The 2024 NBA playoffs thread

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Is that the same reality where KD makes the Suns a legit title contender, extending and opening the championship window from the 2021 Finals team?
That was the hope. It was wrong. I don’t know how many times those of us that were pro trade have to overtly state that, but if you need us to keep doing so most of us seem able to admit it. And keep admitting it. And keep admitting it. In almost every thread.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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But its not. Your entire argument is that we had to add KD to improve our chances since the window was closing while KD's acquisition slammed that window shut. You were wrong leading up to the KD trade, wrong after it, and now you want to look back and say it still needed done. Why? See how that doesn't add up and isn't taking full accountability for how you were wrong? We're staying on the same subject, talking about the same team. You said trading for KD made us better, which was wrong, and you'll admit it was wrong to a certain degree but still say it was worth a shot and a shake up was needed when it wasn't, not that degree. You haven't backed off the reason why we had to trade for KD, just admitting it hasn't worked out. Maybe your view of the Suns pre-KD was just as warped as you envisioned the KD Suns.
No, you’re mistating my position back then and now. My position has always been at that juncture the window for a championship has closed for that iteration of the suns. I’m fairly confident that almost everyone in the board can admit that now. My position was something had to be done if the goal was championship or bust in the immediate future. If a mini rebuild was the goal, that would’ve meant something different. It would’ve meant staying the course likely with Payne as pg, likely becoming a 6 seed, and hoping that bridges/Ayton/cam were going to surprise or that draft picks popped. THat would’ve likely been a bad course of action as none of those three were going to surprise - bridges got better, but never ascended to where we would need him to be a contender again - and jones’ draft philosophy and record was putrid. So to remain a contender they needed to do something big (no small move was going to be effective). KD was a big move. He was available. And he wanted to come to the suns. It was a big swing and it ended up being a miss. Nowhere did I say we had to do KD. My position was if we wanted to stay a contender we had to do something, the KD thing presented itself, and I was on board. Even at the time I thought we gave up too much, but I was still for the swing. It ended up being a miss. But none of that changes the fact that the team that existed prior to kd deal had its window close with Paul’s descent and Ayton’s failure to ascend.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Also, what is not factored into the equation by some is alternative trades the Suns could have made if they hadn't locked onto Durant.

It's not like the Durant trade or nothing.
100%

But that wasn’t the argument pre-Durant trade. It was that roster as-was verses trading for Durant. That was going to result in a noncontender either way. The difference being some of us (incorrectly) believed kd could keep the championship window open. It didn’t. And it deeply impacts our future.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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If Ayton was a legit #1 or #2 we never trade Bridges and Cam, imho. We wouldn't have needed another scorer with Booker. The KD trade doesn't get made.
100%

And everyone in this board would love one and other. Because we would likely have a dynasty.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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dallas straight shut ant down - he tried screening - rolling - cutting - dallas was all over it plus kyrie ran ant ragged on defense

im thinking minnesota wins game 2 but losing that first one gonna be tough
Any needs a better robin than KAT
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Aside from the cost and everything else, Durant just doesn't function in a team... at least not this old curmudgeon version that we've got. He wants to go out there and play one on one. He doesn't move without the ball so you can't run cuts and back door stuff because you have this guy who just stands there doing nothing. When he does get the ball he plays slow as molasses, will pass up open shots to dribble in for contested fadeaways and he has got to be the sloppiest "ball handling" superstar I've ever seen.

He has stretches out there where he plays so disinterested that it's jarring. The Christmas game is the most obvious example, he did it in game 2 against Minnesota as well. A totally winnable game and he just checked out for most of the 2nd half, didn't even try to get involved until we were down like 15 with 3 minutes left... and then it was with his patented "use 20 seconds to set up a 10 foot, doubled team, fade".

He still gets his points but the amount he is impacting the game seems dubious. He certainly isn't making any of his teammates lives easier.

He's a strange dude... claims he doesn't worry about his legacy all the time to the media, often looks like he hates playing basketball entirely during the season, then spends a ton of his time off the court arguing with podcasters and random internet trolls about how great he is and how he is a pure "hooper". I suppose the "hooper" in him is what makes him not play team basketball... where is the glory in that?

Or maybe he hated Frank Vogel... fingers crossed I guess.
Your last sentence is the one that keeps surfacing for me. He wasn’t all the things you listed in his brief time with us the prior season. So I wonder how much of it was a terribly designed offense that seemed to rely upon in the iso.

Remember back in the day kd was raving about a movement offense even before he got to golden state. Maybe this old kd is the curmudgeon you describe. Or maybe Vogel/young’s offense made him seem that way. (None of this excuses or explains his gawd awful turnovers)
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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I thought this was well known already a couple weeks after we turned them down. Well I heard about it anyway.

I mean that would have been a helpful deal, but it wouldn't have got us past the Wolves.

I'm still pissed about Haliburton, every time I watch him I just get angrier and angrier.
Ditto
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Ppl are forgetting how much better Porzingis makes Boston. He takes them from really good to the best team in the league. Horford does his best but he’s pretty much a 9/7 guy at this point of his career.
True. And with porzingas you get BOTH porzingas and horford. But don’t sell the old guy short. He does every single little thing you need to win. Guy is amazing. His teams have made the playoffs in something like 16 of 17 seasons.
 

Hoop Head

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No, you’re mistating my position back then and now. My position has always been at that juncture the window for a championship has closed for that iteration of the suns. I’m fairly confident that almost everyone in the board can admit that now. My position was something had to be done if the goal was championship or bust in the immediate future. If a mini rebuild was the goal, that would’ve meant something different. It would’ve meant staying the course likely with Payne as pg, likely becoming a 6 seed, and hoping that bridges/Ayton/cam were going to surprise or that draft picks popped. THat would’ve likely been a bad course of action as none of those three were going to surprise - bridges got better, but never ascended to where we would need him to be a contender again - and jones’ draft philosophy and record was putrid. So to remain a contender they needed to do something big (no small move was going to be effective). KD was a big move. He was available. And he wanted to come to the suns. It was a big swing and it ended up being a miss. Nowhere did I say we had to do KD. My position was if we wanted to stay a contender we had to do something, the KD thing presented itself, and I was on board. Even at the time I thought we gave up too much, but I was still for the swing. It ended up being a miss. But none of that changes the fact that the team that existed prior to kd deal had its window close with Paul’s descent and Ayton’s failure to ascend.

You're whole view on what makes a contender is warped. We apparently weren't one and couldn't be unless we did a rebuild or make the KD trade, which you believed would make us a contender. It didn't, you say you admit that now but you're too hard headed to admit maybe your views and ideas of what makes a contender is off. IIRC you said the Warriors were done before they won another title, didn't predict that Denver would ascend to championship heights, that Minnesota would make the run they have, or even the Suns would make the finals a few years back. Im not saying you have to predict those things for your view to matter but often your views of those things were the opposite of what happened. I know you bashed the Gobert trade in Minnesota, doubt the Suns plenty, and also thought the Warriors were too old.

So you admitting that 1 trade didn't work how you thought is fine except your views for why that trade needed to happen haven't changed and should at least be examined, considering how off you were. So maybe your views are outdated for today's NBA. It's more than just being wrong on 1 thing, it's being as wrong as you were, we got worse not better, and many teams ascended that you believed would decline. See the issue?
 

Cheesebeef

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Yeah, far far far worse. Booker missed way more time that season (29 games out vs 14 this year), Ayton got hurt, Paul and Cam got hurt for a long stretch, Payne missed almost half the year, even Okogie broke his face. Basically the only players that stayed healthy were Craig and Bridges.

See… this is where we just can’t have a legitimate convo about this because you refuse to ever give an inch. CP3 ALWAYS missed and misses a big chunk of the season. Can Johnson ALWAYS misses big chunks of the season. Can Payne ALWAYS misses big chunks of the season. Ayton ALWAYS misses 15 games per season. So to say injuries were far far far worse just doesn’t hold water. Booker missed 15 more games. But that was all that was out of the ordinary in 2022-23 season. The rest of the injuries have been baked into those players’ cake for the entirety of their careers.

Booker got hurt in early December, spent most of month hobbled because he tried to come back to soon, then got hurt bad on Christmas and missed the next 7 weeks. We were 16-7, Cam got hurt in late November, then we went the next few months missing, at minimum, 2 starters and typically several back ups every single game. We had a stretch where we went 2-12 and if you look at the box scores and see who were were running out there, it wasn't surprising.

We started getting guys back and had a 9-2 run (mostly without Booker still) then came the trade.

Their record when even somewhat healthy was 25-9.

That team was not nearly as bad as you are choosing to remember.

And now the usual cherry-picking part of this argument.

For all the talk of “9-2 and 25-9 when everyone’s healthy!” and if not for bad luck of injuries is the EXACT same thing said about the Suns at the 56 mark this season… when they had a rash of injuries to start the season, but had recently gone like 10-3 and were 22-7 since the Dallas game. One hot stretch during mid-season doesn’t speak to long-term success.


They had a bad run of luck with injuries, tons of guys missing more time than they ever had.

Again, no. CP3 and the Cams always miss big chunks of the season. Booker missed 15 more than usual, but the injuries to others guys is why you can’t extrapolate a 25-9 record when everyone was healthy because so many of those guys couldn’t be depended on to stay healthy, especially the most important of that *********, CP3, who was washed and was only going to become moreso.

Meanwhile this year's team was HEALTHIER than their previous trends would indicate. Yeah, they had injuries but pretty much everyone they brought in was an injury risk, Booker missed no more time than he had the previous 3 years, Durant and Nurkic were far healthier than they'd been in ages. Beal was Beal.

Yeah, they needed to make moves to get back into contender status... how big of a move? That is debatable.

Well, why not debate this. I’ve asked numerous times for a debate on other trades but no one on the 2022-2023 Suns team still could contend with a trade ever go down that road. At least that’s one that could stimulate NEW discussion instead of us just going round in circles.

However, the Durant trade crippled this franchise and made them a lesser team from the jump.

Again… I don’t disagree that Durant crippled them for the future but the argument that he made them a lesser team from the jump just isn’t supported by actual evidence and implies that the 2022-2023 Suns pre-trade were better than they actually were. The facts are both teams riddled by injuries in the first half of their respective seasons, and the team’s records are what they are. Trying to run out the 25-9 argument as if CP3, Cam Johnson, Cam Payne and Ayton could actually stay consistently healthy moving forward is one without evidence because those guys ALWAYS miss big chunks of the season. And if Booker being down for 29 games instead of his usual 15 could make that team plummet to that pathetic 2-12 record it speaks to how mediocre the team around him was in the first place, IMO.

But… we’ve been here before and I don’t need to really be here again.

And going forward I cannot fathom how any of the other proposed or imagined trades could have been more damaging than the path they pursued.

Well… we got nothing else to talk about right now, so let’s do this dance based on the players Hoop Head mentioned?
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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You're whole view on what makes a contender is warped. We apparently weren't one and couldn't be unless we did a rebuild or make the KD trade, which you believed would make us a contender. It didn't, you say you admit that now but you're too hard headed to admit maybe your views and ideas of what makes a contender is off. IIRC you said the Warriors were done before they won another title, didn't predict that Denver would ascend to championship heights, that Minnesota would make the run they have, or even the Suns would make the finals a few years back. Im not saying you have to predict those things for your view to matter but often your views of those things were the opposite of what happened. I know you bashed the Gobert trade in Minnesota, doubt the Suns plenty, and also thought the Warriors were too old.

So you admitting that 1 trade didn't work how you thought is fine except your views for why that trade needed to happen haven't changed and should at least be examined, considering how off you were. So maybe your views are outdated for today's NBA. It's more than just being wrong on 1 thing, it's being as wrong as you were, we got worse not better, and many teams ascended that you believed would decline. See the issue?
I do see the issue. If someone disagrees with you they are “warped” or “hard headed.” You’re full of insults. And I’ve just borne them. But I’m freaking sick of it. The mods want this board to become P&R they can continue to allow your filth to post that crap.

I’m going to ask to cite all your allegations. Because I just this season opined warriors were done. Prior to that I thought their reloading with poole, the center they took #2, kuminga, the acquisition of wiggins, and moody would give them rebirth. Not all of that was right, but I didn’t claim they were too old as you suggest when they won.

And you’re holding a unmade statement against me? Lol. I never commented on Denver either way. That’s a joke of a comment.

Please show me the overwhelming comments on this board claiming the wolves would go on this run. Contrary most we’re saying they liked our matchup with them the best based on regular season. Also joke comment. You’re reaching.

And pretty sure entire board panned Gobert trade.

Please quote me all the times you were right about everything that occurred in the nba.

You’re a freaking joke. Your takes are jokes. You make the board a worse place. Congrats
 

Hoop Head

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I do see the issue. If someone disagrees with you they are “warped” or “hard headed.” You’re full of insults. And I’ve just borne them. But I’m freaking sick of it. The mods want this board to become P&R they can continue to allow your filth to post that crap.

I’m going to ask to cite all your allegations. Because I just this season opined warriors were done. Prior to that I thought their reloading with poole, the center they took #2, kuminga, the acquisition of wiggins, and moody would give them rebirth. Not all of that was right, but I didn’t claim they were too old as you suggest when they won.

And you’re holding a unmade statement against me? Lol. I never commented on Denver either way. That’s a joke of a comment.

Please show me the overwhelming comments on this board claiming the wolves would go on this run. Contrary most we’re saying they liked our matchup with them the best based on regular season. Also joke comment. You’re reaching.

And pretty sure entire board panned Gobert trade.

Please quote me all the times you were right about everything that occurred in the nba.

You’re a freaking joke. Your takes are jokes. You make the board a worse place. Congrats

Oh when someone other than you and Cheese say someone is hard headed or discredit someone's opinion, the mods should step in. How rich. I didn't even make it past that part. The hypocrisy of that statement alone is too much. How many times have you been left off with slaps on the wrist, bans removed early, or just given free reign? Probably close to the same number of posters you 2 have chased off. But it's cool. You think saying someone is hard headed is an attack worthy of mods stepping in yet you openly called me an idiot in another thread. Which seems worse, genuinely asking.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Oh when someone other than you and Cheese say someone is hard headed or discredit someone's opinion, the mods should step in. How rich. I didn't even make it past that part. The hypocrisy of that statement alone is too much. How many times have you been left off with slaps on the wrist, bans removed early, or just given free reign? Probably close to the same number of posters you 2 have chased off. But it's cool. You think saying someone is hard headed is an attack worthy of mods stepping in yet you openly called me an idiot in another thread. Which seems worse, genuinely asking.
I called you that due to your incessant personal attacks.

Btw, in my 20+ years here I have gotten one ban across all boards. I may challenge peoples perspectives but I generally do respectfully with a desire to debate. Cheese is an attack dog. I know that. He knows that. But you want to lump me in with his style because it makes you feel okay to attack me too. It’s lame and childish.
 

Hoop Head

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I called you that due to your incessant personal attacks.

Btw, in my 20+ years here I have gotten one ban across all boards. I may challenge peoples perspectives but I generally do respectfully with a desire to debate. Cheese is an attack dog. I know that. He knows that. But you want to lump me in with his style because it makes you feel okay to attack me too. It’s lame and childish.

Pointing out how you two can't stay out of each other debates with others is stating the obvious. Take it as a personal attack all you want, stop doing it and it won't be called out. It happens, repeatedly. 2 threads now, I'm not the only 1 involved in this. @95pro is also and look what you 2 did, jump to stand up for the other.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Pointing out how you two can't stay out of each other debates with others is stating the obvious. Take it as a personal attack all you want, stop doing it and it won't be called out. It happens, repeatedly. 2 threads now, I'm not the only 1 involved in this. @95pro is also and look what you 2 did, jump to stand up for the other.
NO ONE IS STANDING UP FOR ANYONE ELSE. Are you daft? Are you saying if cheese responds to a post I can’t? And vice versa? Read that to yourself and tell me if that’s a cool rule. I’ll choose someone to match with you and if they respond to a topic it’s off limits for you to do so. Cool?
 

Hoop Head

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NO ONE IS STANDING UP FOR ANYONE ELSE. Are you daft? Are you saying if cheese responds to a post I can’t? And vice versa? Read that to yourself and tell me if that’s a cool rule. I’ll choose someone to match with you and if they respond to a topic it’s off limits for you to do so. Cool?

Sure thing, buddy. Whatever floats your boat.
 

Chaplin

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NO ONE IS STANDING UP FOR ANYONE ELSE. Are you daft? Are you saying if cheese responds to a post I can’t? And vice versa? Read that to yourself and tell me if that’s a cool rule. I’ll choose someone to match with you and if they respond to a topic it’s off limits for you to do so. Cool?
Come on, Ouchie and Cheese both have separate takes. They may both be equally bad takes, but that doesn't mean they are supporting each other. :thumbup:
 

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