out. Three overall teams and two defensive teams is potentially 25 players. There will be some overlap, so it will probably end up being around 20 total names. A top-25 player should at least get a vote or two for one team or the other, don't you think? So let's see whether Bledsoe gets more than a single token vote for any of the all-NBA teams.

(Edit: By contrast, I expect to see Dragic get more than a handful of votes, and it wouldn't surprise me if he ends up making the All-NBA third team.)

For a position to be so far away from common thinking does not mean that it's wrong. It certainly can happen that most of the world is wrong and only a few people see the truth. But staking out such an outlier position is provoking. So if you're going to say something provoking, I have three options:

a) indicate that I more or less agree, which would be dishonest;
b) indicate that I do not agree, which you interpret as hostile; or
c) ignore you altogether

I find (a) unacceptable, so I've been opting for (b), but that is proving to be more trouble than it's worth. Should I just move on to (c) and be done with it, or are you prepared to entertain disagreements without disqualifying the conversation as too combative for your liking?
 
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Catlover

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And I'm saying that this is very far from a position that would be widely held by those who follow the league.

If you don't believe me, let's wait until the All-NBA voting comes out. Three overall teams and two defensive teams is potentially 25 players. There will be some overlap, so it will probably end up being around 20 total names. A top-25 player should at least get a vote or two for one team or the other, don't you think? So let's see whether Bledsoe gets more than a single token vote for any of the all-NBA teams.

For a position to be so far away from common thinking does not mean that it's wrong. It certainly can happen that most of the world is wrong and only a few people see the truth. But staking out such an outlier position is provoking. So if you're going to say something provoking, I have three options:

a) indicate that I more or less agree, which would be dishonest;
b) indicate that I do not agree, which you interpret as hostile; or
c) ignore you altogether

I find (a) unacceptable, so I've been opting for (b), but that is proving to be more trouble than it's worth. Should I just move on to (c) and be done with it, or are you prepared to entertain disagreements without disqualifying the conversation as too combative for your liking?

Show me where you've simply disagreed and I've labeled it hostile. I'm willing to engage in disagreement but I have to believe we've more than reached the point where the other members are tired of hearing what I have to say on the subject. But you often play dirty while accusing others of the same. For example, you take issue with being called a hater and how that impedes honest discussion while at the same time you accused those that disagreed with you of having started a near-riot.

You don't think that missing half the season is going to take someone like Bledsoe completely out of the running for All NBA honors? Of course he has no chance nor should he. Even if he'd played the whole season the odds of that kind of recognition would have been slim. We've been the talk of the league in many ways but it's mostly just an "aren't they special" kind of thing and then they go back to watching and discussing the teams that matter. We weren't expected to be one of them and we've had minimal national exposure as a result. It's the same reason that a few weeks before the All Star voting closed, Dragic was getting absolutely no consideration for a spot despite stellar play.

A better test of his value will come this offseason. Let's see who pursues him and what they offer. That's not a perfect test, there are always players that get unreasonable offers (Rashard Lewis, Eric Gordon etc) but it's a better test than the one you've suggested.
 

elindholm

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It's the same reason that a few weeks before the All Star voting closed, Dragic was getting absolutely no consideration for a spot despite stellar play.

That's completely untrue. Leading up to the announcement of reserves, practically every writer identified Dragic as a fringe candidate. Most correctly predicted that he would just miss the cut, but as soon as that happened, he was near the top of most people's "snubbed" list.

Let's see who pursues him and what they offer. That's not a perfect test, there are always players that get unreasonable offers (Rashard Lewis, Eric Gordon etc) but it's a better test than the one you've suggested.

I guess. There are 30 teams and most figure to have at least one maximum-salaried player, so even the max-salary club is easier to break into than the top-25 club. I'll be reasonably surprised if Bledsoe gets a maximum offer from anyone, but not overwhelmingly so -- I'd put the odds at maybe 2:1 against. I'll be dismayed, however, if the Suns match such an offer. If they can get him extended for ballpark $40M/4 I'll say they've done a good job; keep in mind that this would make him the highest-paid player on the team by a wide margin. Unfortunately we all know that young players almost always receive extensions for way beyond what they appear to have shown their value to be. I suspect we have another Joe Johnson situation looming.
 

Cheesebeef

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where in the world does it say that it's gotta be Bledsoe OR a PF?! We are only in year 1 of a complete rebuild, stocked with draft picks and cap space. Even with Bledsoe for only half a season, we've won 20 more games then last season. That's a HUGE leap and it was done with great scouting and one trade in which the only asset we gave up was Jared Dudley.

The idea that we're "this close" and have to decide between Bledsoe and this phantom PF who's apparently out there that no one can identify just seems like people are way too antsy. Why not just be patient here?

I mean, Eric, you've already begged for this "experiment to end" or something to that effect, even though, again, we've won 20 games more this season then last, we have six first round draft picks in the next two years and salary cap room moving forward. You act like the experiment has already blown up in our face when the reality is that this team has had incredibly good chemistry when everyone's healthy, running up a 26-12 record that has a number of really impressive wins there.

why not see if we can build ON TOP of that rather then already start taking away the pieces of this team that has made them successful?
 
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Cheesebeef

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And I'm saying that this is very far from a position that would be widely held by those who follow the league.

If you don't believe me, let's wait until the All-NBA voting comes out. Three overall teams and two defensive teams is potentially 25 players. There will be some overlap, so it will probably end up being around 20 total names. A top-25 player should at least get a vote or two for one team or the other, don't you think? So let's see whether Bledsoe gets more than a single token vote for any of the all-NBA teams.

while I don't agree that Bledsoe is at the level that Cat does, the above is such a specious argument because Bledsoe missed half the season, so of course he's not going to get that kind of love.
 

Catlover

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That's completely untrue. Leading up to the announcement of reserves, practically every writer identified Dragic as a fringe candidate. Most correctly predicted that he would just miss the cut, but as soon as that happened, he was near the top of most people's "snubbed" list.

Sorry, it just isn't "untrue". A few weeks before the voting closed (which is the time frame I established for my point) Dragic simply wasn't in the All Star conversation. Not even among the Suns broadcast group. They asked each of them many times and early on, to the best of my recollection, not one of them chose Goran. Then, Dragic had that great run and sometime during that run his name started circulating. Eddie and Tom Chambers started trumpeting his cause but as I said, even they were late arrivals. By the time the Coaches named the backups he was a legit option but earlier he was ignored by pretty much everyone. I think The Starters show on NBA TV was probably the first nationally to point out he deserved recognition and that was right around the time the voting window closed.

I guess. There are 30 teams and most figure to have at least one maximum-salaried player, so even the max-salary club is easier to break into than the top-25 club. I'll be reasonably surprised if Bledsoe gets a maximum offer from anyone, but not overwhelmingly so -- I'd put the odds at maybe 2:1 against. I'll be dismayed, however, if the Suns match such an offer. If they can get him extended for ballpark $40M/4 I'll say they've done a good job; keep in mind that this would make him the highest-paid player on the team by a wide margin. Unfortunately we all know that young players almost always receive extensions for way beyond what they appear to have shown their value to be. I suspect we have another Joe Johnson situation looming.

I don't see any chance of that happening. We were very fortunate to get Nash and Dragic at bargain rates but I suspect we'll have to step all the way up to keep Bledsoe. I won't be broken-hearted if we trade him for good value but I'd hate to see us have to let another star walk for nothing.
 

elindholm

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A few weeks before the voting closed (which is the time frame I established for my point) Dragic simply wasn't in the All Star conversation.

Okay, I'll admit that I don't remember the chronology to that degree of specificity, so I retract my rebuttal.

I don't see any chance of that happening. We were very fortunate to get Nash and Dragic at bargain rates but I suspect we'll have to step all the way up to keep Bledsoe.

That's probably true, unfortunately. Overpaying for second-tier talent, for a team that is trying to be cost-conscious, is the surest way of limiting a franchise's ceiling. But circumstances are what they are.
 

SirStefan32

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I don't see any chance of that happening. We were very fortunate to get Nash and Dragic at bargain rates but I suspect we'll have to step all the way up to keep Bledsoe. I won't be broken-hearted if we trade him for good value but I'd hate to see us have to let another star walk for nothing.

Good Lord- A STAR? 17 points, 5 assists, and 3 turnovers per game while shooting 46% from the field and 34% from the three point line in 32 minutes per game while missing more than half a season due to repeat injuries. How is that a star? Don't get me wrong, I don't want to lose Bledsoe for nothing, but let's not be dramatic and call him a star. :bang:
 

Cheesebeef

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Okay, I'll admit that I don't remember the chronology to that degree of specificity, so I retract my rebuttal.



That's probably true, unfortunately. Overpaying for second-tier talent, for a team that is trying to be cost-conscious, is the surest way of limiting a franchise's ceiling. But circumstances are what they are.

second tier talent...you say that as if it's iron clad. I understand people being leery of Bledsoe because of injury concerns, but that guy has a ton of talent and his impact on the team really can't be up for debate.
 

SirStefan32

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That's completely untrue. Leading up to the announcement of reserves, practically every writer identified Dragic as a fringe candidate. Most correctly predicted that he would just miss the cut, but as soon as that happened, he was near the top of most people's "snubbed" list.



I guess. There are 30 teams and most figure to have at least one maximum-salaried player, so even the max-salary club is easier to break into than the top-25 club. I'll be reasonably surprised if Bledsoe gets a maximum offer from anyone, but not overwhelmingly so -- I'd put the odds at maybe 2:1 against. I'll be dismayed, however, if the Suns match such an offer. If they can get him extended for ballpark $40M/4 I'll say they've done a good job; keep in mind that this would make him the highest-paid player on the team by a wide margin. Unfortunately we all know that young players almost always receive extensions for way beyond what they appear to have shown their value to be. I suspect we have another Joe Johnson situation looming.

Heh, I was just thinking the same thing. Everyone thought Johnson was the "Star" we needed, and in my opinion, he is still the most overrated player in the NBA. All these years later, people still complain about the Suns letting him go (well, trading him.)
 

Cheesebeef

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Good Lord- A STAR? 17 points, 5 assists, and 3 turnovers per game while shooting 46% from the field and 34% from the three point line in 32 minutes per game while missing more than half a season due to repeat injuries. How is that a star? Don't get me wrong, I don't want to lose Bledsoe for nothing, but let's not be dramatic and call him a star. :bang:

Why is it you completely ignore the fact that he's a dynamic defensive player...or leave out his 5 rebounds per game when talking about Bledsoe?

Haven't you learned anything from watching the Suns for decades that not everything is about offense? The guy is a very good offensive player and a great defensive player. The only thing this season keeping him from being a star are his injuries...which are definitely a concern.
 

Catlover

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Good Lord- A STAR? 17 points, 5 assists, and 3 turnovers per game while shooting 46% from the field and 34% from the three point line in 32 minutes per game while missing more than half a season due to repeat injuries. How is that a star? Don't get me wrong, I don't want to lose Bledsoe for nothing, but let's not be dramatic and call him a star. :bang:

Does the head banging smilie, the all caps word and the Good Lord exclamation mean that you possibly, maybe, might not entirely agree with me 100%? Because, subtle though you were, that's the message I'm picking up from you.

Yes, I think he's a star, undefined as it is. And I wasn't being dramatic. I was being consistent, right or wrong.
 

sunsfan88

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Why is it you completely ignore the fact that he's a dynamic defensive player...or leave out his 5 rebounds per game when talking about Bledsoe?

Haven't you learned anything from watching the Suns for decades that not everything is about offense? The guy is a very good offensive player and a great defensive player. The only thing this season keeping him from being a star are his injuries...which are definitely a concern.
His defense is incredibly overrated. Darren Collison and CP3 took turns breaking his ankles against the Clippers. And then yesterday Westbrook got to the rim at ease against Bledsoe so they switched and had Dragic guard WB in the 4th for quite a few possessions. Westbrook played worse against Ish than he did against Bledsoe.

He's good at reading the offense, anticipating passes and giving help to other defenders but his one on one defense really isn't all that great.
 

elindholm

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His defense is incredibly overrated. Darren Collison and CP3 took turns breaking his ankles against the Clippers. And then yesterday Westbrook got to the rim at ease against Bledsoe so they switched and had Dragic guard WB in the 4th for quite a few possessions.

So far I'd have to agree with that. However, he does have very quick hands: he stripped Durant clean at least once, and not many players in the league can do that. There's no shame in getting lit up by Westbrook, but it did seem that Westbrook got to the rim with remarkable ease when Bledsoe was on him. Bledsoe can cause important disruption on the defensive end, but he's a long way from being a lock-down defender. And obviously the Suns are still below average as a team defensively.
 

Bert

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His defense is incredibly overrated. Darren Collison and CP3 took turns breaking his ankles against the Clippers. And then yesterday Westbrook got to the rim at ease against Bledsoe so they switched and had Dragic guard WB in the 4th for quite a few possessions. Westbrook played worse against Ish than he did against Bledsoe.

He's good at reading the offense, anticipating passes and giving help to other defenders but his one on one defense really isn't all that great.

I disagree i think he's appropriately rated on his defensive skill. CP3 breaks everyones ankles. Just like Lebron, nobody SHUTS those guys down. People (Marion haters) used to play this card all the time when the Suns would play big matchups like the Lakers or similar teams with scorers...

"See Kobe still got 40 and Marion was guarding him, he's such an overrated defender."

Good scorers will score no matter who is defending them. Bledsoe makes it difficult, which is what his job is. Like last night, he CLEARLY took Westbrook out of his game, to the point where at times it became a vendetta and Westbrook cared more about scoring on Bledsoe than his team winning the game. Westbrook's +/- was -9 last night. That's a win for Bledsoe and he missed sometime due to the hand issue.
 

Catlover

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His defense is incredibly overrated. Darren Collison and CP3 took turns breaking his ankles against the Clippers. And then yesterday Westbrook got to the rim at ease against Bledsoe so they switched and had Dragic guard WB in the 4th for quite a few possessions. Westbrook played worse against Ish than he did against Bledsoe.

He's good at reading the offense, anticipating passes and giving help to other defenders but his one on one defense really isn't all that great.

You're funny. So when Chris Paul went 11 for 31 in his last two match ups against Bledsoe, that's your definition of overrated? I'll take that kind of overrated defense any day of the week. And Westbrook was hounded most of the game by Bledsoe, not Dragic and Eric wore him out on both ends of the court. He held him to 2 for 9 shooting from three point range and eventually fouled him out. Mind you, you're talking about his defense on two of the best guards in the league too.
 

Phrazbit

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His defense is incredibly overrated. Darren Collison and CP3 took turns breaking his ankles against the Clippers. And then yesterday Westbrook got to the rim at ease against Bledsoe so they switched and had Dragic guard WB in the 4th for quite a few possessions. Westbrook played worse against Ish than he did against Bledsoe.

He's good at reading the offense, anticipating passes and giving help to other defenders but his one on one defense really isn't all that great.

And yet the Suns as a team are substantially better defensively when Bledsoe is in the game. They give up 5 less points per 100 possessions when he is on the court, opposing shooting drops by nearly 3% when Bledsoe is playing. And the Suns go from 20-19 without him to being 26-12 when he has played. A winning percentage that would put them 5th in the entire league over the season.

And I know you looooooove to spout nonsense on the prayer that no one looks it up, but last night Westbrook was 9-23 and scored 21 points while Bledsoe was in the game, leaving him 3-3 and scoring 12 when Bledsoe was resting. So clearly Ish was not troubling him too much compared to Bledsoe.

And in the Clipper game Paul shot 6-17... but hey, those 6 makes apperently came on "ankle breakers", how embarrassing.
 
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SirStefan32

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While I'll concede that Bledsoe MAY be overrated when it comes to defense, I'd argue that he is a very good defender, and that he is by far the best defender the Suns have. Nobody shuts down Paul or even Westbrook. There is a reason those two guys are probably the two best PGs in the NBA right now. There is no shame in getting lit up by Westbrook.

EDIT:
Some players you just can't stop. All you can do is make them work for every shot, which, in my opinion, Bledsoe does on regular basis.
 

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While I'll concede that Bledsoe MAY be overrated when it comes to defense, I'd argue that he is a very good defender, and that he is by far the best defender the Suns have. Nobody shuts down Paul or even Westbrook. There is a reason those two guys are probably the two best PGs in the NBA right now. There is no shame in getting lit up by Westbrook.

EDIT:
Some players you just can't stop. All you can do is make them work for every shot, which, in my opinion, Bledsoe does on regular basis.

Don't forget about Tucker!
 

sunsfan88

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You're funny. So when Chris Paul went 11 for 31 in his last two match ups against Bledsoe, that's your definition of overrated? I'll take that kind of overrated defense any day of the week. And Westbrook was hounded most of the game by Bledsoe, not Dragic and Eric wore him out on both ends of the court. He held him to 2 for 9 shooting from three point range and eventually fouled him out. Mind you, you're talking about his defense on two of the best guards in the league too.
Bledsoe didn't guard those guys the whole game. And no watch the game again, Dragic was guarding Westbrook in the 4th QTR quite a bit.
And yet the Suns as a team are substantially better defensively when Bledsoe is in the game. They give up 5 less points per 100 possessions when he is on the court, opposing shooting drops by nearly 3% when Bledsoe is playing. And the Suns go from 20-19 without him to being 26-12 when he has played. A winning percentage that would put them 5th in the entire league over the season.

And I know you looooooove to spout nonsense on the prayer that no one looks it up, but last night Westbrook was 9-23 and scored 21 points while Bledsoe was in the game, leaving him 3-3 and scoring 12 when Bledsoe was resting. So clearly Ish was not troubling him too much compared to Bledsoe.

And in the Clipper game Paul shot 6-17... but hey, those 6 makes apperently came on "ankle breakers", how embarrassing.
Lol "per 100 possesssions" who the f*** uses that kind of s**t? Please tell me what Blesdoe's defensive win shares are next. Or his per 500 defensive win shares. Or plus 1000 if there's such a thing.

And my god, just because Bledsoe was in the game doesn't mean he was guarding Westbrook. Dragic could have been guarding him with Bledsoe providing help which is good at.

And I already said Bledsoe is a a great team defender so its not surprising that we give up less when he is in the game than when he's not. The steal he had on Durant is a good example of that. I'm talking about strictly his on ball defense.

And I'm not even saying that his on ball defense is bad, I just don't think its as good as some people think it is.

Please take a reading class when you go to college.
 
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