The Wizard of Was

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It just summarizes what has been said here for months now. There are two camps here concerning Leinart and two camps for Whiz.

I think the one thing everyone agrees on is this is not going to get fix over one year. I believe we will suffer through at least one more bad season and even maybe two and that's if the powers in place do the right things. If they don't it will be even longer before we see a competitive team again.

What has happened should have not happened at all this year...!!! Being an egotist as Whiz is it may take a coaching change to rectify the damage Whiz has done to this team. Letting "Q" go, creating a public condemnation of Matt so the Fans and teammates would not fully support Matt. I bet if you asked the players now about Matt I bet that they would like to have him back. There is always hope.

BOBCAT :sad: :) :)
 

TJ

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I agree Harry that the Leinart decision should have been made sooner rather than later. If Whis had any doubt in his mind about him moving forward, he should have cut or traded him in previous seasons. Moreover, it would have given us the opportunity to either a) draft a QB in early rounds the past couple of seasons or b) sign a competent free agent early this offseason. Derek Anderson sucks ass. There are no two ways about it. I would rather have JaMarcus Russell. Dead serious. More realistically, I would rather have Leinart back.

As for the pass rush. I put this on Bill Davis and his schemes. Playing corners 10 yards off the LOS, soft zone and safeties constantly underneath, we are a liability for big pass plays amongst other weaknesses. I am a firm believer that a simple change at DC will have a tremendous impact. We have good players on defense, but as it stands, they are a sum or parts and not a whole. Defenses with less talented players are performing at a higher level because the coordinator knows what he's doing. In addition to which, the ineptitude on the offensive side of the ball is cutting into the defense's performance. Constant 3 and out situations puts the defense back on the field in mere minutes; not enough time to catch their breath. By the 4th quarter, they are winded and can't keep up with the opposition's offense. See the Vikings game. Players like Dan Williams, who is not exactly fit as a fiddle, cannot operate at an optimal level.

Is this brought on by Whis? Yes. But before fans begin bringing out pitchforks and torches, we have to remember what the man has done for the franchise. W/o Whis, we are probably still the doormat of the league. He has done far more good than bad and I have faith that over the offseason, we will improve.
 
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TJ

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Agree.

I also want to counter the Todd Haley/Warner made Whisenhunt argument.

What about last season? With a lackluster running game (which did improve over the course of the season) and a seriously banged up Kurt Warner, our offense still produced with Whisenhunt calling the plays. I think that Derrick Anderson is just that bad! He struggles to complete basic NFL throws, which is why he fails so often on third down.

How often have we seen Anderson throw a terrible pass or a barely off the mark pass on third down so far this season? It's hard to fault the offensive playcaller when his QB fails to complete even the most basic pass plays. So why not run more? Well were not exactly a good running team either. We run well in spurts but can't consistently grind an opposing defense.

Agree 100%. Whis does just fine as OC. Anderson is bad enough to single handedly ruin an entire offense.

People like to point to Haley's departure as the reason our offense sputtered last season. First, recall that Kurt had offseason hip surgery, an injured shoulder and multiple concussions that hindered his performance. He was never 100% according to Chris Miller. That hindered our ability to throw the deep ball, which is Fitz's bread and butter. I can only remember three instances where we tried to go long. Moreover, Whis has had success as a play caller for the Steelers, where he had the opportunity to run a Superbowl winning offense. The whole "let's hire an OC" thing is kind of ridiculous to be honest.
 

ASUCHRIS

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At least it's a well thought out and well reasoned criticism. Much better than the endless and misguided criticism by several serial whiners that has made things almost intolerable here.
 

Rats

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The whole "let's hire an OC" thing is kind of ridiculous to be honest.

Yeah, well if no OC is brought in and we suck ass again on offense there will be no defense for you guys who have your face clearly planted in Whis' keister. There are less and less of you with every passing game, no pun intended. Watch the games and you will clearly see he is a terrible game manger and his X and O play calling is amateurish with or without a good Qb. Warner was good enough to look at the defense and make a call and change a play. The guys Whis installed are not and his reaction in game leaves alot to be desired. We need a good offensive coordinator and Whis sucks at it. That is a proven fact. Look at the numbers without Kurt and just look at some of the questionable calls in game this season. I really do not know how you can defend this mess this season by saying "well we won games in the past few seasons" blah blah blah. They caught lightning in a bottle, played in the weakest division in football history and still only won 9 and 10 games due to poor coaching. A magical run to the Super Bowl hides alot of warts but the trick is that you have to keep hiding them. Without Kurt that will be impossible and will probably cost us our better players like Fitz. As stated I will eat crow if we win the division( which is still the weakest in the NFL)this year or next but I bet you "Whis is God" crowd won't when he leads us back to the armpit of the NFL in quick fashion. Look around it is happening.
 

Rats

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At least it's a well thought out and well reasoned criticism. Much better than the endless and misguided criticism by several serial whiners that has made things almost intolerable here.

Yeah kinda like the serial "Whis" butt kissers society that goes on and on making it intolerable also. Takes two to tango pal.
 
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TJ

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Yeah, well if no OC is brought in and we suck ass again on offense there will be no defense for you guys who have your face clearly planted in Whis' keister. There are less and less of you with every passing game, no pun intended. Watch the games and you will clearly see he is a terrible game manger and his X and O play calling is amateurish with or without a good Qb. Warner was good enough to look at the defense and make a call and change a play. The guys Whis installed are not and his reaction in game leaves alot to be desired. We need a good offensive coordinator and Whis sucks at it. That is a proven fact. Look at the numbers without Kurt and just look at some of the questionable calls in game this season. I really do not know how you can defend this mess this season by saying "well we won games in the past few seasons" blah blah blah. They caught lightning in a bottle, played in the weakest division in football history and still only won 9 and 10 games due to poor coaching. A magical run to the Super Bowl hides alot of warts but the trick is that you have to keep hiding them. Without Kurt that will be impossible and will probably cost us our better players like Fitz. As stated I will eat crow if we win the division( which is still the weakest in the NFL)this year or next but I bet you "Whis is God" crowd won't when he leads us back to the armpit of the NFL in quick fashion. Look around it is happening.

Whis is a Superbowl winning OC. Dont see how he sucks at the position. Go back to my last post and read again. That is a proven fact.

How clear must I make this for you?
 

Rats

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Whis is a Superbowl winning OC. Dont see how he sucks at the position. Go back to my last post and read again. That is a proven fact.

How clear must I make this for you?

Ya see none of that means anything.Hell he was so good they didn't even want him after interviewing him for the Headcoaching job. Jeez he must have been just swell up there in Pittsburgh. Maybe they saw his crap ego there to. We have 2 plus seasons of watching him as the OC/HC of the Cardinals and that is all we need to see. Maybe you should try to defend that. Problem is you can't One year Warner changes all the plays at the line. This year the Qb Whis gave us can't and we see how bad it is when we have to go with Whis' playcalls. We are dead last on offense. Now I hope it is clear for you. They didn't even want him back in Pittsburgh. Why???.... if he was such a great OC.???...could it be the EGO. Yeah nice try there capitan.
 

TJ

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Ya see none of that means anything.Hell he was so good they didn't even want him after interviewing him for the Headcoaching job. Jeez he must have been just swell up there in Pittsburgh. Maybe they saw his crap ego there to

Tomlin was a very sought after coach. This is no indictment on Whis or Grimm watsoever.
We have 2 plus seasons of watching him as the OC/HC of the Cardinals and that is all we need to see. Maybe you should try to defend that. Problem is you can't One year Warner changes all the plays at the line. This year the Qb Whis gave us can't and we see how bad it is when we have to go with Whis' playcalls. We are dead last on offense. Now I hope it is clear for you.

I already told you Anderson sucks enough to single handedly ruin an entire offense. Whis has tried to make midseason adjustments to this position and cant. This is his doing and Im not going to try and defend it.

What you need to do is start realizing that head coaches in the league make mistakes. Go take a look at the careers of other successful coaches. I mean, obviously Whisenhunt has done some good by taking this team to two straight division titles. I mean, obviously he has done well enough to not have a losing season in three years with the Cards. But all you see is that we are 3-7 and it's time to fire Whisenhunt. For the average fan, this is a natural emotional reaction. But if you are capable of looking at the big picture, you'll see that this is a rebuilding year. Simple. I dont know how you've survived this long as a Cards fan given the horrific coaching of those in the past.

They didn't even want him back in Pittsburgh. Why???.... if he was such a great OC.???...could it be the EGO. Yeah nice try there capitan.

Because he wanted to be a HC and not an OC anymore?? :doi:

And I dont understand why it is supposed to be automatic that he gets the Pittsburgh HC job. How is that an indictment on him? Could it be that Tomlin is a great interviewer and great coach? Have you considered that or are you just stuck in neutral with the whole Whisenhunt is trash argument?

And what coach does not have an ego? It's part of the job. Go follow other coaches. Jeff Fischer in Tennessee has all but indicated that VY is no longer going to be part of their future. That's an ego driven decision. Does it make him a bad coach? As a matter of fact, he's the longest tenured coach in the league.
 

ASUCHRIS

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Yeah kinda like the serial "Whis" butt kissers society that goes on and makes it intolerable also. Takes two to tango pal.

Ha, guilty conscience there chief?

The problem with you and the rest of the serial whiners is perspective, and of course you're religious insistence on repeating yourselves endlessly on how Whis is a complete fool and responsible for everything that's wrong in the universe. Has he made mistakes? Of course, but anyone with half a brain realizes that he's been the most successful coach ever for this sad sack franchise, and no matter what the results of this season are, he deserves a mulligan.

Clearly, someone like you cannot appreciate the difference between well thought out criticism and endless bitching, just like the rest of the broken record crew.
 

Rats

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Tomlin was a very sought after coach. This is no indictment on Whis or Grimm watsoever.

Damn, I wish we had gotten him instead.


Because he wanted to be a HC and not an OC anymore?? :doi:


Reading comprehension there bucko. I was saying they didn't want him as there headcoach. Why not?? To here you tell it he won the Super Bowl himself as the Super Bowl winning OC. I will tell you why. He is not innovative he isn't particularly exceptional at anything. That is why. His young Qb couldn't stand his ego and he was glad he was gone. As for Fisher he is a 46 D guru and is a leader of men.He is innovative. We should be so lucky to find a coach like that. VY is a child that wet his pants and needs to grow up. Fisher is 10 times the coach Whis' will ever think of becoming. As stated crow will be served. If Whis gets us a division title without Warner I will eat it. I hope the likes of you man up when we end up at the bottom with this guy. That is all I have to say.
 

Rats

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Ha, guilty conscience there chief?

The problem with you and the rest of the serial whiners is perspective, and of course you're religious insistence on repeating yourselves endlessly on how Whis is a complete fool and responsible for everything that's wrong in the universe. Has he made mistakes? Of course, but anyone with half a brain realizes that he's been the most successful coach ever for this sad sack franchise, and no matter what the results of this season are, he deserves a mulligan.

Clearly, someone like you cannot appreciate the difference between well thought out criticism and endless bitching, just like the rest of the broken record crew.

Keep puckering pal, we know what you will be smooching in the end. There was no one on my bandwagon a few weeks ago your crew said....and now we are a deafening army according to you?? Serial Whinners even???? How is that for perspective. The perspective that most are waking up to the Fraud that is Ken Whisenhunt....it took a HOF QB, 2 HOF worthy WR, a HOF worthy RB, to overcome his coaching just to get a 9-7 record. The magical Super Bowl run was all Warner, Fitz, Boldin and Edge. Whis was a passenger on the bus. As this season proves his decision making is subpar without HOF talent and he can't evaluate well enough to find any. Next year is going to suck also so get ready. But you will give him a mulligan then to. Whatever.
 

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Tomlin was a very sought after coach. This is no indictment on Whis or Grimm watsoever.

Damn, I wish we had gotten him instead.


Because he wanted to be a HC and not an OC anymore?? :doi:


Reading comprehension there bucko. I was saying they didn't want him as there headcoach. Why not?? To here you tell it he won the Super Bowl himself as the Super Bowl winning OC. I will tell you why. He is not innovative he isn't particularly exceptional at anything. That is why. His young Qb couldn't stand his ego and he was glad he was gone. As for Fisher he is a 46 D guru and is a leader of men.He is innovative. We should be so lucky to find a coach like that. VY is a child that wet his pants and needs to grow up. Fisher is 10 times the coach Whis' will ever think of becoming. As stated crow will be served. If Whis gets us a division title without Warner I will eat it. I hope the likes of you man up when we end up at the bottom with this guy. That is all I have to say.

Couldnt you say the same about Leinart that you could about VY? The guy who got caught beer bonging with co eds? The guy who bitched and complained to the media about his situation with the team? Its just convenient for you to say that about VY and not Leinart because of your personal hate for Whisenhunt.

Your argument about ego just holds no water. And as ASUCHRIS said previously, bitching for the sake of bitching just does nothing to help you out. Go root for another team and you'll see similarities to this situation. And when you listen to the same baseless argument you are spewing from someone else, you might reflect on this and realize how ridiculous you are being.
 

Duckjake

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I agree Harry that the Leinart decision should have been made sooner rather than later. If Whis had any doubt in his mind about him moving forward, he should have cut or traded him in previous seasons. Moreover, it would have given us the opportunity to either a) draft a QB in early rounds the past couple of seasons or b) sign a competent free agent early this offseason. Derek Anderson sucks ass. There are no two ways about it. I would rather have JaMarcus Russell. Dead serious. More realistically, I would rather have Leinart back.

As for the pass rush. I put this on Bill Davis and his schemes. Playing corners 10 yards off the LOS, soft zone and safeties constantly underneath, we are a liability for big pass plays amongst other weaknesses. I am a firm believer that a simple change at DC will have a tremendous impact. We have good players on defense, but as it stands, they are a sum or parts and not a whole. Defenses with less talented players are performing at a higher level because the coordinator knows what he's doing. In addition to which, the ineptitude on the offensive side of the ball is cutting into the defense's performance. Constant 3 and out situations puts the defense back on the field in mere minutes; not enough time to catch their breath. By the 4th quarter, they are winded and can't keep up with the opposition's offense. See the Vikings game. Players like Dan Williams, who is not exactly fit as a fiddle, cannot operate at an optimal level.

Is this brought on by Whis? Yes. But before fans begin bringing out pitchforks and torches, we have to remember what the man has done for the franchise. W/o Whis, we are probably still the doormat of the league. He has done far more good than bad and I have faith that over the offseason, we will improve.

I hate to bring this up but we ARE the doormat of the league.

3-7

32nd in points scored.

32nd in points allowed.

32nd in rush attempts

30th in pass TDs

28th in passing yards

30th in rushing yards

28th in rushing yards allowed.

27th in passing yards allowed.
 

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azsouthendzone

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I hate to bring this up but we ARE the doormat of the league.

3-7

32nd in points scored.

32nd in points allowed.

32nd in rush attempts

30th in pass TDs

28th in passing yards

30th in rushing yards

28th in rushing yards allowed.

27th in passing yards allowed.

:cheers:
 

conraddobler

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I hate to bring this up but we ARE the doormat of the league.

3-7

32nd in points scored.

32nd in points allowed.

32nd in rush attempts

30th in pass TDs

28th in passing yards

30th in rushing yards

28th in rushing yards allowed.

27th in passing yards allowed.

Getting to a SB gives you an immunity idol, don't know how long that lasts on a team like this, but I bet we're going to find out.
 

Totally_Red

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I hate to bring this up but we ARE the doormat of the league.

3-7

32nd in points scored.

32nd in points allowed.

32nd in rush attempts

30th in pass TDs

28th in passing yards

30th in rushing yards

28th in rushing yards allowed.

27th in passing yards allowed.

Amazingly the Cardinals are 11th in rushing YPC at 4.3 but 29th in YPG which speaks to the woes of the passing game and defense. Don't have time to look it up, but I'm pretty sure the Cardinals 3rd down efficiency is horrible, which speaks to how lousy the passing game has been this season.

People underestimate how much Kurt Warner meant to this offense and how working together with Q, Fitz, and Steve Breaston over multiple seasons gave the offense continuity. He masked a lot of deficiencies in the O-line and rushing attack IMO. It was like having a coach on the field who could identify defenses, change plays at the line of scrimmage, run the no-huddle offense, anticipate where receivers would be and hit them in stride, yadda, yadda, yadda.

Take away the dynamic offense the Cardinals have had in the past 2-3 years, and their ability to come back from any kind of serious deficit is close to zero. That puts enormous pressure on a defense that is as porous and inconsistent as ever. IMO, the Cardinals do not have anything close to the defense Whis and company had in Pittsburgh, meaning his dream of basing his offense on the running game is a pipedream. One of the primary focuses in the offseason has to be upgrading the QB position and the passing offense. Without that commitment, guys like Fitz and Breaston are going to start counting the days till they can leave IMO.
 

nashman

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It was like having a coach on the field with Warner...SPECIFICALLY it was like having a real OC since essentially thats what Warner did read the defense and called the CORRECT plays to be successful! Its too bad our genius HC/OC cant seem to figure out that you need a OC so you don't have to try and do everything yourself!
 

Duckjake

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How bad is our offense? This fairly well sums it up:

The Seattle Seahawks in their last 4 games other than vs Arizona have given up 33,41,34 and 42 points.

The Cards managed 18, at home. :(
 

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Nice to read you again, Harry. Even if this post is all doom and gloom.

No one here seems to love DA but I think he's Leinart's equal or better. (If ML is our missing savior, why couldn't the team trade him for a beer and handful of peanuts?) We'd lead our division if our D hadn't crumpled in the 4th quarter every time this team had the lead.

You forgot that part, right? Even with no QB and a crap offense -- per the complainers -- we've lost most of our games because of our defense. Our total lack of defense. Even AW, who I love, has had a bad year.

Is Whiz blameless? Hell, no. The bad defense is on him. The lack of an OC is on him. By all accounts, the team is still with him, still playing hard, and that counts for something. So blame him for the stuff he could control but not for the Pro Bowl players that fled the desert. You lose your #1 QB and half your defense, your team is going to struggle.
 
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football karma

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when a team is 3-7 (and an ugly 3-7 at that) after going 10-6 the year before -- it is self evident that it made bad personnel decisions the previous off season. So the idea that there have been some poor personnel decisions made shouldn't be news.

a couple thoughts:

At the strategic level, 2/3 of the league, including the Cardinals, took a pretty conservative financial posture this off season given the looming labor uncertainty. The problem for the Cardinals was that given the retirements and departures, this was an offseason where they needed to be in the 1/3 that was aggressive. However -- its just not in their risk averse nature. They just were not going to give huge signing bonuses to players that they didn't know extremely well ( like Dockett).

As for Leinart: i dont think he would have made any difference. The last two games -- you got the Leinart-equivalent performance out of Derek Anderson and they still lost big because the defense can't stop anybody. The offense still wouldn't have scored enough points and the source of our QB frustration would be a complete lack of big plays.
 
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