The Bottom Line: Offensive Line

Mitch

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Under the Bruce Arians/Harold Goodwin/Steve Keim five year regime there has been one irreparable constant: an under-performig offensive line that always seems to be in total flux.

It did not bode well from the get-go when Bruce Arians in his first year described oft-maligned LT Levi Brown as an "elite tackle."

Then came the unorthodox selection of a top ten draft pick on G Jonathan Cooper of North Carolina, whom both Arians and Keim likened to a "young Randall McDaniel."

Brown flamed out early and was traded unceremoniously to the Steelers not even a month into the 2013 season. The Cardinals were intent turning over the LT duties to Bradley Sowell.

Meanwhile, Jonathan Cooper suffered a season ending broken leg in his first pre-season and in subsequent years had difficulty staying in the lineup because he supposedly could not fathom and understand the game plans from week to week.

In 2013, Keim also drafted G Earl Watford in Round 4. The coaches raved about Watford's impressive athleticism, but he came from a small school and was having difficulty picking up the playbook. By his 4th year Watford was turned to as the Swiss Army knife utility guard/tackle/center. While he filled in for injured starters several times, Watford never really found his niche as a starter in Arizona and left via free agency this past spring.

Steve Keim went to work the following year and added UFA LT Jared Veldheer to supplant the underwhelming Sowell at LT. Veldheer was an immediate upgrade. However, in subsequent years, Veldheer's play has steadily declined. More on this to come.

In 2015, Keim landed UFA All-Pro LG Mike Iupati to form an imposing left side of the line tandem. Iupati was certainly going to help improve the Cardinals' running game, but as a pass happy offense, some questioned the signing because Iupati's strength is not in pass protection.

Also in 2015, Keim surprised everyone by trading down in the 1st round and taking T D.J. Humphries of Florida. Humphries had come out early in the draft and was a young and raw 20 year old.

The thinking at the time was that Humphries was going to take over for RT Bobby Massie, the Cardinals' 2012 4th round draft pick. The attractive thing about Humphries is he looked like a natural LT in the NFL, but with Veldheer at LT and the soon-to-be UFA Massie (coming off a DUI on Super Bowl Sunday and a upcoming 2 game suspension) the plan was to move Humphries to RT.

The curious thing was --- even though Massie was going to miss two games, Humphries was so slow to pick up the Cardinals' offense and to display a professional approach to his work, that not only did Earl Watford start at RT instead, Humphries was publicly branded "Knee Deep" by his head coach, a sobriquet given to him by his OC Harold Goodwin.

Going into 2016, the plan seemed to be to start Humphries, Knee Deep and all, at RT. Although curiously when UFA Bobby Massie was being wooed by the Bears, Keim made a last ditch contract offer to Massie, which Massie turned down. One can only conclude that Keim's confidence in Humphries was pretty shaky to make that desperate move.

At center, the Cardinals stayed with long-time stalwart Lyle Sendlein in 2013 and 2014. In 2015, Keim brought in A.Q. Shipley to start at center, only to find that three weeks into the pre-season, Keim re-signed Sendlein and a week later Sendlein was the starter.

In 2016, Keim's biggest UFA addition was RG Evan Mathis who was pondering retirement coming off a Super Bowl win with the Broncos and off-season rehabs of groin and ankle injuries. Early into the season, Mathis suffered a foot injury in the first game, a turf toe injury in the second game, he sat out the third game, was rushed back for the 4th game when he suffered a season-ending ankle injury.

In 2016, Keim also drafted C Evan Boehm in Round 4 and G/T Cole Toner in Round 6. Boehm was to be A.Q. Shipley's successor at center...and would have been this year had not Boehm been forced to play RG for the last two games of the season last year and due to Keim's curious decision to re-sign Shipley as the starting center this off-season. As for Cole Toner, he was beat out by Daniel Munyer for the backup center/guard job and after being waived Toner is now on the Bengals' practice squad.

Shipley is a lunch pail, fire hydrant of a player, who gives max effort. The problem is he is very limited in what he can offer physically. Centers today typically need to be able to get quickly to the second level and to pull on trap plays and screens. While Shipley is a strong and smart anchor in the middle, his lack of maneuverability limits what the offense can do.

Meanwhile, Boehm has started the first two games at guard with mixed results. He graded the highest of all the Cardinals' offensive linemen in week 1 versus the Lions, a game in which the Cardinals offensive line was dominated at the point of attack by the Lions. In game 2 versus the Colts, Boehm was not as productive and made a number of mistakes.

Now, back to Jared Veldheer. He missed the entire second half of the season last year due to a partially torn triceps. While he was out, the Cardinals flipped Humphries (who struggled at RT) over to LT and liked what they saw. However, Humphries missed the last three games after suffering a concussion in the loss at Miami.

This year the coaches decided to flip flop Humphries and Veldheer. Veldheer was not thrilled with the decision and even took a day off from training camp to ponder retirement. Humphries played all of 8 snaps in the week 1 game in Detroit before get carted off with a knee injury. Word from BA is that Humphries will be out a couple of more weeks. Meanwhile Veldheer has struggled big-time at RT. He is giving up sacks and QB pressures at at alarming rate and he has never been much of a force in the running game.

This year's Swiss Army knife T/G utility man is John Wetzel who played surprisingly well at LT the last two games of the year last season during wins at Seattle and Los Angeles. Ironically, behind a totally patchwork offensive line without Veldheer, Iupati, Mathis and Humphries, QB Carson Palmer had his two best and cleanest games of the season.

Wetzel was pressed into action early in the Lions game and struggled in pass pro versus DEs Ziggy Ansuh and Anthony Zettel. BA vowed to stick with Wetzel at LT and felt that with a week's preparation Wetzel could do a better job. Interestingly, Wetzel earned the highest grade on the offensive line versus the Colts. he did not surrender any sacks and, in fact, in 40 pass pro snaps, he did not give up one QB pressure. Plus, the Cardinals got their best runs rushing to Wetzel's and to newcomer LG Alex Boone's side.

Alex Boone, who was released by the Vikings for refusing to take a pay cut, filled in fairly well for LG Mike Iupati, who came into camp 10 pounds lighter and in good shape, but who suffered a torn triceps a couple of weeks ago and was rushed back for week 1 where he further aggravated the injury. Rushing Iupati back for week 1 was reminiscent of the Cardinals rushing Evan Mathis back too soon early last season. BA said that Iupati is now 'trending positive" toward a return, either this week or next.

Steve Keim, knowing that this could be Iupati's and Veldheer's last year with the team, drafted All-American G Dorian Johnson (Pittsburgh) in the 4th round and 2nd Team All-SEC T Will Holden (Vanderbilt) in the 5th round. The problem is Dorian Johnson was mysteriously buried deep on the depth chart during training camp and was waived, and then re-signed to the practice squad. Again -- rookie draft picks struggling to assimilate into BA's and HG's offense and good graces. The pattern here is too glaring to ignore.

Holden was kept over Ulrich John (one of Keim's better signings off practice squads --- John played reasonably well in his spot starts last year) and Holden this week was used as a blocking TE on 17 snaps.

What is so mind boggling about the Cardinals' seemingly perpetual offensive line woes is how diligent Steve Keim has been in trying to add talent and depth to the unit and yet it's more of the same old same old struggles and constant flux. One would think that this unit would have been fired up out of their minds to block for David Johnson, a potential record setter at RB, and yet in game one versus the Lions, they were dominated by the Lions' front seven and looked totally uninspired.

But then again...upon closer review...the question seems obvious: how friendly is BA's offense for offensive linemen? BA expects all 5 of his linemen to win their one-on-one battles. BA doesn't care who is playing. If you are his LT, no matter who you are, don't ask for any help, because you aren't going to get any. As a result, when any of the linemen get beat and there is no immediate help, they get exposed. It's like walking a tight rope without a safety net.

How much of the o-line woes can be attributed to Harold Goodwin? Goodwin is an f-bomber deluxe who is highly demanding and highly intolerant of mistakes. While one would expect a coach to preach high standards, is his coaching style successful? It's been 5 years with him in charge and here's the question: has the continuity and the play of the offensive line improved?

After two games, Carson Palmer has gotten hit an alarming 16 times and has been sacked 5 times. His completion percentage is 54.8% which is the 2nd lowest in the league. Palmer is tied for the most interceptions with 4. The running game is averaging a paltry 64 yards per game.

My own hunches are --- D.J. Humphries cannot be counted on. He strikes me as being out of shape and not all that committed to his craft, which is why he is so injury prone. Mike Iupati needs help in pass pro, which means keeping a RB in the backfield. Evan Boehm should be moved over to center, where he belongs. Alex Boone should take over at RG. He's a good pass protector which is much needed at this point. Jared Veldeer has one more game to show if he is worthy of staying at RT, but he'd better be given help this week because DE DeMarcus Lawrence of the Cowboys is a beast who could literally knock Palmer out. if Veldheer struggles again, try Ulrich John or Will Holden at RT. Keep John Wetzel at LT. If and when Humphries comes back, switch Wetzel to RT. At this point he's a much better run blocker than Veldheer and he's a better pass protector, as evidence by 0 QB pressures in 40 snaps versus Jabaal Sheard and John Simon last week.

The bottom line is --- it's time to put up or shut up for Bruce Arians and Harold Goodwin.
 

oaken1

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too much to read.


what stands out to me is the line starts off every year badly. But towards the end of the season they start looking better.
we ended last season with a patchwork line and they looked pretty good, which led to hope for this season. but now they are poor again.
the only consistency is inconsistency.... but we have plenty of talent
 

MadBird

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Not too much to read. Excellent analysis. Thanks for your insight. The Cardinals do not appear to be alone in the struggle to build a cohesive offensive line. This seems to be the common weak link when an NFL team is below average. The Seahawks don't seem to have figured it out the last several years either. Is college-to-pro transition that much harder now? What do the Cardinals need to do different to pick the right offensive line talent? They grade-out high, but don't pan out - why?
 

MadBird

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Is some of it that the QB position has changed for most of football (e.g.: toward the highly mobile QB) and some teams (e.g.: the Cardinals) want a traditional "pocket passer", but lineman coming out of college have geared their skills more toward the mobile QB.... more fluid, able to run away from pressure, make plays with their feet, and on the move...?? is BA's offense "old"?
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Not too much to read. Excellent analysis. Thanks for your insight. The Cardinals do not appear to be alone in the struggle to build a cohesive offensive line. This seems to be the common weak link when an NFL team is below average. The Seahawks don't seem to have figured it out the last several years either. Is college-to-pro transition that much harder now? What do the Cardinals need to do different to pick the right offensive line talent? They grade-out high, but don't pan out - why?

There's a Grand Canyon of a difference between the efforts with the cards and hawks though. The cards have been proactively doing everything they can to build an elite oline (high priced free agents and high draft picks). The hawks have completely ignored their oline. Those stories aren't analogous.
 

Finito

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Under the Bruce Arians/Harold Goodwin/Steve Keim five year regime there has been one irreparable constant: an under-performig offensive line that always seems to be in total flux.

It did not bode well from the get-go when Bruce Arians in his first year described oft-maligned LT Levi Brown as an "elite tackle."

Then came the unorthodox selection of a top ten draft pick on G Jonathan Cooper of North Carolina, whom both Arians and Keim likened to a "young Randall McDaniel."

Brown flamed out early and was traded unceremoniously to the Steelers not even a month into the 2013 season. The Cardinals were intent turning over the LT duties to Bradley Sowell.

Meanwhile, Jonathan Cooper suffered a season ending broken leg in his first pre-season and in subsequent years had difficulty staying in the lineup because he supposedly could not fathom and understand the game plans from week to week.

In 2013, Keim also drafted G Earl Watford in Round 4. The coaches raved about Watford's impressive athleticism, but he came from a small school and was having difficulty picking up the playbook. By his 4th year Watford was turned to as the Swiss Army knife utility guard/tackle/center. While he filled in for injured starters several times, Watford never really found his niche as a starter in Arizona and left via free agency this past spring.

Steve Keim went to work the following year and added UFA LT Jared Veldheer to supplant the underwhelming Sowell at LT. Veldheer was an immediate upgrade. However, in subsequent years, Veldheer's play has steadily declined. More on this to come.

In 2015, Keim landed UFA All-Pro LG Mike Iupati to form an imposing left side of the line tandem. Iupati was certainly going to help improve the Cardinals' running game, but as a pass happy offense, some questioned the signing because Iupati's strength is not in pass protection.

Also in 2015, Keim surprised everyone by trading down in the 1st round and taking T D.J. Humphries of Florida. Humphries had come out early in the draft and was a young and raw 20 year old.

The thinking at the time was that Humphries was going to take over for RT Bobby Massie, the Cardinals' 2012 4th round draft pick. The attractive thing about Humphries is he looked like a natural LT in the NFL, but with Veldheer at LT and the soon-to-be UFA Massie (coming off a DUI on Super Bowl Sunday and a upcoming 2 game suspension) the plan was to move Humphries to RT.

The curious thing was --- even though Massie was going to miss two games, Humphries was so slow to pick up the Cardinals' offense and to display a professional approach to his work, that not only did Earl Watford start at RT instead, Humphries was publicly branded "Knee Deep" by his head coach, a sobriquet given to him by his OC Harold Goodwin.

Going into 2016, the plan seemed to be to start Humphries, Knee Deep and all, at RT. Although curiously when UFA Bobby Massie was being wooed by the Bears, Keim made a last ditch contract offer to Massie, which Massie turned down. One can only conclude that Keim's confidence in Humphries was pretty shaky to make that desperate move.

At center, the Cardinals stayed with long-time stalwart Lyle Sendlein in 2013 and 2014. In 2015, Keim brought in A.Q. Shipley to start at center, only to find that three weeks into the pre-season, Keim re-signed Sendlein and a week later Sendlein was the starter.

In 2016, Keim's biggest UFA addition was RG Evan Mathis who was pondering retirement coming off a Super Bowl win with the Broncos and off-season rehabs of groin and ankle injuries. Early into the season, Mathis suffered a foot injury in the first game, a turf toe injury in the second game, he sat out the third game, was rushed back for the 4th game when he suffered a season-ending ankle injury.

In 2016, Keim also drafted C Evan Boehm in Round 4 and G/T Cole Toner in Round 6. Boehm was to be A.Q. Shipley's successor at center...and would have been this year had not Boehm been forced to play RG for the last two games of the season last year and due to Keim's curious decision to re-sign Shipley as the starting center this off-season. As for Cole Toner, he was beat out by Daniel Munyer for the backup center/guard job and after being waived Toner is now on the Bengals' practice squad.

Shipley is a lunch pail, fire hydrant of a player, who gives max effort. The problem is he is very limited in what he can offer physically. Centers today typically need to be able to get quickly to the second level and to pull on trap plays and screens. While Shipley is a strong and smart anchor in the middle, his lack of maneuverability limits what the offense can do.

Meanwhile, Boehm has started the first two games at guard with mixed results. He graded the highest of all the Cardinals' offensive linemen in week 1 versus the Lions, a game in which the Cardinals offensive line was dominated at the point of attack by the Lions. In game 2 versus the Colts, Boehm was not as productive and made a number of mistakes.

Now, back to Jared Veldheer. He missed the entire second half of the season last year due to a partially torn triceps. While he was out, the Cardinals flipped Humphries (who struggled at RT) over to LT and liked what they saw. However, Humphries missed the last three games after suffering a concussion in the loss at Miami.

This year the coaches decided to flip flop Humphries and Veldheer. Veldheer was not thrilled with the decision and even took a day off from training camp to ponder retirement. Humphries played all of 8 snaps in the week 1 game in Detroit before get carted off with a knee injury. Word from BA is that Humphries will be out a couple of more weeks. Meanwhile Veldheer has struggled big-time at RT. He is giving up sacks and QB pressures at at alarming rate and he has never been much of a force in the running game.

This year's Swiss Army knife T/G utility man is John Wetzel who played surprisingly well at LT the last two games of the year last season during wins at Seattle and Los Angeles. Ironically, behind a totally patchwork offensive line without Veldheer, Iupati, Mathis and Humphries, QB Carson Palmer had his two best and cleanest games of the season.

Wetzel was pressed into action early in the Lions game and struggled in pass pro versus DEs Ziggy Ansuh and Anthony Zettel. BA vowed to stick with Wetzel at LT and felt that with a week's preparation Wetzel could do a better job. Interestingly, Wetzel earned the highest grade on the offensive line versus the Colts. he did not surrender any sacks and, in fact, in 40 pass pro snaps, he did not give up one QB pressure. Plus, the Cardinals got their best runs rushing to Wetzel's and to newcomer LG Alex Boone's side.

Alex Boone, who was released by the Vikings for refusing to take a pay cut, filled in fairly well for LG Mike Iupati, who came into camp 10 pounds lighter and in good shape, but who suffered a torn triceps a couple of weeks ago and was rushed back for week 1 where he further aggravated the injury. Rushing Iupati back for week 1 was reminiscent of the Cardinals rushing Evan Mathis back too soon early last season. BA said that Iupati is now 'trending positive" toward a return, either this week or next.

Steve Keim, knowing that this could be Iupati's and Veldheer's last year with the team, drafted All-American G Dorian Johnson (Pittsburgh) in the 4th round and 2nd Team All-SEC T Will Holden (Vanderbilt) in the 5th round. The problem is Dorian Johnson was mysteriously buried deep on the depth chart during training camp and was waived, and then re-signed to the practice squad. Again -- rookie draft picks struggling to assimilate into BA's and HG's offense and good graces. The pattern here is too glaring to ignore.

Holden was kept over Ulrich John (one of Keim's better signings off practice squads --- John played reasonably well in his spot starts last year) and Holden this week was used as a blocking TE on 17 snaps.

What is so mind boggling about the Cardinals' seemingly perpetual offensive line woes is how diligent Steve Keim has been in trying to add talent and depth to the unit and yet it's more of the same old same old struggles and constant flux. One would think that this unit would have been fired up out of their minds to block for David Johnson, a potential record setter at RB, and yet in game one versus the Lions, they were dominated by the Lions' front seven and looked totally uninspired.

But then again...upon closer review...the question seems obvious: how friendly is BA's offense for offensive linemen? BA expects all 5 of his linemen to win their one-on-one battles. BA doesn't care who is playing. If you are his LT, no matter who you are, don't ask for any help, because you aren't going to get any. As a result, when any of the linemen get beat and there is no immediate help, they get exposed. It's like walking a tight rope without a safety net.

How much of the o-line woes can be attributed to Harold Goodwin? Goodwin is an f-bomber deluxe who is highly demanding and highly intolerant of mistakes. While one would expect a coach to preach high standards, is his coaching style successful? It's been 5 years with him in charge and here's the question: has the continuity and the play of the offensive line improved?

After two games, Carson Palmer has gotten hit an alarming 16 times and has been sacked 5 times. His completion percentage is 54.8% which is the 2nd lowest in the league. Palmer is tied for the most interceptions with 4. The running game is averaging a paltry 64 yards per game.

My own hunches are --- D.J. Humphries cannot be counted on. He strikes me as being out of shape and not all that committed to his craft, which is why he is so injury prone. Mike Iupati needs help in pass pro, which means keeping a RB in the backfield. Evan Boehm should be moved over to center, where he belongs. Alex Boone should take over at RG. He's a good pass protector which is much needed at this point. Jared Veldeer has one more game to show if he is worthy of staying at RT, but he'd better be given help this week because DE DeMarcus Lawrence of the Cowboys is a beast who could literally knock Palmer out. if Veldheer struggles again, try Ulrich John or Will Holden at RT. Keep John Wetzel at LT. If and when Humphries comes back, switch Wetzel to RT. At this point he's a much better run blocker than Veldheer and he's a better pass protector, as evidence by 0 QB pressures in 40 snaps versus Jabaal Sheard and John Simon last week.

The bottom line is --- it's time to put up or shut up for Bruce Arians and Harold Goodwin.

Holy crap you have a lot of time on your hands
 

Buckybird

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2 things I think are causing the NFL to to be offensive line deficiant. 1) IMO this relates back to the spread offenses in HS & college! If you look around the NFL QBs are getting hit & sacked at an alarming rate. These guys coming out of college aren't in 3 pt stances, they're in a crouched pass pro stance even in the run game. 2) Dlineman are getting so athletic that most Olineman struggle with these freaks!

These lineman aren't ready for the pro game & just like their QB counterparts have to be taught the NFL game because colleges don't train them for the NFL game.
 

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Not too much to read. Excellent analysis. Thanks for your insight. The Cardinals do not appear to be alone in the struggle to build a cohesive offensive line. This seems to be the common weak link when an NFL team is below average. The Seahawks don't seem to have figured it out the last several years either. Is college-to-pro transition that much harder now? What do the Cardinals need to do different to pick the right offensive line talent? They grade-out high, but don't pan out - why?


Yes it is much harder now!! College offenses are read options which isn't used in the NFL. A lineman just has to block...if he gets beat ..it is up the the QB to read which OL is opening the hole...which in theory is a good concept if you have a good RB and running QB ...it negates great blocking schemes because the RT can lose 4 battles in a row...the QB just has to read which hole is open ....so ues I'm my opinion OL are struggling if you don't get 1 from a pro style offense ...there are always exceptions to the rule.
 

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2 things I think are causing the NFL to to be offensive line deficiant. 1) IMO this relates back to the spread offenses in HS & college! If you look around the NFL QBs are getting hit & sacked at an alarming rate. These guys coming out of college aren't in 3 pt stances, they're in a crouched pass pro stance even in the run game. 2) Dlineman are getting so athletic that most Olineman struggle with these freaks!

These lineman aren't ready for the pro game & just like their QB counterparts have to be taught the NFL game because colleges don't train them for the NFL game.
Haha I wrote that too. Good post. Lol. Was typing when you posted
 

Jay Cardinal

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I have been perpetually unimpressed with the offensive line in AZ for years. It seems like the best games they play are average and it takes a death-defying performance from our QB's and WR's in the passing game to succeed. I agree it is the system as it doesn't seem to get better with new players. I will give them the fact the run blocking has improved, though I think a lot of the success has come from having DJ breaking ankles out of the backfield.

The hardest part for me to understand is why they put our struggling OT's one-on-one against All Pro DE's. It feels to me like Arians is out to prove some sort of point, instead of focusing on the best way to win the game. I can understand mixing it up and not double-teaming or chip blocking the edge every play, but I don't see any help on the edge. I would struggle playing in a system where it feels like the coach is watching a different game that I was playing in.
 

b8rtm8nn

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They did really well last year adapting the play designs for our makeshift line. Getting personnel for our line that is stable seems to have been the bigger issue, but not for lack of trying.

And on another note, playing in the NFL is harder than it looks :)
 

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Not too much to read. Excellent analysis. Thanks for your insight. The Cardinals do not appear to be alone in the struggle to build a cohesive offensive line. This seems to be the common weak link when an NFL team is below average. The Seahawks don't seem to have figured it out the last several years either. Is college-to-pro transition that much harder now? What do the Cardinals need to do different to pick the right offensive line talent? They grade-out high, but don't pan out - why?
Could be what their evaluation criteria is. Maybe their criteria is faulty.
 

JeffGollin

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Suggestion:

Pick out 3 or 4 teams with really good OL's and compare their OL coaches, teaching approaches, line techniques and line- personnel with that of the Cards.

What do they do that we don't do?

Imitate those successful OL teams (or hire away their coaches). Should work.
 

Harry

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The tough thing about grading O-linemen is the huge gap between college & pros. In college you usually face a D-line with 1 or 2 quality players. You can always double team or shift to get help. On pro style offenses, backs are often kept in. So defencies are often hidden. Usually protect the outside and look for inside help. Good college linemen often fail in the NFL.

As to this Cardinal group, Veldheer is very old to move to the other side. Years of muscle memory work against him. Reactions and weight shifts can be confusing. This is not an easy move. He may never get it. This is not to say it was the wrong move. They need to know about Humphries.

Boehm is also moving to a position he hasn't played since high school to my knowledge unless you count some of last season. The mistake he made last week was part of the learning process. He'll make more. Still he's show he might make it. Perhaps being a better guard than center. Mitch is dead on about Shipley. I think Iupati is toast. I like Boone for this year, but his liabilities will show when DJ returns. He doesn't open holes. He can't pull consistently. Wetzel is a decent backup I'd he doesn't play too much. Holden looks stiff.

Linemen in college, whether offensive or defensive, often get by on athleticism for the reason mentioned above. In the NFL they need technique and smarts. It's not just grunt work anymore. I do question if the Cards have employed coaching that teaches technique and if they focus enough on drafting coachable players. Quantity is not a substitute for quality.

Mitch has done a good job of laying out the history. The Cards need to take a hard look at their model and be brutally honest with themselves. Some teams, like Dallas, seem to solve this issue continuously and contend steadily as a result. Fix this and the team goes a long way to being a true NFL power.
 

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Mitch, this is some of your best work. While I don't agree with your 'take' as to why Humphries has been injury prone, the overall analysis is outstanding. Thanks.
 
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Mitch

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Mitch, this is some of your best work. While I don't agree with your 'take' as to why Humphries has been injury prone, the overall analysis is outstanding. Thanks.

I have actually been second guessing myself some about Humphries, Garth. Thank you for challenging my hunch on this. I think I spoke more out of frustration that with the exception of 8 snaps in the Detroit game he's now missed 5 games in a row, plus he was out for half of pre-season and during pre-season at one point Harold Goodwin was then calling him Double Knee Deep. But, it's not his fault that he got rolled up from behind. It's actually pretty amazing that he only suffered an MCL sprain. His knee got bent pretty badly.

I will reserve judgment on him --- we have too much invested in him not to do everything we can to get him healthy, focused and productive.
 

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I have actually been second guessing myself some about Humphries, Garth. Thank you for challenging my hunch on this. I think I spoke more out of frustration that with the exception of 8 snaps in the Detroit game he's now missed 5 games in a row, plus he was out for half of pre-season and during pre-season at one point Harold Goodwin was then calling him Double Knee Deep. But, it's not his fault that he got rolled up from behind. It's actually pretty amazing that he only suffered an MCL sprain. His knee got bent pretty badly.

I will reserve judgment on him --- we have too much invested in him not to do everything we can to get him healthy, focused and productive.

we do need some more info on Hump... if it were my call I would have left him at RT a little longer... JV is being paid as a LT... Hump is gonna be up for a new contract... moving Hump to LT means he is now going to want to be paid as an LT... had we left him on the right we could have renewed him as a RT then switched him to LT when JV retired. might sound nit picky but it could make a $5mil a year difference in our salary cap. not to mention our line would likely be better right now than it is.
 

gmabel830

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Dan Patrick brings this up all the time, it's incredibly hard to find good O-linemen from the college ranks, because we are pretty much at the point where these guys have played out of spread offenses pretty much their entire lives (at least high school/college lives) before coming into the pros. Outside of Dallas, how many teams immediately jump out at you as having dominant offensive lines? That's not to say we couldn't and shouldn't have done better, but it's a lot easier said than done these days. Here is the list of top 10 O-line draft picks since Jake Long went #1 in 2008. This crew isn't exactly leading the next generation of great offensive line talent -- and these guys were thought to be the ones with the most potential.

Jason Smith (2009, 2nd)
Andre Smith (2009, 6th)
Eugene Monroe (2009, 8th)
Trent Williams (2010, 4th)
Russell Okung (2010, 6th)
Tyron Smith (2011, 9th)
Matt Kalil (2012, 4th)
Eric Fisher (2013, 1st)
Luke Joeckel (2013, 2nd)
Lane Johnson (2013, 4th)
Jonathan Cooper (2013, 7th)
Chance Warmack (2013, 10th)
Greg Robinson (2014, 2nd)
Jake Matthews (2014, 6th)
Brandon Scherff (2015, 5th)
Ereck Flowers (2015, 9th)
Ronnie Stanley (2016, 6th)
Jack Conklin (2016, 8th)
 

Chopper0080

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Humphries was dinged up in college and has shown that he gets dinged up in the pros. I'm not sure that Keim isn't too blame for not seeing the writing on the wall. Sometimes you have to gamble to find talent, but this one might bite him badly.

In regards to our issues...I don't know. A lot of it has to be on Keim. There is a reason that no one has been able to develop Jonathan Cooper. It isn't just us.

Earl Watford was released by the Jaguars, and is not employed.

Veldheer was a necessary signing and we got good years out of him.

Iupati was a questionable fit, and has struggled.

Cole Toner is on a practice squad for the Bengals, not setting the world on fire.

Dorian Johnson was not signed after he was waived. That says about all anyone needs to know.

Evan Boehm, AQ Shipley and John Wetzel are what they are. Boehm probably can still develop, and Wetzel may be able to be a very average starter at RT.

For me, it seems like the coaching staff is getting what they can out of the guys they are given, and those who they can't get anything out of, no one else is either. To me, that highlights picking the wrong players vs failing to develop them.
 
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Mitch

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we do need some more info on Hump... if it were my call I would have left him at RT a little longer... JV is being paid as a LT... Hump is gonna be up for a new contract... moving Hump to LT means he is now going to want to be paid as an LT... had we left him on the right we could have renewed him as a RT then switched him to LT when JV retired. might sound nit picky but it could make a $5mil a year difference in our salary cap. not to mention our line would likely be better right now than it is.

I think moving Humphries to LT was the right thing to do. Jared Veldheer has been steadily regressing and settling the LT position is of paramount importance...that is if they can get Humphries on the field.

Harry makes a good point about JV being too accustomed to LT muscle memory to be effective at RT. But, JV struggled at LT the past two years. He's lost his edge and his confidence. Of course, playing on an island in BA's offense can do that to pretty much any tackle.
 
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Mitch

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Humphries was dinged up in college and has shown that he gets dinged up in the pros. I'm not sure that Keim isn't too blame for not seeing the writing on the wall. Sometimes you have to gamble to find talent, but this one might bite him badly.

In regards to our issues...I don't know. A lot of it has to be on Keim. There is a reason that no one has been able to develop Jonathan Cooper. It isn't just us.

Earl Watford was released by the Jaguars, and is not employed.

Veldheer was a necessary signing and we got good years out of him.

Iupati was a questionable fit, and has struggled.

Cole Toner is on a practice squad for the Bengals, not setting the world on fire.

Dorian Johnson was not signed after he was waived. That says about all anyone needs to know.

Evan Boehm, AQ Shipley and John Wetzel are what they are. Boehm probably can still develop, and Wetzel may be able to be a very average starter at RT.

For me, it seems like the coaching staff is getting what they can out of the guys they are given, and those who they can't get anything out of, no one else is either. To me, that highlights picking the wrong players vs failing to develop them.

Everything you said is pretty much true...but I tend to put the onus more on the coaches and the system than on Keim. I appreciate that Keim keeps trying and keeps adding depth. At some point the coaching has to stick, and it hasn't, as it's one thing another in too many cases; injuries, slow learning of the playbook, unrealistic expectations (like not giving help against All-Pro pass rushers), mental mistakes, blown assignments, sloppy technique, position changes, etc.
 

cardpa

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Everything you said is pretty much true...but I tend to put the onus more on the coaches and the system than on Keim. I appreciate that Keim keeps trying and keeps adding depth. At some point the coaching has to stick, and it hasn't, as it's one thing another in too many cases; injuries, slow learning of the playbook, unrealistic expectations (like not giving help against All-Pro pass rushers), mental mistakes, blown assignments, sloppy technique, position changes, etc.

I believe the coaching and the system have a lot to do with how well a Oline performs. We all have seen Olines that have worked very well as a unit even though none of the individuals were all pros. Tine together and each player on the line knowing what to do given almost any situation and executing is paramount to a Oline's success. to me it's no different than the back four on a soccer team. If you can get the individuals to play together as a unit and understand and communicate, then you don't need outstanding athletes at all four positions but you do need four players who want to be a unit and be successful and take pride in what they are doing.
 

BigRedRage

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I'll say this:

Even though it hasnt been a resounding success, I am happy that Keim has put so much effort and attention into the OL compared to our previous management.
 

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Thanks Mitch for the write up. First I agree that Boehm should be moved to center and stay there. I am also pleased with how Wetzel is doing. He is a fine third Tackle for us. Watching Alex Boone I understand why he was released. I would let him go as well.

I would not give up on Veldheer just yet. Changing sides for a tackle that has gotten use to one side isn't easy and it may take him half the year to do it. Hopefully Iupati can stay healthy when he comes back. I also would like to see Shipley as the backup center. That's where he would be on a very good line.

I can't believe we kept Will Holden over anyone. He has no talent at all. Finally say what you will but Steve Keim has done more to try and build a line than anyone in the last 25 years. Yes all the players are not working out but its definitely not for lack of effort.
 

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I think our playbook isn't o-line friendly. Like you said, you are most of the time one on one and I rarely see a play that acounts for the opponent D. By that I mean, if I know the opponent has a dominant DT in Run situations, I help the center, we don't do that. Shipley had to stop Ngata himself or fail. He failed most of the time, that is like letting C. Campell roam free like the Texans let him. If you double him, that is a totally different story (not 4 sacks 0 in fact).

The Cards, will never have a Top O-line, with CP behind them and Arians on the sideline. If you want a top O-line you need a mobile QB behind this O-line with a Coach that works to the strenghts of his players (Harbaugh, Gruden for coaches that aren't in the nfl now) Ried, Bellicheck and there are others too that are in the league. You can without a great O-line, but the QB has to be fast or at least a bit of mobile, CP doesn't help his o-line at all too.
 

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