The Marion Appreciation Thread

[Mad Psyentist]

I figure since a lot of people are starting threads just to trade marion, I would start a thread to remind people why i think we should keep him.

Quite frankly, Marion was right for complaining...the guy doesnt get any respect, even from a lot of suns fans. He was arguably the hardest working guy on the team and for the most part, didnt complain about having to guard bigger guys or top scorers all the time.

Reasons to keep him:

1) he's one of our healthiest guys. Even if (big if) some guy you want to trade him for might produce more points or whatever you think this team needs that marion doesnt already provide, consider how often that player is injured compared to marion. Guy hurt his wrist and still plays....you didnt see him whine or sit out the series. He wanted to play.

2) what he provides in terms of stats. Marion does pretty much everything for us except maybe create his own shot. But thats perfect cuz Nash is the one handling the ball most of the time anyways and Amare wants to be the go-to guy on everything anyways. Imagine the ego clash with Amare if we traded for another guy who wants to be the top scorer.

3) He has producted MOST of the season. Guys like Q have more bad games than good games (this is a whole nother thread in itself). Marion produced all season while people cut Q more slack (during the season) for individual performances rather than being consistantly productive (though now thats not the case). Think about it, we give more love to those who give us a great game once in a blue moon rather than a guy who brings his A game all the time.

4) He is one of the few guys that has been a sun since the start. That may not mean anything to most, but i think that should count for something when players have no loyalty to their teams.

5) He will be missed. I think the things he brings to the table could only be replaced by several players rather than just any one person (garnett might come close). I havent seen any REALISTIC trades that honestly improve us as opposed to being just another lateral move or worse.

Im honestly the kind of guy who gets down on players and the suns when they have bad games, but i still try to be realistic about things and remember what players do for this team. Q, however, is a different story....

 

[Chaplin]

I think he has some cause to complain, I just hated the fact that it was made an issue in the middle of the playoffs. For that reason, I wonder if he REALLY was complaining in the first place. Our sports reporters tend to like to make more out of stuff than actually exists.

Personally, I love Marion--and a part of me would like to see how he responds when plays are called for him, and I like him as a 3 rather than a 4, but he's pretty much a freak of nature--he's definitely the Scottie Pippen of our team.

 

[hafey2]

I actually tend to disagree. I tihnk after the playoffs, JJ is much more likely to become "our Pippen" than Shawn.

 

[Chaplin]

I actually tend to disagree. I tihnk after the playoffs, JJ is much more likely to become "our Pippen" than Shawn.

JJ is not "our Pippen" yet. He may be eventually, but the fact of the matter is that Shawn Marion is the best complimentary player in the league--which is a title Pippen held for several years.

 

[devilalum]

JJ is not "our Pippen" yet. He may be eventually, but the fact of the matter is that Shawn Marion is the best complimentary player in the league--which is a title Pippen held for several years.

Exactly.

We have our star in Amare. There is no player the Suns could trade MArion for that would be a better fit.

 

[hafey2]

I think what JJ does on the court is more similar to what Pippen did on the court with the ball handling and defending guys like Parker.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I think he has some cause to complain, I just hated the fact that it was made an issue in the middle of the playoffs. For that reason, I wonder if he REALLY was complaining in the first place. Our sports reporters tend to like to make more out of stuff than actually exists.

Personally, I love Marion--and a part of me would like to see how he responds when plays are called for him, and I like him as a 3 rather than a 4, but he's pretty much a freak of nature--he's definitely the Scottie Pippen of our team.

I won't touch the reporters "making stuff up" part of this post but will merely repsond to the rest. I think the simple fact that NO COACH that has ever had Marion has ever drawn plays up for him speaks to his ability to be more effective as a player that way. Call me crazy, but with all the turnover over Shawn's time here, if he was a player worth drawing plays up for - I'm pretty sure one of our 5 coaches during that time would have done it.

As far as him being our Pippen - well, hemight be a complimentary player, but he is no Pippen to Amare. He's not a lock-down defender, doesn't create offense for others nor can he create his own shot. To say he's the Pippen of this league - to say he's comparable to a guy that was always First Team D and at worst 2nd Team All-NBA IS A BIT MUCH DON'T YOU THINK?

I would think if you're going to call anyone a Pippen-type player - as far as second banana impact, I'd have to say a guy like Ginobli is much more in the mold rather than Marion. Just my .02. Shawn's a great player though and I hope he continues getting better in the playoffs as he showed during the first two rounds before he went Chevy Chase on us.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

JJ is not "our Pippen" yet. He may be eventually, but the fact of the matter is that Shawn Marion is the best complimentary player in the league--which is a title Pippen held for several years.

but pippen emerged from the complimentary role eventually to stand on his own. marion has not and does not show that potential. if pippen were needed to carry the bulls for stretches, he could. marion cannot. jj has shown greater potential already to do so. jj is more likely our pippen. marion may be more of our horace grant. an integral piece that is often overlooked.

 

[elindholm]

This isn't to bash Marion, but the big difference between Marion and Pippen statistically was assists. And the reason that Pippen could get so many assists is that he was a threat to create his own shot.

Marion might be "the Suns' Pippen" in terms of having a generally similar role, but their games aren't at all similar.

 

[JPlay]

I think Marion is very good, but I'm not sure he's a max player. A max player to me is someone who is can get his own shot and dominates in the league. Marion's numbers are very good and he's a 20 and 10 guy, but when he plays against the higher caliber teams in this league, he gets shut down. A lot of his point are on putbacks from his own shot and others. When he plays against a good rebounding and shotblocking team he doesn't get those points. He needs to take that mid range jumper or take it strong to the hole with a dunk. Too many times he flips one up there loosely and it gets blocked. I really think he needs to work on his offensive game.

 

[Mad Psyentist]

I think Marion is very good, but I'm not sure he's a max player. A max player to me is someone who is can get his own shot and dominates in the league. Marion's numbers are very good and he's a 20 and 10 guy, but when he plays against the higher caliber teams in this league, he gets shut down. A lot of his point are on putbacks from his own shot and others. When he plays against a good rebounding and shotblocking team he doesn't get those points. He needs to take that mid range jumper or take it strong to the hole with a dunk. Too many times he flips one up there loosely and it gets blocked. I really think he needs to work on his offensive game.

I agree that Marion isnt a max contract player, but when you think about it almost half the guys out there who make as much as or more than marion dont deserve their contract...

Guys like Mutombo, Webber, A. Houston, Hardaway, Walker, Abdur-Rahim, Big Z, Finley, Van Horn, Rose, Sprewell, B. Grant, Francis, D. Stoudamire, etc...make more than Marion and i dont think any of them dominate enough to deserve their contracts. The list goes on and on. Its nice to not be saddled down anymore with players not even trying/able to earn their keep (Googs and Hardaway). So i think we're doing better than most even if we're overpaying for him a bit.

As for the Pippen comparison for being second banana, heck everyone has already said marion is like the fourth option on this team, and maybe is the fourth best player we have...so maybe we should compare him to ron harper or something and ask ourselves if hes better than him. Its a bit unfair to compare marion to arguably one of the 50 greatest and expect him to live up to those standards.

He has holes in his game but the thing is we dont ask him to carry this team and he doesnt have to. We have 3-4 other guys for that that can step up their game to do so which is more than most teams can say.

 

[devilalum]

Marion is absolutely worth every penny he makes.

If he was a free agent he'd get more than one max offer. I can't think of a team in the league that he wouldn't make better simply because he does the dirty work that every team needs.

You don't have to run a play for him, he can guard half the players on the court, he has the quickest second leap in the NBA, he runs the floor as well as anybody, and he ranks third in rebounds.

HE HAD MORE REBOUNDS THIS YEAR THAN BEN WALLACE AND HE'S ONLY 6'7" 228LBS.

I bet there are at least 100 players in this league that deserve their pay check less than Shawn Marion.

 

[Big D]

Ok, I'm biased here, Marion is my favorite player, but I just can't see why people are getting so down on him after he had such a spectacular year. Yes, he did have a bad series against SA offensively. I felt he still was getting his shots that he made all season, those crazy lookin little floaters and some 3pt looks but they were just not falling for him. Having to guard guys like Duncan and Ginobli with little to no help at all until were are down 0-3 had a lot to do with that IMO. He still finished the year 3rd in the league in rpg, 2nd in the playoffs (1st if you have a min. of 10 games), 3rd team All NBA, ect. He had a great year that along with the rest of the team ended in disapointment. He doesn't have the prettiest game in the world but he does what no one else on that team does and does it amognst the leagues best.

 

[PhxGametime]

How about Shawn Marion being the offensive version of Dennis Rodman, when it comes rebounds and small size at PF; Scottie Pippen when it comes to running court, steals, and blocks; Jordan when it comes to 3PTers (he was never a great 3PT shooter?), Ron Harper when it comes to defense; Luc Longley when it comes to passing


Wasn't that once, the starting Line-up?

 

[Cheesebeef]

Ok, I'm biased here, Marion is my favorite player, but I just can't see why people are getting so down on him after he had such a spectacular year.

this is such a common thing on this board - going from one extreme to another and not seeing that there is a middle ground. Simply because some people don't think Shawn Marion is the greatest thing sicne lsiced bread and disagree with those opinions that believe he is - DOESN'T MEAN PEOPLE ARE DOWN ON HIM.

No one who has responded with other thoughts on his game are saying Marion sucks, or this or that - but I guess here, if you don't love the player you automatically HATE the player - that way you're opinion can just be written off.

 

[Big D]

There's a big wide world outside this message board. I'm talking about people I know and also media types that have bashed Marion bro.

 

[Cheesebeef]

There's a big wide world outside this message board. I'm talking about people I know and also media types that have bashed Marion bro.

gotcha. Still - in the biggest series of the year - you - someone who has actually been griping in the post-season - when you put 12 points a game under your average and don't reach your average in rebounds per game in 3 of 5 games - you should expect to get criticized. Shawn was his own worst enemy at the end of the season - I'll give Bowen credit - he's a great defender, but to go from avergaing 20 points a game to 8 - well, you gotta look at the player as well.

 

[Forrestham]

I get tired of all the MArion bashers on thsi board. Marion is an outstanding player. The memories are very short. Because he did not play well against Asn antonio does not mean he is a bad player. We would not have made it to the Western Conference semi finals without the Matrix. The only way he should be traded is if he was part fo a deal for Garnett. That is not likely to happen. LEts not forget he was 4th in th eleague in rebounding and let many fast breaks. He is unappreciated just like JJ was. He was playing with a bad wrist and was not 100 percent against the Spurs

 

[Cheesebeef]

I get tired of all the MArion bashers on thsi board. Marion is an outstanding player. The memories are very short. Because he did not play well against Asn antonio does not mean he is a bad player.

again - as is usually the case - there apparently is no middle ground between Marion homers and "bashers" - good lord man - who the hell said Marion was "BAD PLAYER"?

I also love how the "bad wrist" excuse is trotted out after he goes AWOL but was no where to be found when MARION himself was complaining about not getting the ball enough or when he actually played well against the Mavs. That little tidbit always cracks me up.

 

[HooverDam]

I think that Marion (and the other Suns starters) were probably a little tired in the SA series. I think the Suns are the best conditioned team in the NBA, but even with that, its tough to play 90 games at their pace. If we deepen the bench so that our starting guys dont have to play 35+minutes against the New Orleans and Charlottes of the world, it will help us in the long wrong.

If I was the Suns front office, I wouldnt think of trading Marion unless something ridiculous came along.

 

[George O'Brien]

Marion didn't score much because the Spurs were totally focused on giving up fast break points and the Spurs are an outstanding rebounding team (7th in rebound differential) and sixth in fewest rebounds by opponents. Phoenix was the fifth worst in rebounding differential, which is why so many of us are obsessed with finding more rebounding help without giving up what Marion offers.

Marion actually rebounded pretty well in conference finals, grabbing 10.8 rpg while Amare was above his season average with 9.8 rpg. But no one else rebounded well and the Suns were out rebounded by six boards a game. Hunter in particular was terrible on the boards.

 

[Joe Mama]

Marion didn't score much because the Spurs were totally focused on giving up fast break points and the Spurs are an outstanding rebounding team (7th in rebound differential) and sixth in fewest rebounds by opponents. Phoenix was the fifth worst in rebounding differential, which is why so many of us are obsessed with finding more rebounding help without giving up what Marion offers.

Marion actually rebounded pretty well in conference finals, grabbing 10.8 rpg while Amare was above his season average with 9.8 rpg. But no one else rebounded well and the Suns were out rebounded by six boards a game. Hunter in particular was terrible on the boards.

More importantly the San Antonio Spurs defensive strategy was to play straight up man-to-man defense. Unlike every other team they did not rush over to double-team Amare Stoudemire and/or the pick and roll. They did not give the Phoenix Suns many open three-point shots. Shawn Marion is not a strong offensive player despite his near 20 points per game during the regular season, and he was being defended by the best perimeter defender in the league.

Joe Mama

 

[George O'Brien]

More importantly the San Antonio Spurs defensive strategy was to play straight up man-to-man defense. Unlike every other team they did not rush over to double-team Amare Stoudemire and/or the pick and roll. They did not give the Phoenix Suns many open three-point shots. Shawn Marion is not a strong offensive player despite his near 20 points per game during the regular season, and he was being defended by the best perimeter defender in the league.

Joe Mama

Exactly. It is notable that Marion did better in game 4 once JJ became a major threat, but still never got the open looks the Suns are used to getting.

In other threads I've suggested the Suns need to incorporate more double screens into the offense for when playing teams that use the approach the Spurs used. The Sonics had more success against the Spurs than the Suns inspite of injuries and not being as good as the Suns. It was partly because their offense is better suited to attacking the Spurs. (Also, they are more physical on defense than the Suns, but that's another topic).

 

[JPlay]

Marion is great except against the Spurs. He struggles against better competition.

 

[baltimorer]

The fact that Marion wanted plays ran for him is a laughable concept, but let's remember, there was a coach who wanted to run plays for Marion, and that was Scott Skiles. During the summer of 2002, Skiles and the rest of the Suns management were highly encouraging Marion to develop his ball-handling more to the point where he could play the 2-spot effectively. With his quickness and all-around athleticism, the idea was that if he could improve his handle, he could not only be a great second option, but he might've been able to become this team's first option and become a super-star in the league.

Fast forward 4 summers. Since the '00-'01 season (his 2nd in the NBA) Has his ball-handling gotten better? No. Has he gotten better at creating his own shot? No. Has he improved in overall shooting percentage? No, it went down from 48% to 47.6%. Has he improved in assists? No, his apg has gone down from 2.0 to 1.9. Has he improved in turnovers-per-game? Just barely, his TO's per game has gone down from 1.63 to 1.54. Everybody said he needed to get to the line more; has his free throw attempts gone up? No, during his rookie season he attempted 289; this year he shot 275.

So, while a lot of these numbers are very good, if they didn't warrant a bigger part in the offense 5 years ago, I'm not sure why Marion all of the sudden expects to be a go-to-guy. I can't see what's changed. In his sophomore season, his role was pretty much to see if Jason Kidd could create a shot for him, and if not, he was supposed to go get rebounds. Now, Marion hasn't improved in any of the areas everybody told him that he had to improve on to become a star player in this league; now, instead of Kidd, this team has Steve Nash, and instead of Cliff Robinson, this team has Amare Stoudemire.

So to use one of Marion's phrases - Do the math.