The TYPE of Pass First PG we need!

[Yuma]

In my mind, there are two types of pass first point guards. Now I am an old guy, and I frame my two types as Magic Johnson and John Stockton. Both put up spectacular assist numbers. Magic was on a talented Laker team that could manufacture points on a fast breaking Laker Show Time Squad. Stockton was on a less talented grind it out team that had to take advantage of EVERY possesion. If Magic made the highlight reel passes and missed on some of these, it was no big deal because the Lakers were so prolific scoring points. If Stockton threw away the ball Utah would lose.

Looking at all the games we lose, there is a high turn over rate. We can't blame all of those on Rubio. Booker has his share, too. However, last night's game showed a really odd phenomena. When Ty Jerome played, we flowed better and got more shots off. At one point Mainstreet posted: Jerome with 9 points a +19. Rubio with 8 points a -24. Looking at our two guards, I would liken Rubio to a Magic Johnson type of pass first PG, while Ty Jerome is a more basic John Stockton possesion type of PG.

Looking at the Suns best games, anecdotally, when we play with less turn overs, and allow our highly efficient scorers in Booker, Oubre, and Ayton to actually take shots on offense we outscore our opponents. We don't need a dynamic play maker pass first PG, we need a solid low turn over don't lose us the game guy.

I am not saying Ty Jerome should start, BUT if we are going to add a PG this off season, we need a solid ball handler with a low turn over rate. A good three point shot would help, too.

 

[1Sun]

In my mind, there are two types of pass first point guards. Now I am an old guy, and I frame my two types as Magic Johnson and John Stockton. Both put up spectacular assist numbers. Magic was on a talented Laker team that could manufacture points on a fast breaking Laker Show Time Squad. Stockton was on a less talented grind it out team that had to take advantage of EVERY possesion. If Magic made the highlight reel passes and missed on some of these, it was no big deal because the Lakers were so prolific scoring points. If Stockton threw away the ball Utah would lose.

Looking at all the games we lose, there is a high turn over rate. We can't blame all of those on Rubio. Booker has his share, too. However, last night's game showed a really odd phenomena. When Ty Jerome played, we flowed better and got more shots off. At one point Mainstreet posted: Jerome with 9 points a +19. Rubio with 8 points a -24. Looking at our two guards, I would liken Rubio to a Magic Johnson type of pass first PG, while Ty Jerome is a more basic John Stockton possesion type of PG.

Looking at the Suns best games, anecdotally, when we play with less turn overs, and allow our highly efficient scorers in Booker, Oubre, and Ayton to actually take shots on offense we outscore our opponents. We don't need a dynamic play maker pass first PG, we need a solid low turn over don't lose us the game guy.

I am not saying Ty Jerome should start, BUT if we are going to add a PG this off season, we need a solid ball handler with a low turn over rate. A good three point shot would help, too.

As long as he can defend a chair, which Ty Jerome can't...

 

[itlnsunsfan]

I never see flashy, fast break, Magic style passes from Ricky. He is more similar to Stockton in passing style.

 

[GatorAZ]

I never see flashy, fast break, Magic style passes from Ricky. He is more similar to Stockton in passing style.

I remember Stockton being pretty flashy at times. Also with his quickness and no hand-checking he could easily average 20+ ppg w/ good efficiency.

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[itlnsunsfan]

I remember Stockton being pretty flashy at times. Also with his quickness and no hand-checking he could easily average 20+ ppg w/ good efficiency.

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I never see flashy, fast break, Magic style passes from Ricky. He is more similar to Stockton in passing style.

My point was Rubio is closer to Stockton than Magic in passing style.

 

[Yuma]

My point was Rubio is closer to Stockton than Magic in passing style.

I watched almost every game Magic played, and Rubio is way more like Magic than Stockton. Plus the comparison was comparing Rubio's style to that of Ty Jerome, and Jerome is much more a Stockton type PG tham Rubio.Just my humble opinion. Rubio tries to make way more cross court and tight covered lobs, etc. He takes way more risk on his passes. Jerome is more old school, only pass when you see the guy you are passing to without anyone in between. Rubio will pass more trying to use touch, rather than moving his feet to get him to where a pass is safer. That's why our guys had such a hard time adjusting to him at the beginning of the season because they weren't ready for passes from different angles and distances than usual.

 

[Hoop Head]

I get the Magic or Stockton sort of claims but I think you might be better suited comparing them to 2 guys who played a lot closer to now, Nash or Kidd. Jerome is much more of a Jason Kidd, making the smart pass rather than flashy pass while Rubio is more of the flashy passer that Nash was. Maybe I didn't see enough Magic and Stockton, especially Magic, but I don't see much of their games in Rubio or Jerome, the league has changed too much to compare them. That's why I think the Nash or Kidd comparison might work better.

Nash made flashy look basic and was a master at putting the ball right where it needed to be and Rubio is not that good but he thinks he is, and tries to be. I don't think Nash meant to be as flashy as he was, he just had some insane athletes here who could handle anything he threw at them.

Kidd was much flashier early in his career but by the time Kidd was in New Jersey, he started making the right pass more than making the pass that would get him on SportCenter, especially once Kenyon Martin went to Denver.

Jerome is much more deliberate in his movements and passing, like Kidd, and he reminds me of the old Kidd on the Mav's title team and when Kidd helped the Knicks in his final season. Sadly Jerome's athleticism is that of a microfractured 40 year old PG that had played for 20 years but Kidd was still good enough to start at the end and Jerome's shot is much better than Kidd's.

 

[Mainstreet]

The Suns needed John Morant.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

The Suns needed John Morant.

If by “John” you meant “Ja” I agree. If you meant Ja’s brother, then no.

 

[Mainstreet]

If by “John” you meant “Ja” I agree. If you meant Ja’s brother, then no.

I mean "Ja" Morant.

 

[Yuma]

I admit I wanted Coby White. So it's a good thing I wasn't GM. However I did want Jaxson Hayes to play "PF" next to Ayton. I knew Ja was off the board.

 

[Hoop Head]

I admit I wanted Coby White. So it's a good thing I wasn't GM. However I did want Jaxson Hayes to play "PF" next to Ayton. I knew Ja was off the board.

I was in the Coby White camp also. He hasn't been too great in Chicago but Chicago is a mess. He appears to be more of a combo guard than I thought he would be but I think Booker would be fine paired with the right combo guard. I remember reading some scouting reports that sold him as a combo guard and others that said he was a pass first pg. His stats seemed to indicate a little more of the combo guard future for him but I think he could have been either, depending on what he's asked to do.

I've cooled on him a lot though since the draft and seeing some of his play in Chicago. He should be a fine player with time but I think I convinced myself he was the best way to go at #6 rather than being excited a the prospect of being able to draft him.

Have you followed his play in Chicago at all? If so, has your view changed much.

 

[Muggz]

The problem is if a team has a Magic/Stockton type point guard there is no way in hell they would give them up. I say we settle on a D Lo type guard and get the added benefit of a KAT wanting to play here as well. It seems the front office is looking hard at the Pistons guard Luke Kennard.

Pfft get D lo whatever it takes cause if the Timberwolves get him first say bye bye to D Book.

 

[Yuma]

I was in the Coby White camp also. He hasn't been too great in Chicago but Chicago is a mess. He appears to be more of a combo guard than I thought he would be but I think Booker would be fine paired with the right combo guard. I remember reading some scouting reports that sold him as a combo guard and others that said he was a pass first pg. His stats seemed to indicate a little more of the combo guard future for him but I think he could have been either, depending on what he's asked to do.

I've cooled on him a lot though since the draft and seeing some of his play in Chicago. He should be a fine player with time but I think I convinced myself he was the best way to go at #6 rather than being excited a the prospect of being able to draft him.

Have you followed his play in Chicago at all? If so, has your view changed much.

Yeah, what really disappointed me was that I thought he would be the most draft ready with the three point shot highlights I watched of him in college. Plus he came from a good program. I really thought he would be playing more like JA, not dunking, but more drives to the basket. He needs to use his height more on offense both shooting and passing.

 

[TJ]

You’re hard pressed to find many pass-first PGs in the NBA now that most guards in college are combo guards and want to be playmakers in their own right. The only way we’re going to improve in that area is via the draft, and where we’ll be picking, the only viable option is (puts on UofA hat) Nico Mannion.

 

[Phrazbit]

You’re hard pressed to find many pass-first PGs in the NBA now that most guards in college are combo guards and want to be playmakers in their own right. The only way we’re going to improve in that area is via the draft, and where we’ll be picking, the only viable option is (puts on UofA hat) Nico Mannion.

I am rather low on Nico Mannion. I will give him credit for having guts, but as far as skills go... he is several years away.

Kid should stay in school another year, he is going to end up like Stanley Johnson, a dude who could have developed into a great player but came out way too raw and got buried on a bench.

 

[SunnyBaller]

I am rather low on Nico Mannion. I will give him credit for having guts, but as far as skills go... he is several years away.

Kid should stay in school another year, he is going to end up like Stanley Johnson, a dude who could have developed into a great player but came out way too raw and got buried on a bench.

I'm with you on Nico, he has been very unimpressive this year, and there are a few point guards I would put above him

 

[Hoop Head]

Yeah, what really disappointed me was that I thought he would be the most draft ready with the three point shot highlights I watched of him in college. Plus he came from a good program. I really thought he would be playing more like JA, not dunking, but more drives to the basket. He needs to use his height more on offense both shooting and passing.

I think Chicago is just a bad organization for young players. The only guy who has panned out is Zack LaVine and even he's just a chucker. He also had a year or two elsewhere before arriving in Chicago. They've had a number of players with potential who haven't come close to realizing their skills at this level though. They're almost like the Suns of the East. Maybe White will get out of there before they damage him too much.