That Kyler Murray kid

Krangthebrain

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All of that is fair. But it doesn't absolve him from criticism. There are some here who will get angry if we dare question Kyler whatsoever about anything. I know I've been told to go be a fan of another team multiple times because I'm not completely certain Kyler's destined to be a top 5 QB.


They have talent, but to me, it's more about how that talent was acquired.

Who is Rodgers throwing to? Did he get a 1st round WR for multiple years because he needed that to succeed? Did the Packers go out and pay a lot of money for a top flight free agent to make him successful? No. The notable skill players he has around him are mostly all drafted and home grown, all past the 1st round. Davante Adams a 2nd round pick, his next two WRs in the 5th and 6th, Aaron Jones in the 5th, Tonyan undrafted by another team.

Brady's a little different, but homegrown WRs in Evans and Godwin (3rd round), Ronald Jones (2nd round)... sure, there's Gronk, AB, and Fournette, but all of them are essentially scrap heap players that multiple teams had a shot at on cheap contracts (Gronk being the exception only playing with Brady).

Mahomes' best weapons were drafted after the 3rd round. Kelce (3rd round), Hill (5th round).

Brees is also getting it done with guys who weren't heralded players and were home grown. Michael Thomas (2nd round), Alvin Kamara (3rd round).

The reason I bring this up is that lots of posters here say we must provide Kyler with another 1st round pick at WR, or TE, or upgrade at running back, and spend more and more money just to get the offense up to *****. These top QBs aren't sitting around with key weapons that were purchased on the free agent market, by giving up a ton of trade capital, or burning a 1st round pick on a position where they already have another star.

That's what puts a little fear in me about Kyler. Is he really making anyone around him that much better? Sure, he balls out when he runs, but it doesn't seem like he takes the rest of the offense with him. That could easily be Kliff's fault.

Ok here is the crack at it:

1) Rodgers. Rodgers IS a generational talent, but he wasn't overnight. When he was young, He had Greg Jennings and Jordy Nelson. Both 2nd round picks. I think you are WAY too fixated on what round a guy was drafted in. The Packers have also been roundly criticized over and over for how LITTLE they invest in Rodgers. He had a good season last year because a bunch of unheralded guys did pan out, but he looked like he was in a pretty good decline going into the year.

2) The fact that you gloss over Gronk, AB, and Fournette, is freaking laughable! Gronk is a first ballot hall of famer! AB was on that trajectory before his breakdown. Mike Evans AND Godwin were both higher picks as was Ronald Jones. Colllectively, you have a 1st (Evans), 2nd (Gronk, 2nd (Jones), 1st (Fournette), 1st (OJ Howard), 5th? (AB)….bro.....you totally destroy your own argument even mentioning the Bucs! This a collection of highly rated talents.

3) Mahomes also has Sammy Watkins who the Chiefs expected to be real good and they paid him as such.

4) The Saints invested quite a bit of draft capital on their skill players. Using a second IS a significant investment, which is why Isabella not working out (or really being extensively used) is such a whiff.

As for the rest, you create this giant strawman (per usual). I haven't really seen ANYONE on this board saying the Cardinals MUST use a first rounder. NO ONE. It's a machination of your crazy imagination.
 

Solar7

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Ok here is the crack at it:

1) Rodgers. Rodgers IS a generational talent, but he wasn't overnight. When he was young, He had Greg Jennings and Jordy Nelson. Both 2nd round picks. I think you are WAY too fixated on what round a guy was drafted in. The Packers have also been roundly criticized over and over for how LITTLE they invest in Rodgers. He had a good season last year because a bunch of unheralded guys did pan out, but he looked like he was in a pretty good decline going into the year.

2) The fact that you gloss over Gronk, AB, and Fournette, is freaking laughable! Gronk is a first ballot hall of famer! AB was on that trajectory before his breakdown. Mike Evans AND Godwin were both higher picks as was Ronald Jones. Colllectively, you have a 1st (Evans), 2nd (Gronk, 2nd (Jones), 1st (Fournette), 1st (OJ Howard), 5th? (AB)….bro.....you totally destroy your own argument even mentioning the Bucs! This a collection of highly rated talents.

3) Mahomes also has Sammy Watkins who the Chiefs expected to be real good and they paid him as such.

4) The Saints invested quite a bit of draft capital on their skill players. Using a second IS a significant investment, which is why Isabella not working out (or really being extensively used) is such a whiff.

As for the rest, you create this giant strawman (per usual). I haven't really seen ANYONE on this board saying the Cardinals MUST use a first rounder. NO ONE. It's a machination of your crazy imagination.
Just last year we had plenty of people insisting we needed to use a pick on CeeDee Lamb to get Kyler more weapons. This offseason, people are talking about adding Allen Robinson, or paying Samuel $11 million per year to join us as a #2 wideout. Those are big, expensive additions. WR is again a popular pick for our #1 pick this year, which is a big investment.

And that's what you seem to be missing here - I'm talking about the level of investment, not that a guy's talent of where he was drafted follows him through his career. It's all about how these guys were acquired and for how much. Right now, for the Cardinals to add the talent people are clamoring for, it has to be via the steep cost of free agency or high draft picks, and these other QBs didn't get that.

1) You said it yourself, the Packers have been criticized for how little they hand Rodgers. That's why he's amazing. He's making something out of very little. Undoubtedly were Jordy and Nelson good, but they weren't much of anything with Brett Favre... Rodgers made them better when he stepped on the field. It's not like Rodgers was having a hard time, and they said "yikes, we'd better get him some more weapons, open up the checkbook." That's the point - GB hasn't had to invest deeply because he makes everyone on the field better.

2) Again, it's about investment, not where these guys were drafted or their overall careers. Gronk wasn't going anywhere but TB to play with Tom, and took a very reasonable deal with zero signing bonus. AB was blacklisted from the league and the team invested a whopping $1.25 million on him, functionally the veteran minimum. No one put in a claim for Fournette, it's not like he was a hot commodity. He made $2.5 million, no signing bonus. Barely an investment. Brady came to the team because of Evans and Godwin (who was a 3rd, not a high pick), so it's not like Brady was sitting on a team without weapons and the team had to go out and make these major investments to prop him up to success.

3) A swing and a miss on Watkins doesn't mean the Chiefs needed to go out and get him to make Mahomes better. Mahomes is having incredible success throwing to two guys who were already on the roster, drafted in the third round or later, and he's making everyone around him better.

4) One second round pick for one of Brees' best players is significant investment? I completely disagree with that.

Kyler has the league's highest paid WR, who is a top 3 guy, two second round picks, a first ballot Hall of Famer (!) WR, and the 8th highest paid RB, and it's still said "can't knock Kyler until he has a full ensemble." Outside of a middling offensive line, that's about as much as you can invest on a "full ensemble." Sure, you can't guarantee against busts or poor performers, but no NFL team has unlimited money/cap space to acquire proven players.

At some point, a "generationally talented" QB needs to make the guys around him better and make due. Of course it's not all on him, we need to draft better, but this team is stuck in a perpetual state of drafting/trading/signing more costly investments to replace the cheaper ones we failed on.
 

Krangthebrain

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Murray became the first player in NFL history with 7,000-plus passing yards, 45-plus touchdown passes and 15-plus touchdown runs in his first two NFL seasons. He also became the first player in NFL history with 6,000-plus passing yards and 1,100-plus rushing yards in his first 25 career games. Murray set an NFL record for the most games with a passing and rushing touchdown in a season with nine, and became just the second player in league history with 25-plus touchdown passes and 10-plus rushing touchdowns in a season (Cam Newton in 2015 is the other).

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/...-in-nfl-history-to-achieve-rare-feat-in-2020/
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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All of that is fair. But it doesn't absolve him from criticism. There are some here who will get angry if we dare question Kyler whatsoever about anything. I know I've been told to go be a fan of another team multiple times because I'm not completely certain Kyler's destined to be a top 5 QB.


They have talent, but to me, it's more about how that talent was acquired.

Who is Rodgers throwing to? Did he get a 1st round WR for multiple years because he needed that to succeed? Did the Packers go out and pay a lot of money for a top flight free agent to make him successful? No. The notable skill players he has around him are mostly all drafted and home grown, all past the 1st round. Davante Adams a 2nd round pick, his next two WRs in the 5th and 6th, Aaron Jones in the 5th, Tonyan undrafted by another team.

Brady's a little different, but homegrown WRs in Evans and Godwin (3rd round), Ronald Jones (2nd round)... sure, there's Gronk, AB, and Fournette, but all of them are essentially scrap heap players that multiple teams had a shot at on cheap contracts (Gronk being the exception only playing with Brady).

Mahomes' best weapons were drafted after the 3rd round. Kelce (3rd round), Hill (5th round).

Brees is also getting it done with guys who weren't heralded players and were home grown. Michael Thomas (2nd round), Alvin Kamara (3rd round).

The reason I bring this up is that lots of posters here say we must provide Kyler with another 1st round pick at WR, or TE, or upgrade at running back, and spend more and more money just to get the offense up to *****. These top QBs aren't sitting around with key weapons that were purchased on the free agent market, by giving up a ton of trade capital, or burning a 1st round pick on a position where they already have another star.

That's what puts a little fear in me about Kyler. Is he really making anyone around him that much better? Sure, he balls out when he runs, but it doesn't seem like he takes the rest of the offense with him. That could easily be Kliff's fault.
No you’re moving goalposts now. The argument was a generational talent shouldn’t need to be surrounded by talent. It doesn’t matter how that talent was acquired if it’s talent. The acquisition part is on the GM. The play on the field is on the QB. And if the argument is kyler should be able to lift up mediocre players why isn’t that fitting for other great QBs?
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Care to elaborate? I'm not saying that the QBs listed don't play with some incredible talent, but that talent wasn't brought aboard with the use of high picks or gaudy contracts. All of those QBs make the people around them better.
Would those talented players be less talented playing with kyler? If not, then he’s clearly at the level of those other QBs. If the argument what level is kyler at, you can’t downgrade him bc he’s got a gm that is poorer at acquiring homegrown talent than are the other teams’ gms for the other QBs. Give Rodgers kylers skill players Isabella and keesean and Kirk and are they better? I doubt it.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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There are none so deaf as those who will not hear

Solar even if sometimes deceived us with some kind and positive words he still a Murray hater
People rarely change their opinions in good faith
Naw this is a bad post. He does not hate kyler he’s just not ready to anoint him the second coming. There are a lot of other stops on the spectrum between the two poles.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Kyler has the league's highest paid WR, who is a top 3 guy, two second round picks, a first ballot Hall of Famer (!) WR, and the 8th highest paid RB, and it's still said "can't knock Kyler until he has a full ensemble." Outside of a middling offensive line, that's about as much as you can invest on a "full ensemble." Sure, you can't guarantee against busts or poor performers, but no NFL team has unlimited money/cap space to acquire proven players.

At some point, a "generationally talented" QB needs to make the guys around him better and make due. Of course it's not all on him, we need to draft better, but this team is stuck in a perpetual state of drafting/trading/signing more costly investments to replace the cheaper ones we failed on.
Come on man that’s faulty reasoning. Jerry rice is a HOFer. If he was signed as our #2 would you argue “I can’t believe kyler can’t raise his game!?!” The investment in the guys doesn’t make them talented. What they were years ago doesn’t make them talented now. No QB is going to turn back the clock for Fitz or make Isabella productive or help Kirk catch passes instead of dropping gamewinners. The reason people are clamoring to use a 1st rounder or sign a FA is because keim hasn’t shown the ability to get much from further in the draft. He just hasn’t surrounded kyler with talent. Swap our skill positions for those in any of the other teams and you don’t think we see differences in any of them? Cuz that’s essentially your argument.
 

Cards_Campos

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Watt came here because he said He believes in Kyler Murray. After being with Watson that is high praise.
 

Solar7

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No you’re moving goalposts now. The argument was a generational talent shouldn’t need to be surrounded by talent. It doesn’t matter how that talent was acquired if it’s talent. The acquisition part is on the GM. The play on the field is on the QB. And if the argument is kyler should be able to lift up mediocre players why isn’t that fitting for other great QBs?
It is fitting, though. All of these guys proposed in that post have lifted up lesser players in their career.

Would those talented players be less talented playing with kyler? If not, then he’s clearly at the level of those other QBs. If the argument what level is kyler at, you can’t downgrade him bc he’s got a gm that is poorer at acquiring homegrown talent than are the other teams’ gms for the other QBs. Give Rodgers kylers skill players Isabella and keesean and Kirk and are they better? I doubt it.
Hard to answer. Would Marquez Valdez-Scantling be a starting WR under Kyler? Would Robert Tonyan have 11 TDs from Kyler Murray? Aaron Jones is better than Drake, sure. Is Davante Adams really so much more talented than DeAndre Hopkins that there's a 12 TD gap between the two?

We can't really know.

Come on man that’s faulty reasoning. Jerry rice is a HOFer. If he was signed as our #2 would you argue “I can’t believe kyler can’t raise his game!?!” The investment in the guys doesn’t make them talented. What they were years ago doesn’t make them talented now. No QB is going to turn back the clock for Fitz or make Isabella productive or help Kirk catch passes instead of dropping gamewinners. The reason people are clamoring to use a 1st rounder or sign a FA is because keim hasn’t shown the ability to get much from further in the draft. He just hasn’t surrounded kyler with talent. Swap our skill positions for those in any of the other teams and you don’t think we see differences in any of them? Cuz that’s essentially your argument.
I only brought up Larry being a Hall of Famer because Gronk was brought up as a Hall of Famer in the talk about getting Brady talent.

My overall point is that no QB is going to get the benefit of his skill players being all #1 picks or top-flight free agents in the modern NFL, so saying that we have to wait until he's got that to be successful essentially means we'll never be able to evaluate him.

I don't think any of the five guys in the conversation would have a problem finding wins with our skill players.

As you mentioned in a previous post, I'm just not ready to anoint him. He has a ton of room for growth, and at some point he may even benefit from different coaching.
 

K1Day1

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SMH.... As fans lets just give the kid some time and at least see what he looks like and how he grows in year 3.
Either that or the Cardinals can always trade Kyler to the 49ers and get Josh Rosen back.
 
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Krangthebrain

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It is fitting, though. All of these guys proposed in that post have lifted up lesser players in their career.


Hard to answer. Would Marquez Valdez-Scantling be a starting WR under Kyler? Would Robert Tonyan have 11 TDs from Kyler Murray? Aaron Jones is better than Drake, sure. Is Davante Adams really so much more talented than DeAndre Hopkins that there's a 12 TD gap between the two?

We can't really know.


I only brought up Larry being a Hall of Famer because Gronk was brought up as a Hall of Famer in the talk about getting Brady talent.

My overall point is that no QB is going to get the benefit of his skill players being all #1 picks or top-flight free agents in the modern NFL, so saying that we have to wait until he's got that to be successful essentially means we'll never be able to evaluate him.

I don't think any of the five guys in the conversation would have a problem finding wins with our skill players.

As you mentioned in a previous post, I'm just not ready to anoint him. He has a ton of room for growth, and at some point he may even benefit from different coaching.

The most ridiculous part of your argument is that you are essentially saying the Cardinals don't need to use more assets to acquire talent.

Murray only had one reliable receiver last year! Does it matter what was used before? It's the same inane argument use were using for Rosen a few offseasons ago and look how that worked out.

The Cardinals need more receiving talent regardless of where it is acquired.
 

Brian in Mesa

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I don't remember too many people complaining about "the lack of offensive weapons" when this team was 6-3 (and should have been even better) with Kyler being the talk of the league and even in the MVP discussion. Then Kyler got banged up and we had no suitable backup so we finished the year 2-5 with subpar Kyler. A decent backup QB and we're in the playoffs - even with the offensive line/weapons we had.
 

ajcardfan

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I don't remember too many people complaining about "the lack of offensive weapons" when this team was 6-3 (and should have been even better) with Kyler being the talk of the league and even in the MVP discussion. Then Kyler got banged up and we had no suitable backup so we finished the year 2-5 with subpar Kyler. A decent backup QB and we're in the playoffs - even with the offensive line/weapons we had.

I will never understand why Hundley wasn't the guy at backup QB. I feel we would have beat the Rams had he played in that game.
 

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