Discussion in 'Politics and Religion' started by BillsCarnage, Jun 19, 2017.
We have been doing horrible things much longer than 30 years. Whats your point? I still dont see a reason to ally with countries that are doing worse things and I have a distaste for many of our alliances for this specifically. Especially countries with a history of severe human rights violations.
Who is claiming the USA is an angel? You must talk to people who think everyone is bad except the USA or something.
I would argue that without us invading Iraq and removing Saddam Hussein ISIS would not be nearly as aggressive. This coupled with Afghanistan and Libya, well ,spilled milk now but...
What are the "worse things" of which you speak? Remember I'm trying to limit the discussion to the geopolitical/foreign policy space.
Let's start with a single Saudi human rights issue:
You wanting to limit the discussion to being geopolitical is ignoring a massive amount of evil going on.
We play a major role in problems abroad but that role and those problems are a proxy war with other countries. IE: Syria being russia vs the US.
Then using that example, and your distaste for us doing things like removing Saddam, which I was never a huge fan of either. Do you advocate leaving Assad in power?
No question there's massive amounts of evil going on. Your Saudi example is proof of that, yet we're in bed with them.
If we have learned anything from Iraq, yes. I don't like it, but I think another power vacuum in the ME would be much worse.
My point was, I would like to not be in bed with the Saudi's. This it adverse to the desire to want to ally with more countries who do undesirable acts.
Assad actively chemical bombs his own people, just let him keep up at it?
How is it any business of ours? It's abhorrent no question. Is it worth the lives of our soldiers?
How many refugees has this created? How many civilians have been killed?
It's a tough situation no doubt.
As a first world superpower, it becomes your problem unfortunately. How many refugees has him bombing his own people created? Or us meddling? Refugees are a multi pronged issue not to blame on our meddling alone. How many civilians have been killed by who? Assad? Us? again, multi pronged.
I dont have a solution But i do not support just ignoring the problem either.
I don't know how you quantify that. They would still be attacking us no matter what. I am not sure frequency matters much if you are still taking American lives.
The Russians want a pipeline that runs from Iran; through Iraq; THEN SYRIA; to Labanon; to Cyprus and then to Europe.
The U.S. wants a pipeline from Qatar; through Saudi Arabia; then to Jordan; THEN SYRIA; to Turkey and then to Europe.
Syria is the common connection but now the Qatar problem makes it more complicated. I'm not sure how or why Qatar was singled out in this mess, but it's not anything to do with any terrorist connection unless the Saudi's are putting pressure on them for some other unknown reason.
I honestly can't quantify it, any more than I assume you can quantify your assertion. If we weren't defacto taking over their countries, I have a hunch the problem wouldn't be nearly as great as it is now.
Not the same thing. I know that they would still be attacking us. I didn't make a claim about frequency which is why I said I don't know how you could quantify it. I honestly don't think they need much justification to attack us. Our mere existance is reason enough.
Yeah sorta this. Cut out the democracy part.
But there's two main events, to me, that have kept the problems going is modern times, so to say. First was the creation of Iraq and to be honest, I think it should be broken up for the secular groups that fight over it. However, oil has changed the priority.
Second was the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in the 80's. That wasn't even for oil, it was for a trade route. Al-Qaeda and terrorism as we generally know, it formed during this time. ISIS is just another mutation of Al-Qaeda, but significantly more extreme. Al-Qaeda really just wanted the capitalist/soviet pigs out of their land. ISIS wants to force the world into Islam rule by any means possible.
There's that dang Russia-US conflict. The more things change, the more they stay the same
Reagan armed the rebels, which Bin Laden was, to fight the Russians. Who then turned around and formed Al-Qaeda. The rest is history.
The middle east has been a battleground throughout history. Plus the foreign invaders. Plus 30some years of oil and it's just a mess. It's like you fighting with your neighbors since the neighborhood was created and then others from another state coming in, taking sides and also sleeping in your house, eating your food and playing in your pool.
The only end I see is when the oil dries up, then we'll see how much the land is really worth to them, maybe. But, there will probably never be peace in the middle east as long as oil or religion are involved in land disputes.
This doesn't even include Israel.
Makes me think Qatar the new Kuwait; a small, but insanely rich oil country and someone else wants it. It's like the other countries are trying to bankrupt it. Qatar is import dependent on pretty much everything.
Accusing Qatar of supporting the a "terrorist" organization, be it Hamas, the Mulsim Brotherhood or whoever, has been going on for a few years and is quite hypocritical because they all support radicals in some form or fashion.
@BillsCarnage I'm just not sure why we just sold 12 billion in arms to Qatar after the Saudi deal. Very strange.
Separate names with a comma.