The 2022 NBA Play-In Tournament + Playoffs Thread

angelofthesouth

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I was thinking about now-coach Jason Kidd's playing career and his one weakness as a player (besides personality issues); and it brought to mind an issue that always puzzles me. It's relevant to the Suns mainly because it also explains why they can't use Elfrid Payton in the playoffs. Players who won't learn to shoot and why they don't just learn.

Since this may be a naive question, I'll disclose that I never played competitive basketball. (Couldn't even if I wanted to. Physical disabilities and no athleticism.) So if there's anyone here who actually plays, I would appreciate them answering. Why don't notoriously poor-shooting players, such as Jason Kidd and Elfrid Payton, ever learn to shoot proficiently? Is it that hard to just learn? Aren't they motivated to overcome their weakness? Shooting, and by extension scoring, are more glamorous than defense and other lunch-pail aspects of playing. They make a player look good, if not turning them into a star or making them an even bigger star. You would think it annoys them to hear people sniffing that they can't shoot.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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I was thinking about now-coach Jason Kidd's playing career and his one weakness as a player (besides personality issues); and it brought to mind an issue that always puzzles me. It's relevant to the Suns mainly because it also explains why they can't use Elfrid Payton in the playoffs. Players who won't learn to shoot and why they don't just learn.

Since this may be a naive question, I'll disclose that I never played competitive basketball. (Couldn't even if I wanted to. Physical disabilities and no athleticism.) So if there's anyone here who actually plays, I would appreciate them answering. Why don't notoriously poor-shooting players, such as Jason Kidd and Elfrid Payton, ever learn to shoot proficiently? Is it that hard to just learn? Aren't they motivated to overcome their weakness? Shooting, and by extension scoring, are more glamorous than defense and other lunch-pail aspects of playing. They make a player look good, if not turning them into a star or making them an even bigger star. You would think it annoys them to hear people sniffing that they can't shoot.
Jason Kidd did become a better shooter later in his career. For his last 9 seasons he never shot worse than 35% from three and had several seasons where he shot better than 40% from 3.
 

elindholm

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I was thinking about now-coach Jason Kidd's playing career and his one weakness as a player (besides personality issues); and it brought to mind an issue that always puzzles me. It's relevant to the Suns mainly because it also explains why they can't use Elfrid Payton in the playoffs. Players who won't learn to shoot and why they don't just learn.

Since this may be a naive question, I'll disclose that I never played competitive basketball. (Couldn't even if I wanted to. Physical disabilities and no athleticism.) So if there's anyone here who actually plays, I would appreciate them answering. Why don't notoriously poor-shooting players, such as Jason Kidd and Elfrid Payton, ever learn to shoot proficiently? Is it that hard to just learn? Aren't they motivated to overcome their weakness? Shooting, and by extension scoring, are more glamorous than defense and other lunch-pail aspects of playing. They make a player look good, if not turning them into a star or making them an even bigger star. You would think it annoys them to hear people sniffing that they can't shoot.
It's not that they "can't shoot"; it's that they can't shoot as well as their NBA peers. Put Elfrid Payton in a rec league and he'd look like a good shooter. There's going to be a range of skill levels no matter what. Why doesn't a typical NBA three-point shooter "learn" to shoot it like Curry?
 

angelofthesouth

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Why doesn't a typical NBA three-point shooter "learn" to shoot it like Curry?
Oh, come on, that's not fair. It's like asking why Devin Booker isn't as good as his mentor Kobe Bryant was, or why DeAndre Ayton doesn't learn to shoot skyhooks like Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. But we can more reasonably ask why Elfrid Payton doesn't learn to shoot as well as Jason Kidd, whom De Clown says did learn to shoot better. Quien sabe.

P.S. I like your profile photo, since Jeff Hornacek is my favorite player ever. I should use a profile photo of him; I'm just not going to steal yours.
 

elindholm

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Oh, come on, that's not fair. It's like asking why Devin Booker isn't as good as his mentor Kobe Bryant was, or why DeAndre Ayton doesn't learn to shoot skyhooks like Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. But we can more reasonably ask why Elfrid Payton doesn't learn to shoot as well as Jason Kidd, whom De Clown says did learn to shoot better.
Sure, it's reasonable to ask it, but the answer will be the same.

Michael Jordan was a career 33% three-point shooter. His numbers improved after his first retirement, but why didn't he learn to shoot it better earlier in his career?
 

Russ Smith

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I was thinking about now-coach Jason Kidd's playing career and his one weakness as a player (besides personality issues); and it brought to mind an issue that always puzzles me. It's relevant to the Suns mainly because it also explains why they can't use Elfrid Payton in the playoffs. Players who won't learn to shoot and why they don't just learn.

Since this may be a naive question, I'll disclose that I never played competitive basketball. (Couldn't even if I wanted to. Physical disabilities and no athleticism.) So if there's anyone here who actually plays, I would appreciate them answering. Why don't notoriously poor-shooting players, such as Jason Kidd and Elfrid Payton, ever learn to shoot proficiently? Is it that hard to just learn? Aren't they motivated to overcome their weakness? Shooting, and by extension scoring, are more glamorous than defense and other lunch-pail aspects of playing. They make a player look good, if not turning them into a star or making them an even bigger star. You would think it annoys them to hear people sniffing that they can't shoot.


It's not that simple some guys just can't shoot no matter how hard they work at it. Even when Kidd was playing shooting coaches were a thing and he had them, he got better but he just wasn't a shooter.
 

Russ Smith

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Oh, come on, that's not fair. It's like asking why Devin Booker isn't as good as his mentor Kobe Bryant was, or why DeAndre Ayton doesn't learn to shoot skyhooks like Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. But we can more reasonably ask why Elfrid Payton doesn't learn to shoot as well as Jason Kidd, whom De Clown says did learn to shoot better. Quien sabe.

P.S. I like your profile photo, since Jeff Hornacek is my favorite player ever. I should use a profile photo of him; I'm just not going to steal yours.


Why doesn't Ayton learn to shoot skyhooks? That's a separate issue IMO the reason nobody does that is it's not common and so it's hard to find someone to teach.

if you really want to get down into it how come bad FT shooters don't go to Rick Barry and learn to shoot underhand? he says it all the time he's had dozens of NBA players tell him they don't want to learn because it looks funny.
 

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Sure, it's reasonable to ask it, but the answer will be the same.

Michael Jordan was a career 33% three-point shooter. His numbers improved after his first retirement, but why didn't he learn to shoot it better earlier in his career?

I've always believed guys with really big hands struggle to shoot for the same reason it's hard for someone to shoot a tennis ball, it's too small.

Kawhi is the exception enormous hands and became a good shooter there have always been guys like Jordan, Dr J etc who had huge hands and were not great shooters.
 

elindholm

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I've always believed guys with really big hands struggle to shoot for the same reason it's hard for someone to shoot a tennis ball, it's too small.
I've never been able to shoot, not even free throws. I practiced for decades and eventually gave up. In my case, I think it's because my wrists are too loose and my hands are very bony. I don't have enough joint control or tissue structure to maintain useful contact with the ball as it's released from my hand. I wonder whether a larger ball would be easier for me. I've tried shooting with women's basketballs (1 inch less in circumference) and haven't noticed any difference.
 

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Sure, it's reasonable to ask it, but the answer will be the same.

Michael Jordan was a career 33% three-point shooter. His numbers improved after his first retirement, but why didn't he learn to shoot it better earlier in his career?

I think it was because the rest of his game was so ridiculously dominant. Jordan has the highest efficiency rating in NBA history, the top 20 is basically all-time big men, all time great shooters and... Jordan (and LeBron).

If you were firing up even 4 or 5 threes per game in the 80s the press (and the other stars) would have called you a coward, Bird never sniffed 4 a game and he was the best shooter of the decade. Jordan was a guy who could seemingly get the rim at will, and drew more fouls than anyone outside of the league's centers.

I think if Jordan had come into the modern NBA he would have focused on his outside shooting more and gotten better at it, the guy was one of the most skilled players ever.
 

Phrazbit

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It's not that they "can't shoot"; it's that they can't shoot as well as their NBA peers. Put Elfrid Payton in a rec league and he'd look like a good shooter. There's going to be a range of skill levels no matter what. Why doesn't a typical NBA three-point shooter "learn" to shoot it like Curry?

I do agree with this though...

Well, most of it...

Payton might dominate other aspects of rec league basketball, but I think even rec guys can shoot wide open threes and, especially, free throws better than Payton.

Payton shot 37% from the line this year. I honestly think I could challenge that... with a blind fold on... and I need shoulder surgery... on my shooting arm...
 

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