moklerman
Rise from the Ashes III
Stumbled across this YouTube video that I thought some might want to watch.
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The NFL is NOT ready for Kliff Kingsbury's Air Raid, no matter who the quarterback is
- Thread starter moklerman
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Timm Rosenbach
Bye Bye DJ
The NFL was even ready for Patrick Mahomes as the Patriots cut his sack in the AFC Championship. Even with weapons, a great QB can’t will a team to success. You have to have a respectable Defense. And Murray is showing more signs of “Little Man with Little League Father Syndrome” every day. He reminds me of Toby White. We need a Kelly Leak (Bosa or Williams)
Solar7
Go Suns
Even as one of the biggest Bosa supporters here, Bosa's got family stuff going on too. No free pass for him.
BW52
Registered
And the AIR RAID hasn`t been seen in the NFL before.?Tell that to Jerry Glanville and the Falcons from 20 plus years ago or the 49ers with the shotgun in the early 60`s.
What is this?
outcent13
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Good video thanks for sharing .
Cardsfaninlouky
ASFN Lifer
Williams would be my pick, disrupting the middle of the pocket, always double teamed, allowing Jones & Suggs more freedom to the QB.
Solar7
Go Suns
I don't think you're referencing me, so let that be said, haha. There's undoubtedly Air Raid concepts that will join the NFL to an even greater degree right now. The era of guys who put their hands in the dirt might be coming to a close for now, and spread offenses might be what we see.
But the shift isn't fully here yet. I love the boldness of a KK hire. I don't see the other side of it just yet.
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moklerman
Rise from the Ashes III
I admit that I'm still having a hard time letting go of the old conceits. Big, pocket passers will forever be ingrained in me as the way to go at QB but the way the league is set up now, these little guys can actually come in and play and not get hurt. So, my instinct is to pass on Murray but I would have said the same thing about Mayfield. It seems that many of these guys who I thought weren't going to be able to survive in the NFL, mainly due to the speed and complexities, are now making it. What used to require an elite level of talent between the ears is now being compensated by athleticism.
All of the rules in place that protect the QB have redirected the game to more of a college level of play where athleticism, broken plays and improvisation make up for quick decision making, timing and processing. Kordell Stewart and Michael Vick would be gods in today's game. Neither of which I thought were good QB's. Great athletes, but not good QB's.
So, I don't really have any idea if Murray will make it. My first instinct is "no". But my reality doesn't line up with what's been going on in the NFL for a while now. I certainly don't trust my instincts or what I "know" anymore.
All of the rules in place that protect the QB have redirected the game to more of a college level of play where athleticism, broken plays and improvisation make up for quick decision making, timing and processing. Kordell Stewart and Michael Vick would be gods in today's game. Neither of which I thought were good QB's. Great athletes, but not good QB's.
So, I don't really have any idea if Murray will make it. My first instinct is "no". But my reality doesn't line up with what's been going on in the NFL for a while now. I certainly don't trust my instincts or what I "know" anymore.
Solar7
Go Suns
I respect your thoughts... but no, the rules at QB haven't changed, unless you're focused on fantasy scoring. Mahomes isn't thriving on wild runs and improv, he has everything we consider to be fundamental in a QB. Size, prototypical arm-strength, etc. He's really not THAT mobile.
Playoff teams put out pocket players with height and athleticism. The Ravens are the only ones who got there with a guy predicated on his legs. Mobility is important, but none of these guys are tiny. The Texans were the closest thing to deploying a running QB that actually performed, and they got dismantled by the prototypical QB in the first round.
It's not necessarily a statue back there, but the two guys that made it to the big game were tallish guys with good instincts, and pocket presence (not to mention formidable defenses). It's still the same game. There are just some concepts like RPOs that are nouveau right now.
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moklerman
Rise from the Ashes III
I can't agree with that at all. It isn't the same game as it used to be by any stretch of the imagination. The league is more pass happy than it's ever been, the QB's are protected by the rules directly and indirectly and defenses are at a bigger disadvantage than ever before. QB's come into the league now and can succeed from day 1 and is a lot less rare than it used to be.
And it only stands to reason. Teams want these QB's to succeed early and often and have reformed the rule book to make it a possibility. Drew Brees pushing 75% completion on the year and regularly completing more than 70% is just one example of the passing game being different than it was before. Mahommes breaking every TD record as a first year starter is another. How many guys have passed for 7 TD in a game in recent years when that was a record that stood for decades?
BW52
Registered
Thinking the Air raid is something the NFL can`t or won`t scheme and react to is folly.The real test will be what KK and his staff do to react to the league scheming to stop his offense.There isn`t a offense that has been played in football that hasn`t been tried in the NFL at some time or another.And there hasn`t been a offense that hasn`t been countered by some form of defense to stop it.
Solar7
Go Suns
Sorry, you're partially right, but those are still more or less pocket passers succeeding in the game. It is definitely more helpful, but there's a lot playing against the narrative.
1. Mahomes doesn't have three m's.
2. Drew Brees is one of the greatest of all time, and that is not a realistic expectation.
3. Drew Brees was felt to not be good enough to continue with his original team, leading them to invest what was essentially the #1 overall pick to replace him. The Cardinals get no style points watching a guy they drafted win a Super Bowl (and before it's brought up, Brees didn't injure his shoulder before they picked Rivers, it was after).
4. Brees didn't go until the 2nd round.
5. Mahomes almost fell out of the top 10.
Mahomes is a prototypical QB. The only reason he slid was the Air Raid, and unfortunately, our own shiny new coach not being able to make anything of it defensively.
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moklerman
Rise from the Ashes III
I don't see how any of that contradicts the point that the NFL has continued to modify and change it's rules to protect and promote QB's. Those changes have made it more possible for traditionally unqualified college QB's to come in and not only survive but succeed and even excel. The NFL is closer to the Arena League and CFL than what the NFL used to be. Which isn't good or bad, but it is much different than before.
I really can't agree that things are the same as they ever were.
Solar7
Go Suns
Then I don't see how Brees or Mahomes are examples?
They are both pocket passers. We can agree up and down that things favor the QB, I agree, but they still don't favor undersized running QBs.
Cardinal
All Star
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moklerman
Rise from the Ashes III
Because all QB's are more protected, not just undersized ones. I didn't say that only undersized QB's have benefited or that they are the only ones having success. But the rules now in place allow an undersized QB the opportunity to stay on the field where it was very unlikely before.
Brees' and Mahomes' ridiculous numbers are just examples of how the league has reshaped itself into allow QB's to put up video game numbers, not examples of smaller, running QB's succeeding.
You said the game is still the same and I think it's clear that it isn't.
You're doing that height thing and pocket passer thing again.. I'm failing to see the sources or scouts pointing to his inability to become one of these. You throw through lanes...not over lineman. He worked out of the shotgun almost entirely.. We also know KK is going to be doing a lot of this. Where will the problem be? Drew Brees and Payton seem to make it work without a hitch.
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moklerman
Rise from the Ashes III
Sorry, looked for the title of the video instead of noticing 2+2.
RON_IN_OC
https://www.ronevansrealty.com
[emoji817]...NFL rules protect QBs who stay in the pocket, not the runners. A clean pocket is the most important thing in today's NFL. Just ask TB12...
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RON_IN_OC
https://www.ronevansrealty.com
Rules have changed, yes, but they still only protect and benefit pocket passing QBs.
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moklerman
Rise from the Ashes III
Something in the video that I wonder about is the Murray TD throw that was detailed. Where he beats the cover 4 zone by isolating the safety, essentially making that matchup man coverage. Does an NFL safety get back and break up that throw? Pick it? It was a GREAT college throw, no doubt. Just not sure it would be completed at the next level.
I hate trying to figure out big school guys though. They usually don't face much adversity or much of anything that translates to what they'll be facing on Sundays. I've been so wrong about some guys in recent years I've basically given up trying. Guys that I thought wouldn't be able to make the tight-window, anticipatory, timing throws that are required at the next level have been succeeding anyway. Pre snap reads, post snap reads, progressions...much of what I thought was important just doesn't matter like it used to. If at all.
I would be super skeptical of Murray but that probably means he's going to put up 4,000 yards and a ROY.
But I honestly still believe a more modern, pass-centric scheme that KK is going to bring to the Cardinals will be all Rosen needs to become viable and productive. I would take the BPA or trade back for more picks and build around him.
I hate trying to figure out big school guys though. They usually don't face much adversity or much of anything that translates to what they'll be facing on Sundays. I've been so wrong about some guys in recent years I've basically given up trying. Guys that I thought wouldn't be able to make the tight-window, anticipatory, timing throws that are required at the next level have been succeeding anyway. Pre snap reads, post snap reads, progressions...much of what I thought was important just doesn't matter like it used to. If at all.
I would be super skeptical of Murray but that probably means he's going to put up 4,000 yards and a ROY.
But I honestly still believe a more modern, pass-centric scheme that KK is going to bring to the Cardinals will be all Rosen needs to become viable and productive. I would take the BPA or trade back for more picks and build around him.
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moklerman
Rise from the Ashes III
That's not true. A running QB has to be smart(Wilson) but there are rules in place to protect a QB who breaks the pocket. Hell, just the feet first slide rule is huge compared to how it used to be.
RON_IN_OC
https://www.ronevansrealty.com
If he doesn't feet 1st slide, he's not protected. Once they break the pocket they are considered runners, not QBs...also, in the open field, any runner can give himself up and not be hit or tackled...it's not a special QB rule.
In the pocket you can't touch a QB above the shoulders, even a graze...or tackle at the legs, even a clean wrap up...and heaven forbid the QB throws the ball a half step before getting touched by a defender...it will be a penalty.
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