The root of our drafting problems

[Jetstream Green]

It's easy to say Keim, and rightfully so, but this goes much deeper than that. I question our past safeties Wilson and Harris if they have involvement in the draft finding talent, because outside of safety they seem not to offer any beneficial advise or Keim is just not listening. Then we have Keim unlike our former safeties has played on the OL but ironically is putrid at identifying OL talent (other than DJ who I actually like, he has shown he cannot even gauge the positions he is most familiar with, while Michael is still blinded by the success of the Arian years which is becoming more apparent it was about Bruce and not Steve). Guys, most team scouting staffs are formed by lifers making those dismal trips in cheap hotel rooms across the nation every year for said team trying to get info from college games and campuses, but it appears to me the foundation of our scouting staff sucks. Regardless of their records, I think our current coaching staff would appreciate the talent the Cowboy or Colt scouting staff provides... maybe our drafts suck because our whole scouting staff needs a overhaul

 

[Card'em]

With our recent draft failings it would appear that a major overhaul in our scouting is definitely needed. If we don't have a good season next year I expect a change in the GM and then possibly changes in our scouting. I would guess it's more than Keim that is at the root of our drafting problem.

 

[slanidrac16]

I think in todays day and age there is so many draft expertise at every teams disposal.
The grades on these players are not drastically different from one scout to the next. It’s no shock to see the top 20 players drafted with the top 20 picks. The order might not be exactly as the grade but pretty close.

Every team makes wrong picks. Many times a team will pass on a player after meeting with him or a red flag pops up. Some teams won’t be swayed by those factor believing in the talent.
Then you have some teams who will draft the 39 th ranked player with the 20 th pick. Either they turn out looking like geniuses or idiots. Let’s not pretend luck doesn’t play a role too.

I believe teams that draft the best are teams that draft the best player at not out of desperation. They don’t draft the 4th best player at a position with the 9 th pick because they need the position.

Then there’s Keim. The guy that tells us just about every pick is a guy they had evaluated much higher. Yet 31 teams passed on that said player several times.

Bottom line is we for whatever reason suck in the draft. Over the last 4 years Keim would have been better off pulling a Costansa.

 

[Buckybird]

Agree Jet, I’ve been saying for at least 3 years know the Cards need to totally redo its scouting department!

 

[speedy]

I heard a theory on the radio yesterday that suggested if keim gets fired, Adrian will be the most likely to be promoted, and said promotion may mean Leftwich becomes the head coach in 2023. For a variety of reasons I find this very plausible. It will be important for the organization to maintain some of their institutional inbreeding…

 

[Jetstream Green]

I heard a theory on the radio yesterday that suggested if keim gets fired, Adrian will be the most likely to be promoted, and said promotion may mean Leftwich becomes the head coach in 2023. For a variety of reasons I find this very plausible. It will be important for the organization to maintain some of their institutional inbreeding…

History then tells me we will profit nothing by making Adrian the GM and Leftwich the coach. What has either one of those guys really accomplished? Adrian has been tutored in a scouting department which cannot draft and Leftwich has won nothing significant without Brady probably being more of the OC on the field than him... inbreeding is never good, ask the Egyptians

 

[BritCard]

I've said it before. Our scouts are garbage and you could do a better job just accumulating online draft analysis and data provided by colleges.

The Rams and Chargers are already doing just that and didn't attend any pro days last year.

They spend less time travelling and on pointless road trips and more time studying film.

Teams are still operating like its the 1980s just because how it was always done when there's more data available digitally than they were ever able to collect in person is silly.

 

[juza76]

I've said it before. Our scouts are garbage and you could do a better job just accumulating online draft analysis and data provided by colleges.

The Rams and Chargers are already doing just that and didn't attend any pro days last year.

They spend less time travelling and on pointless road trips and more time studying film.

Teams are still operating like its the 1980s just because how it was always done when there's more data available digitally than they were ever able to collect in person is silly.

Its a way to keep some friends employed i guess

 

[juza76]

BritCard btw interviews are still very important to know more about the player, and i don't think virtual meeting can give u an accurate prospective

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Well, I have a pretty good insight on what goes on in scouting as many know here my brother in-law was Player personnel director for JAX(I know insert joke here) and a scout for them for over 20 years until Urban canned him to bring in his cronies.

Brit, if you think you can just watch videos online and be a scout, well, that's crazy. The hardest thing to determine is the what's the guy going to do when he gets money. Is he going to be a Wendell Bryant and Vernon Gholston(yes you can throw my guy Dwayne Haskins in that group too) or is he a driven guy to be successful no matter what.

To me, the Cards mistake seems they draft more on the numbers than anything. Granted, you need the athletic ability but the Cards seem to only go by that. Every NFL player is a great athlete. Also, I think Keim cedes too much to what the coach wants. I get it to a point, but coaches are concentrating on their current team all year. The scouts have been evaluating the college guys. I have no way of knowing, but I'm guessing KK wanted guys like Isabella and Moore for his offense and were overdrafted.

It's eerie how accurate my friend has been on some of the Cards picks I've asked him about in the past.
Darryl Washington was the 1st guy I ever asked him about. He said he'll likely be in trouble in a couple years.
Isabella and Reddick. He said he thought those picks were rich, which means he thought they went too early.
DJ Humphries. He like the pick. Said he was a great athlete but very immature.
Budda Baker. Loved the player but was concerned about size.
The guy he loved that turned out terrible was the guard from North Carolina(his name escapes me) but he thought he was as good as it gets coming into the league.
The stories about Rosen were true. He said he was a complete dick.

 

[tnmike]

It's easy to say Keim, and rightfully so, but this goes much deeper than that. I question our past safeties Wilson and Harris if they have involvement in the draft finding talent, because outside of safety they seem not to offer any beneficial advise or Keim is just not listening. Then we have Keim unlike our former safeties has played on the OL but ironically is putrid at identifying OL talent (other than DJ who I actually like, he has shown he cannot even gauge the positions he is most familiar with, while Michael is still blinded by the success of the Arian years which is becoming more apparent it was about Bruce and not Steve). Guys, most team scouting staffs are formed by lifers making those dismal trips in cheap hotel rooms across the nation every year for said team trying to get info from college games and campuses, but it appears to me the foundation of our scouting staff sucks. Regardless of their records, I think our current coaching staff would appreciate the talent the Cowboy or Colt scouting staff provides... maybe our drafts suck because our whole scouting staff needs a overhaul

Fire all the coaches, fire the front office, cut all the players, make the owner sell the team. All of the speculation that leads nowhere. Maybe they should just move the team and get a new set of fans

 

[QuebecCard]

Interesting.

On DRAFT DAY, the Cards invariably get A or B grades for their selections by those who make a living gauging these picks.

For the sake of argument, let's say their talent evaluation is at least as good as posters on this board.

Given this, shouldn't we look to other causes for the lack of production?

 

[QuebecCard]

I've said it before. Our scouts are garbage and you could do a better job just accumulating online draft analysis and data provided by colleges.

The Rams and Chargers are already doing just that and didn't attend any pro days last year.

They spend less time travelling and on pointless road trips and more time studying film.

Teams are still operating like its the 1980s just because how it was always done when there's more data available digitally than they were ever able to collect in person is silly.

You have no idea what combination of tools the Cards scouts use to grade prospects.

Given there is a 3-4 person analytics department, I doubt they are short on video, analysis and grades from various sources.

And face-to-face still has a vital role in getting the measure of the man-child.

 

[speedy]

To me, the Cards mistake seems they draft more on the numbers than anything. Granted, you need the athletic ability but the Cards seem to only go by that. Every NFL player is a great athlete. Also, I think Keim cedes too much to what the coach wants. I get it to a point, but coaches are concentrating on their current team all year. The scouts have been evaluating the college guys. I have no way of knowing, but I'm guessing KK wanted guys like Isabella and Moore for his offense and were overdrafted.

In fairness, Keim has said multiple times they specifically look for who has “a passion for the game.” I do think for the most part this is a big part of the criteria. However, something is (likely) wrong in the scouting department. Makes me wonder if there is an Amos Jones situation or 2 that is allowed to go on in there (like long time buddies of Keims from back when they were all scouts together). Usually when accountability lacks in one part of the organization, it’s prevalent in many other areas as well.

 

[TRW]

It is, more than likely, a collaborative effort. Owner, GM, HC, Scouting etc. But, final say seems to go to MB at times, SK at times and the HC at times. Denny had some success but,it seems to me, other picks that SK deferred to the HC (I.e.-Isabella) backfired.

I have not done a lot of research, as some on this board seemingly do, but I assume that a lot, if not most, franchises operate similarly. The perennial middle of the pack teams and lesser teams just aren’t as adept at it. The owners just aren’t as good at hiring, or are unable to, top notch staff.

To me it just seems that simple.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

The owner should have next to nothing to say in drafting unless there’s a PR issue with the player.

I know that’s not the case but it should be. I doubt Robert Kraft is in Belichick’s ear on who the Pats should draft. I’m guessing most good organizations operate that way.

 

[BritCard]

BritCard btw interviews are still very important to know more about the player, and i don't think virtual meeting can give u an accurate prospective

Yes but you can do that at the combine or on visits.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Yes but you can do that at the combine or on visits.

Combine interviews are limited to number of prospects and time.

 

[Jetstream Green]

Fire all the coaches, fire the front office, cut all the players, make the owner sell the team. All of the speculation that leads nowhere. Maybe they should just move the team and get a new set of fans

No Stalin, that's a little tooooo drastic ya think

 

[Harry]

It's easy to say Keim, and rightfully so, but this goes much deeper than that. I question our past safeties Wilson and Harris if they have involvement in the draft finding talent, because outside of safety they seem not to offer any beneficial advise or Keim is just not listening. Then we have Keim unlike our former safeties has played on the OL but ironically is putrid at identifying OL talent (other than DJ who I actually like, he has shown he cannot even gauge the positions he is most familiar with, while Michael is still blinded by the success of the Arian years which is becoming more apparent it was about Bruce and not Steve). Guys, most team scouting staffs are formed by lifers making those dismal trips in cheap hotel rooms across the nation every year for said team trying to get info from college games and campuses, but it appears to me the foundation of our scouting staff sucks. Regardless of their records, I think our current coaching staff would appreciate the talent the Cowboy or Colt scouting staff provides... maybe our drafts suck because our whole scouting staff needs a overhaul

Start by thinking evaluation and coaching. Evaualion-wise, I think agree with CBus saying you need to be in the field, but I always found the biggest benefit came from building relations with the coaches. The good ones know which picks would be trouble. Even though there are now games on other days than Saturday, it’s still tough to make many live games. If you do, you typically only hit the big schools because they have multiple prospects. The problem is, everyone else sees the same guys. So you have to use film, preferably not the one you see on TV, but the coaches’ tape which can focus on specific areas or full field. The coaches can also tell you when you see issues (like blown assignments) whose fault it was. Plus, they can tell you who was held back by injuries or the play of others. You can’t always tell just from watching. Also even if you go in person, you might see the player’s best or worst game. You need to know their norm.
I mention coaching because I firmly believe it’s been hard to evaluate recent drafts because of coaching. I’ve made no secret our DC is not my favorite. Assuming he’s built a great teaching staff is quite a leap. I do know many othe teams had the recent linebackers about where they were chosen. Isabella was a reach in everyone’s opinion. Reddick was considered a sound choice by many, again coaching messed up that pick.
Overall scouts use everything they can get their hands on. That includes film, all-star games, The Combine, recommendations from coaches or stringers like me and personal observation. In the end as a scout you have to make the call and accept responsibility for it. All the above inputs are just leads not your absolute answers. In the end you hope you see something others missed. You also hope your input guys hit some of those games you couldn’t get to see in person. I followed the MAC, for example.

 

[reebokalone2001]

Well, I have a pretty good insight on what goes on in scouting as many know here my brother in-law was Player personnel director for JAX(I know insert joke here) and a scout for them for over 20 years until Urban canned him to bring in his cronies.

Brit, if you think you can just watch videos online and be a scout, well, that's crazy. The hardest thing to determine is the what's the guy going to do when he gets money. Is he going to be a Wendell Bryant and Vernon Gholston(yes you can throw my guy Dwayne Haskins in that group too) or is he a driven guy to be successful no matter what.

To me, the Cards mistake seems they draft more on the numbers than anything. Granted, you need the athletic ability but the Cards seem to only go by that. Every NFL player is a great athlete. Also, I think Keim cedes too much to what the coach wants. I get it to a point, but coaches are concentrating on their current team all year. The scouts have been evaluating the college guys. I have no way of knowing, but I'm guessing KK wanted guys like Isabella and Moore for his offense and were overdrafted.

It's eerie how accurate my friend has been on some of the Cards picks I've asked him about in the past.
Darryl Washington was the 1st guy I ever asked him about. He said he'll likely be in trouble in a couple years.
Isabella and Reddick. He said he thought those picks were rich, which means he thought they went too early.
DJ Humphries. He like the pick. Said he was a great athlete but very immature.
Budda Baker. Loved the player but was concerned about size.
The guy he loved that turned out terrible was the guard from North Carolina(his name escapes me) but he thought he was as good as it gets coming into the league.
The stories about Rosen were true. He said he was a complete dick.

Is there a way that your brother-in-law will be hired to scout for the Cardinals? He seems to know his stuff.

 

[Jasper]

I don’t think our draft picks were bad.
I think there is an obvious disconnect between drafting a player for stats and physical ability vs scheme positional fit.
Obvious Keim and the coaches are not on the same page. Keim just drafts the best player available while the coaches have to make do playing them out of their natural positions or relegating them to the bench. Unless these guys get on the same page we won’t win anything.

 

[BritCard]

Start by thinking evaluation and coaching. Evaualion-wise, I think agree with CBus saying you need to be in the field, but I always found the biggest benefit came from building relations with the coaches. The good ones know which picks would be trouble. Even though there are now games on other days than Saturday, it’s still tough to make many live games. If you do, you typically only hit the big schools because they have multiple prospects. The problem is, everyone else sees the same guys. So you have to use film, preferably not the one you see on TV, but the coaches’ tape which can focus on specific areas or full field. The coaches can also tell you when you see issues (like blown assignments) whose fault it was. Plus, they can tell you who was held back by injuries or the play of others. You can’t always tell just from watching. Also even if you go in person, you might see the player’s best or worst game. You need to know their norm.
I mention coaching because I firmly believe it’s been hard to evaluate recent drafts because of coaching. I’ve made no secret our DC is not my favorite. Assuming he’s built a great teaching staff is quite a leap. I do know many othe teams had the recent linebackers about where they were chosen. Isabella was a reach in everyone’s opinion. Reddick was considered a sound choice by many, again coaching messed up that pick.
Overall scouts use everything they can get their hands on. That includes film, all-star games, The Combine, recommendations from coaches or stringers like me and personal observation. In the end as a scout you have to make the call and accept responsibility for it. All the above inputs are just leads not your absolute answers. In the end you hope you see something others missed. You also hope your input guys hit some of those games you couldn’t get to see in person. I followed the MAC, for example.

I do think also that sometimes you can put too much into data gathering and ignore the obvious. That you collect so much data you lose sight of what's important and what isn't.

For example. Cooper Kupp ran a 4.65 40 yard dash at the combine that just took him off most teams boards. The Rams however gave more weight to what he actually did on the field and recalled a game in 2014 where Kupp had a 145 yard 3 TD game against Budda Baker, Kevin King and Marcus Peters.

Teams gather all this data and often all you need to know is the guy performed well against good players.

 

[slanidrac16]

Isn’t there scouting companies out there that provide info and grades for the NFL?
I don’t believe any team has more information than the next. Every team will compile their list of players.
I think Rosters make certain teams lean in one direction or another. Most won’t draft a lineman if their o-line is solid. They might take the 3 rd best edge rusher over the best o-lineman because of need.

 

[Harry]

Isn’t there scouting companies out there that provide info and grades for the NFL?
I don’t believe any team has more information than the next. Every team will compile their list of players.
I think Rosters make certain teams lean in one direction or another. Most won’t draft a lineman if their o-line is solid. They might take the 3 rd best edge rusher over the best o-lineman because of need.

The most famous is BLESTO. Pittsburgh uses them extensively. The Cards belong to The National, originally CEPO. I should have included these though my impression is they are less heavily relied upon by many teams. Several have abandoned their usage. It seems Keim reads PFF quite a bit. One of the primary issues is everybody gets the same info. You get no advantage from them. Depending on the scout who rates someone you may get a bad picture. I heard these services downgraded Moss a few years back. The problem is these are kids you’re drafting and some mature late. I need to see a real threat to react that way!