The Drums Continue to Beat

[Zeno]

You also can't compare him to just any other mobile QB..because he hasn't played yet. So it's not wrong.. its your opinion. If he gets a season or two in and is getting crushed..then ok. How you take a hit is just as important. I would say with today's pass rushers.. it is way more dangerous to be an immobile QB in the pocket. Jmo

In the NFL QBs have protection in the pocket, the minute they scramble they become in all essence a RB, this leads mobile QBs to more hits--this isn't opinion it is simple fact. Who do you think got hit more last season Tom Brady or Russell Wilson? Drew Brees or Deshaun Watson? Numbers don't lie.

 

[cardsfanmd]

Dude. It's the overwhelming evidence. How are these guys not comps? Two highly athletic Heisman winners that went in the first round, who could "do it all" when it came to running and throwing. Two other guys who had insane running ability, that went in the top five, and never won anything of note, but were considered "game changers." Both in contention for the Heisman.

Like, how do you define comp? They need to be sub six-foot? Because the Wilson comp isn't working for me. He played for multiple years, in multiple organizations, had obvious leadership abilities, and the only real question was his height. That's essentially one factor, compared to the 4-5 Murray has going against him. And he went in the third round, not first overall.

If this kid was 6'0, I'd still have a lot of questions, and that's the problem.

You lost me at saying Tebow could do it all. Every talent evaluator alive massacred his throwing ability pre-draft.

 

[dscher]

In the NFL QBs have protection in the pocket, the minute they scramble they become in all essence a RB, this leads mobile QBs to more hits--this isn't opinion it is simple fact. Who do you think got hit more last season Tom Brady or Russell Wilson? Drew Brees or Deshaun Watson? Numbers don't lie.

So what? Russell Wilson and Deshaun Watson are doing just fine. My point is still valid. You take hits differently outside of the pocket as you scramble. Immobile QBs are sitting ducks that take 300 lb lineman at full speed to their blindside.. Stats are great..but sometimes stats dont tell the whole story.. I'm sure the amount of punishing hits Russell Wilson took were in the same line as a Brady or Brees. Those are the hits that matter. Imo

 

[Zeno]

So what? Russell Wilson and Deshaun Watson are doing just fine. My point is still valid. You take hits differently outside of the pocket as you scramble. Immobile QBs are sitting ducks that take 300 lb lineman at full speed to their blindside.. Stats are great..but sometimes stats dont tell the whole story.. I'm sure the amount of punishing hits Russell Wilson took were in the same line as a Brady or Brees. Those are the hits that matter. Imo

Ok, ignore facts...I am done arguing with you.

 

[cardsfanmd]

Call me when Josh has success against nfl-caliber teams.. lol

FTFY

 

[dscher]

Ok, ignore facts...I am done arguing with you.

No ones arguing man. It's all about opinions and having a debate. But it's all good..no sweat.

 

[Zeno]

No ones arguing man. It's all about opinions and having a debate. But it's all good..no sweat.

Statistics are not opinion, they are measurable fact... but like I said I am done arguing

 

[dscher]

Statistics are not opinion, they are measurable fact... but like I said I am done arguing

Done arguing but still trying to make your point. A little contradictory. But to each, his own. Take care.

 

[cardsfanmd]

Statistics are not opinion, they are measurable fact... but like I said I am done arguing

Fair enough. Using your logic then, it’s a measurable fact that Murray will be both successful and healthy in the NFL. Good call.

 

[dscher]

Fair enough. Using your logic then, it’s a measurable fact that Murray will be both successful and healthy in the NFL. Good call.

No. College stats don't count..

 

[Zeno]

Fair enough. Using your logic then, it’s a measurable fact that Murray will be both successful and healthy in the NFL. Good call.

Based on college stats? That doesn't work.

Look at NFL numbers--and show me where succesful "mobile" QBs are hit less than successful pocket passers.

 

[gimpy]

I think you can make numbers say anything you want them to say.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Could Murray be the next Wilson? Maybe. But in a 100 years of nfl football there has been only one Wilson up to now. What are the odds?

30 years ago Russell Wilson wouldn't have gotten a chance.

The game has changed. Stereotypes have changed. Listen to the old guys like Gil Brandt talk and to a man, most will say that they no longer believe that being a 6'5, 230 lbs QB is important any more. The height issue is just not as important as many of you are making it out. It shows a fundamental lack of understanding on how the QB position is played. The vast majority of throws aren't made by seeing "over the line", throws are made seeing around linemen. Kurt Warner said as much, and he said that even though he was listed as 6'2", he is really 6'1 and some change.

The real concerns about Murray is that he has never shown how he handles adversity, his lack of playing experience, and how will his game translate to the pro game. You can question his desire to play football, but honestly, that's bush league because you don't know that unless you know Murray, which none of us do.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Based on college stats? That doesn't work.

Look at NFL numbers--and show me where succesful "mobile" QBs are hit less than successful pocket passers.

Is there a stat for that? It would take a ton of research to prove it either way.

I know that batted passes, the shorter QBs typically DON'T lead the league, which is likely a function of their understanding that they have to find clearer passing lanes.

 

[dscher]

Is there a stat for that? It would take a ton of research to prove it either way.

I know that batted passes, the shorter QBs typically DON'T lead the league, which is likely a function of their understanding that they have to find clearer passing lanes.

Doug Flutie actually mentioned this the other day in his Eisen appearance. It was a good listen.

 

[slanidrac16]

30 years ago Russell Wilson wouldn't have gotten a chance.

The game has changed. Stereotypes have changed. Listen to the old guys like Gil Brandt talk and to a man, most will say that they no longer believe that being a 6'5, 230 lbs QB is important any more. The height issue is just not as important as many of you are making it out. It shows a fundamental lack of understanding on how the QB position is played. The vast majority of throws aren't made by seeing "over the line", throws are made seeing around linemen. Kurt Warner said as much, and he said that even though he was listed as 6'2", he is really 6'1 and some change.

The real concerns about Murray is that he has never shown how he handles adversity, his lack of playing experience, and how will his game translate to the pro game. You can question his desire to play football, but honestly, that's bush league because you don't know that unless you know Murray, which none of us do.

Your whole last paragraph says it all. I just have a hard time anointing him the next Russell Wilson for those reasons. He may remind some of Wilson but that’s about it. You mention Gil Brandt. Him and many others do not rank Murray as the best player in the draft. Those same experts are also saying what a great talent Rosen is. So let’s say Murray is an 8.5 in this offense but Rosen is a 7.75. Is that difference worth taking Murray as opposed to improving another position with a blue chip player?

 

[cardsfanmd]

Based on college stats? That doesn't work.

Look at NFL numbers--and show me where succesful "mobile" QBs are hit less than successful pocket passers.

Just as soon as you show me the stats supporting your notion that size and pocket confinement ensure a lack of injuries. Manning, Luck, Rivers, Rodgers, Flacco, Watson, Dalton, Romo, Palmer, Bradford and so many more lost seasons from non-contact injuries. It’s football. Injuries can happen to anyone almost anytime.

 

[MadCardDisease]

30 years ago Russell Wilson wouldn't have gotten a chance.

The game has changed. Stereotypes have changed. Listen to the old guys like Gil Brandt talk and to a man, most will say that they no longer believe that being a 6'5, 230 lbs QB is important any more. The height issue is just not as important as many of you are making it out. It shows a fundamental lack of understanding on how the QB position is played. The vast majority of throws aren't made by seeing "over the line", throws are made seeing around linemen. Kurt Warner said as much, and he said that even though he was listed as 6'2", he is really 6'1 and some change.

The real concerns about Murray is that he has never shown how he handles adversity, his lack of playing experience, and how will his game translate to the pro game. You can question his desire to play football, but honestly, that's bush league because you don't know that unless you know Murray, which none of us do.

Doug Flutie was drafted in 1985. That was 34 years ago.

 

[Zeno]

Just as soon as you show me the stats supporting your notion that size and pocket confinement ensure a lack of injuries. Manning, Luck, Rivers, Rodgers, Flacco, Dalton, Romo, Palmer, Bradford and so many more lost seasons from non-contact injuries. It’s football. Injuries can happen to anyone almost anytime.

It's not just about injuries its about the accumulation of hits and the fact is no QB the size of Kyler Murray--who played at close to 185 lbs in college, has ever been a regular starter in the NFL. If body weight/size doesn't matter when it comes to taking a pounding then boxing should do away with weight classes.

People who love Murray seem to think he will be able to avoid all those sacks that Rosen took because he is "quick" and that he will make a bad OL look better. Fact of the matter is probably the 2 best QBs ever in Brady and Manning made pedestrian OL's better, not by being mobile but being smart pocket passers. Compare the Denver OL with Tebow to the one with Manning--they made ONE change of the 5 on the OL and they surrendered HALF as many sacks with Manning. Do you think it is a coincidence the Patriots take average OL and turn them in to Pro Bowlers? That's not all coaching or the players just all of a sudden getting better it has a lot to do with Brady and the offense they run.

 

[dscher]

It's not just about injuries its about the accumulation of hits and the fact is no QB the size of Kyler Murray--who played at close to 185 lbs in college, has ever been a regular starter in the NFL. If body weight/size doesn't matter when it comes to taking a pounding then boxing should do away with weight classes.

People who love Murray seem to think he will be able to avoid all those sacks that Rosen took because he is "quick" and that he will make a bad OL look better. Fact of the matter is probably the 2 best QBs ever in Brady and Manning made pedestrian OL's better, not by being mobile but being smart pocket passers. Compare the Denver OL with Tebow to the one with Manning--they made ONE change of the 5 on the OL and they surrendered HALF as many sacks with Manning. Do you think it is a coincidence the Patriots take average OL and turn them in to Pro Bowlers? That's not all coaching or the players just all of a sudden getting better it has a lot to do with Brady and the offense they run.

But I thought you said stats matter and that they are absolute. He asked for stats backing up your claim.

I know you said you were done arguing with me. But hey, one last hurrah lol

 

[Zeno]

But I thought you said stats matter and that they are absolute. He asked for stats backing up your claim.

I know you said you were done arguing with me. But hey, one last hurrah lol

 

[dscher]

 

[BigRedRage]

Unless you can show me how many licks it takes to get to the center of a tootsie pop, I think you don't know what you are talking about.

 

[Solar7]

You lost me at saying Tebow could do it all. Every talent evaluator alive massacred his throwing ability pre-draft.

Then you didn’t read the post I wrote... I never mentioned Tebow.

“Michael Vick. Johnny Manziel. Vince Young. Marcus Mariota.”


Two other Heisman winners in that conversation with dynamic talent in college ball, neither who proved a thing. Manziel and Mariota.

Edit: Sorry, posting on phone and didn’t realize part of a previous reply had been saved.

 

[dscher]

Unless you can show me how many licks it takes to get to the center of a tootsie pop, I think you don't know what you are talking about.

2,461. I've counted.. but my stats might not match yours.