Thinking out loud defense question

[Russ Smith]

I know it's 11 not 5 but when you have a player like PP, and the opponent has a guy like Thomas who's the target of so many plays, how come you never see NFL teams play a version of the box and 1 like basketball? NFL teams do zone blitzes, they do all sorts of combination coverages but I can't recall ever seeing or hearing an announcer say that a team was playing 1 player man to man and the rest of the defense is in zone?

I can see it might be somewhat confusing but teams so play 5 or more DB's regularly now anyways so you can still have 2 CB's and 2 safeties or 1 and 3, and just have PP shadowing Thomas all over the field.

Probably not something you do the whole game but break out in certain situations to surprise the QB?

 

[kerouac9]

I think the geometry of the field is what challenges that approach. If you have Peterson split wide with another WR in the slot, your slot receiver now has to be able to take zone responsibility over half the field from an inside position, and then the safety or OLB has to cover the inside zone against the slot.

I'm sure teams do this kind of thing more frequently than you think.

 

[Russ Smith]

I think the geometry of the field is what challenges that approach. If you have Peterson split wide with another WR in the slot, your slot receiver now has to be able to take zone responsibility over half the field from an inside position, and then the safety or OLB has to cover the inside zone against the slot.

I'm sure teams do this kind of thing more frequently than you think.

I guess that's what I'm asking do teams do it and I just don't know or is there a reason.

In your scenario he only has to cover the whole side if there's 3 guys on that side because again PP has Thomas no matter where he lines up. as long as the other DB's understand the scheme, and we have 5 DB's on the field often, it seems to me we could play it now and then and fool a QB.

More thinking in terms of 6 weeks of playing quite a bit of zone and now with PP back we presumably want to play much more man.

 

[BigDavis75]

Like K9 is saying the logistics of covering PPs side with a zone is really tough. Payton would pick up on the approach and start running Thomas on clear out routes and hammer that side of the field.

 

[RON_IN_OC]

Personally, if Bridgewater is the QB on Sunday they should double team Thomas with Murphy and Brock/Safety...and have PP21 on the #2 receiver man2man...If it's Brees, then you have PP21 cover Thomas all day.

 

[Russ Smith]

Like K9 is saying the logistics of covering PPs side with a zone is really tough. Payton would pick up on the approach and start running Thomas on clear out routes and hammer that side of the field.

I get what you're saying I don't think you get what I'm saying. I'm saying PP covers Thomas, and you have 4 DB's in a standard zone. So you still have a DB on each side plus 2 safeties in whatever alignment you want. But PP is covering man to man. So they can't overload PP's side without putting 3 guys on it, PP is still covering 1 then you just have the CB and S in zone on the other 2 like you would when they try to flood a normal zone.

I'm not claiming to have invented the wheel or anything but with the amount of times we have 5 or 6 DB's out there it seems like if we wanted to we could play PP man and still run that zone we were running before PP got back.

 

[kerouac9]

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It's hard enough to cover the field in zone with 5 defensive backs and 2 linebackers. It's almost impossible to do so with 4 defensive backs and 2 linebackers.

In this case, the slot corner has to play with outside leverage, because he doesn't have any help out there if Patrick's man runs an in route. The safety has to start moving backward in case there's a post.

I think, in general, if you're a defensive coordinator, you probably want to sacrifice a player to rush the passer and then play coverage behind him. You're basically saying, "Why don't they do a CB blitz, but with coverage"?

 

[Russ Smith]

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It's hard enough to cover the field in zone with 5 defensive backs and 2 linebackers. It's almost impossible to do so with 4 defensive backs and 2 linebackers.

In this case, the slot corner has to play with outside leverage, because he doesn't have any help out there if Patrick's man runs an in route. The safety has to start moving backward in case there's a post.

I think, in general, if you're a defensive coordinator, you probably want to sacrifice a player to rush the passer and then play coverage behind him. You're basically saying, "Why don't they do a CB blitz, but with coverage"?

Disagree. If you blitz a corner you're in effect assigning the CB to the QB who you don't normally "cover" so you're a man short on the back end.

what I'm proposing you're not a man short that guy is still in the back he's just covering Thomas man to man. In your picture I've got 6 defenders in a zone, 4 DB's and 2 LB's, and 4 guys rushing, and 1 guy covering man to man. They have 5 (at most) guys in the pattern and only 4 of them are going against my zone of 6 guys. They have 5 guys blocking and the QB that are not involved in the pattern.

again I'm not saying I just invented the perfect defense I'm just curious why i've never seen it they only have 4 receivers to attack my 6 man zone and one of them is coming out of the backfield so my zone has time to see where he's going. My biggest fear would be them running the ball because I've only got 6 in the box.

 

[Russ Smith]

Like K9 is saying the logistics of covering PPs side with a zone is really tough. Payton would pick up on the approach and start running Thomas on clear out routes and hammer that side of the field.

If you're following me PP doesn't have a side, he has a man. Even if his man goes into the zone, he's still man on the guy. You still have 2 safeties one of whom can help on deeper routes.

So if Thomas runs a clear out(deep route) the left with PP on him I've still got 2 guys on that side against their 1 receiver, unless the RB goes that way in which case i've got 3 because now my LB in that zone is involved. I'm not saying the O's are going to stand still like statues while the Xes run around and find the openings, that's not how a normal zone works and it's not how this one would.

The idea is to do it a few times a game to confuse the QB. They have pre snap reads they figure out doing things like put the WR in motion if the guy goes with him it's man, if they don't it's zone. We like to spread DJ out if the LB goes with him it's man, if he doesn't it's zone. In this scenario they put Thomas in motion, PP goes with him hey it's man, except PP is the only guy in man. If they put Kamara out no LB goes with him, hey it's zone but PP is still covering Thomas in man.

They still only have 11 guys on offense the only way they can flood my zone is by putting Thomas into the part of the field where there's already a zone which is fine with me. If he just takes off deep on every play to clear out the zone I like that too, I want them to throw to someone other than Thomas, just like in basketball I'm fine with the other 4 guys shooting open jumpers because we're playing man on Steph Curry, that's the whole reason I'm playing a box and 1 I want someone other than Curry to shoot. It works better in basketball because there's only 5 players, if you just played this every down by all means the offense would start to pick it apart but I'm not advocating playing it as a base defense just something now and then.

 

[BigDavis75]

If you're following me PP doesn't have a side, he has a man. Even if his man goes into the zone, he's still man on the guy. You still have 2 safeties one of whom can help on deeper routes.

So if Thomas runs a clear out(deep route) the left with PP on him I've still got 2 guys on that side against their 1 receiver, unless the RB goes that way in which case i've got 3 because now my LB in that zone is involved. I'm not saying the O's are going to stand still like statues while the Xes run around and find the openings, that's not how a normal zone works and it's not how this one would.

The idea is to do it a few times a game to confuse the QB. They have pre snap reads they figure out doing things like put the WR in motion if the guy goes with him it's man, if they don't it's zone. We like to spread DJ out if the LB goes with him it's man, if he doesn't it's zone. In this scenario they put Thomas in motion, PP goes with him hey it's man, except PP is the only guy in man. If they put Kamara out no LB goes with him, hey it's zone but PP is still covering Thomas in man.

They still only have 11 guys on offense the only way they can flood my zone is by putting Thomas into the part of the field where there's already a zone which is fine with me. If he just takes off deep on every play to clear out the zone I like that too, I want them to throw to someone other than Thomas, just like in basketball I'm fine with the other 4 guys shooting open jumpers because we're playing man on Steph Curry, that's the whole reason I'm playing a box and 1 I want someone other than Curry to shoot. It works better in basketball because there's only 5 players, if you just played this every down by all means the offense would start to pick it apart but I'm not advocating playing it as a base defense just something now and then.

Gotcha, I was under the impression you were advocating for it as a general approach. I think part of the issue is teaching it as well. If you have PP playing man in someone else's zone it can cause a ton of confusion for our secondary because there's a lot of instinctual aspects to zones as far as depth and handoffs and being able to make a split second determination that someone is playing man could be difficult. I also don't think the basketball analogy holds any water because we don't want these other guys to be catching the ball. Sure this serves to hopefully reduce Thomas' impact but the Saints have a number of capable receivers where everyone needs to be covered. It's not the same as forcing Kevin Looney or Draymond Green to beat you on the perimeter.

 

[Russ Smith]

Gotcha, I was under the impression you were advocating for it as a general approach. I think part of the issue is teaching it as well. If you have PP playing man in someone else's zone it can cause a ton of confusion for our secondary because there's a lot of instinctual aspects to zones as far as depth and handoffs and being able to make a split second determination that someone is playing man could be difficult. I also don't think the basketball analogy holds any water because we don't want these other guys to be catching the ball. Sure this serves to hopefully reduce Thomas' impact but the Saints have a number of capable receivers where everyone needs to be covered. It's not the same as forcing Kevin Looney or Draymond Green to beat you on the perimeter.

Agreed there the difference between Curry and Green is not equal to the difference between Thomas and the other Saints receivers, it's much greater. I just think it's one of those things where in a few big situations if you can confuse the QB when he probably wants to go to his best player, it's a good idea to consider it.

I do agree with 3 rookies playing lots it might be confusing but that's actually part of why I brought it up, they've been playing mostly zone until PP got back. So they're probably more comfortable in that right now anyways.

I'm a big believer in some times if you don't have the talent edge(and we won't against the Saints) you have to try other things to win the game.

I remember reading an article about the zone blitz and Dick Lebeau who invented it and he said basically I was trying to find a way to blitz that didn't leave you in zero coverage and totally exposed if the QB picked it up fast enough. So he said I hit on the idea that most teams teach the QB to throw to where the blitz comes from, the S comes from your left the hot read is to your left where the safety came from. So we bring the safety, but we drop the DL in the area the Safety came from which confuses the QB he has to hold the ball a second longer and the blitz gets to him.