Suns players who were bonafide superstars plus tiers

[GatorAZ]

Shawn was an All-Star before Nash came... as Marbury's sidekick. He wasn't the man then, he was a complimentary piece. I think he was one of the best utility players in Suns history, and in the league as a whole over the last 20 years. He could do anything asked of him at a very high level except score and that's what keeps him from being more than tier 3.

Someone who can carry a team as a contender or pretender needs to be able to put the team on their back and gets buckets, unfortunately that's the one thing Marion couldn't do. He could score on put backs, cuts, and hit open 3's but he couldn't create shots for himself and would be left open for those 3's because he wasn't someone opponents had to stop offensively.

You seem to think I put Marion in the superstar tier. He was an all pro player and multi all star. I mean Amar’e was a sidekick and a total negative on one side of the ball.

 

[Hoop Head]

You seem to think I put Marion in the superstar tier. He was an all pro player and multi all star. I mean Amar’e was a sidekick and a total negative on one side of the ball.

It seems like all the responses I've received knocking him from tier 2 to 3 think I'm knocking him off the list entirely.

Amare was a sidekick also but he was more like 1B to Nash as 1A, like how Paul and Booker are.

I think to be in the top tier you need to be someone a contender can be built around and there's no doubting Nash, Barkley, Kidd and Westy in that tier as they were all centerpieces or driving forces on contenders. These are guys in the NBA conversation and starters on All-Star teams while also being locks for All NBA teams.

I think tier 2 are players who are great players but you'll never contend for a title with them as your #1 guy. They can carry you to the postseason but won't take you anywhere beyond that. If you can make one of them your #2 then you can contend. All NBA players and perennial All-Stars

Tier 3 are great players but not centerpieces or true #1 options that can carry you to the postseason. These guys make great sidekicks and can help get you somewhere if you have someone in tier 1 or 2 to pair with them. All Stars but not quite All NBA type of players.

That's how I view it and Marion falls in tier 3 as far as I'm concerned.

 

[itlnsunsfan]

Shawn was an All-Star before Nash came... as Marbury's sidekick. He wasn't the man then, he was a complimentary piece. I think he was one of the best utility players in Suns history, and in the league as a whole over the last 20 years. He could do anything asked of him at a very high level except score and that's what keeps him from being more than tier 3.

Someone who can carry a team as a contender or pretender needs to be able to put the team on their back and gets buckets, unfortunately that's the one thing Marion couldn't do. He could score on put backs, cuts, and hit open 3's but he couldn't create shots for himself and would be left open for those 3's because he wasn't someone opponents had to stop offensively.

How would you rank Bill Russell? He averaged less career ppg than Marion.

 

[Hoop Head]

How would you rank Bill Russell? He averaged less career ppg than Marion.

Points aren't everything but they are something. Russell was one of the best interior defenders of all time. Marion was never on an all defense team as a Sun. So while his defense was good, it wasn't exceptional like Russell. Russell also could create his own buckets inside, Marion couldn't.

Just to be clear, Russell was one of the first superstars in the NBA and clearly in tier 1. You could build a contender around him as your centerpiece.

 

[Cheesebeef]

How would you rank Bill Russell? He averaged less career ppg than Marion.

Shawn Marion averaged 15.2 ppg and 8.7 rebounds. Russell averaged 15.2 ppg and 22 rebounds per game. Basically same scoring and nearly TRIPLED Marions rebounding. he was also apparently the most dominant defensive player of all time. Completely controlled an entire side of the court and COULD score if needed. I rank him a superstar and the backbone of a 9 time champion.

 

[itlnsunsfan]

Shawn Marion averaged 15.2 ppg and 8.7 rebounds. Russell averaged 15.2 ppg and 22 rebounds per game. Basically same scoring and nearly TRIPLED Marions rebounding. he was also apparently the most dominant defensive player of all time. Completely controlled an entire side of the court and COULD score if needed. I rank him a superstar and the backbone of a 9 time champion.

Not to be trivial, but I'm showing Russell averaged 15.1 career ppg. His career high scoring game is 37. Marion's is 44. Russell scored 30+ in 15 games. Marion did it 39 times. The point I'm trying to highlight is Russell wasn't a guy that put the team on his back to get buckets, but he carried his team to more championships than anyone, and is one of the biggest superstars of all time. Marion is nowhere near Russell, but the assertion that a player needs to be able to shoulder the offense to carry a team, or be a top tier player, is false.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/russebi01.html

 

[Cheesebeef]

Not to be trivial, but I'm showing Russell averaged 15.1 career ppg. His career high scoring game is 37. Marion's is 44. Russell scored 30+ in 15 games. Marion did it 39 times. The point I'm trying to highlight is Russell wasn't a guy that put the team on his back to get buckets, but he carried his team to more championships than anyone, and is one of the biggest superstars of all time. Marion is nowhere near Russell, but the assertion that a player needs to be able to shoulder the offense to carry a team, or be a top tier player, is false.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/russebi01.html

except that isn't what was originally said, was it? I know AFAIC, a player has to be elite at MULTIPLE aspects of the game. Never said it all had to be on offense. Russell proved that. AND he could score on offense, while creating for others with 4 assists per game. So he made a solid contribution on offense and was basically the best defensive player of all time and flat out destroying people on the boards only rivaled by one player ever... his constant nemesis he beat, Wilt Chamberlain. The never before seen or after defensive dominance plus being a well rounded offensive contributor made him a superstar, IMO.

 

[Matt L]

You know, Booker has basically every scoring Suns record for this point in his career. Most 30 point games highest average to start his career etc.

I get he played terrible last night, but he has to be tier 1 - especially if you put someone like Kidd there.

Give Kidd the supporting cast Nash had and we might have a title...

 

[Matt L]

This has turned into a what tier should Marion be in argument...i would say firmly in the 2nd tier.

I do wonder, would you rather have prime Igoudala or prime Marion on your team?

 

[GatorAZ]

This has turned into a what tier should Marion be in argument...in would say firmly in the 2nd tier.

I do wonder, would you rather have prime Igoudala or prime Marion on your team?

Should’ve had both.

 

[itlnsunsfan]

He could do anything asked of him at a very high level except score and that's what keeps him from being more than tier 3.

Someone who can carry a team as a contender or pretender needs to be able to put the team on their back and gets buckets, unfortunately that's the one thing Marion couldn't do.

except that isn't what was originally said, was it? I know AFAIC, a player has to be elite at MULTIPLE aspects of the game. Never said it all had to be on offense. Russell proved that. AND he could score on offense, while creating for others with 4 assists per game. So he made a solid contribution on offense and was basically the best defensive player of all time and flat out destroying people on the boards only rivaled by one player ever... his constant nemesis he beat, Wilt Chamberlain. The never before seen or after defensive dominance plus being a well rounded offensive contributor made him a superstar, IMO.

My post was in relation to Hoophead's. I expounded on yours because I said Russell's career average was less than Marion's, while you said they were the same. Ham handed of me, and I agree with what you're saying. I also get what Hoophead is saying. I just wanted to point out that the greatest champion of all time could maybe be characterized as more of a Marion type than a Kobe type.

 

[Mainstreet]

I think Joe Johnson belongs on the list. He was with the Suns 3 1/2 seasons. True he really didn't blow up until after the Suns traded him but he was with the Suns on some good teams. The Suns not extending him is one of the worst moves the franchise has made.

 

[GatorAZ]

I think Joe Johnson belongs on the list. He was with the Suns 3 1/2 seasons. True he really didn't blow up until after the Suns traded him but he was with the Suns on some good teams. The Suns not extending him is one of the worst moves the franchise has made.

Joe should be on there and Dragic too as mentioned.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Not to be trivial, but I'm showing Russell averaged 15.1 career ppg. His career high scoring game is 37. Marion's is 44. Russell scored 30+ in 15 games. Marion did it 39 times. The point I'm trying to highlight is Russell wasn't a guy that put the team on his back to get buckets, but he carried his team to more championships than anyone, and is one of the biggest superstars of all time. Marion is nowhere near Russell, but the assertion that a player needs to be able to shoulder the offense to carry a team, or be a top tier player, is false.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/russebi01.html

There are unique outliers to that general rule. Russell is likely a one of kind example of that. Marion doesn’t touch him.

 

[Bufalay]

I was joking about VORP in the Booker thread and realized that its a pretty useful stat. Here is an all-time ranking of VORP https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/vorp_career.html.

7. Paul
11. Barkley
17. Kidd
37. Nash
38. Marion
67. KJ
103. Marbury
111. Majerle
141. Westphal
174. Stoudemire

The biggest limitation is that it is cumulative so players with shorter careers like Stoudemire and Westphal don't fare as well.

 

[elindholm]

I was joking about VORP in the Booker thread and realized that its a pretty useful stat. Here is an all-time ranking of VORP https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/vorp_career.html.

The biggest limitation is that it is cumulative so players with shorter careers like Stoudemire and Westphal don't fare as well.

Does anyone give VORP per game played?

 

[Bufalay]

Does anyone give VORP per game played?

Couldn't find it, might have to do it myself.

 

[GatorAZ]

WS/48 is the closest thing to per game I could find:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_per_48_career.html

 

[Bufalay]

WS/48 is the closest thing to per game I could find:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_per_48_career.html

I don't really know the difference between win shares and vorp, but win shares tend to only be high for players on good teams. For example, Raja Bell and Devin Booker have the same win shares/48, but Booker has a better VORP.

 

[GatorAZ]

I don't really know the difference between win shares and vorp, but win shares tend to only be high for players on good teams. For example, Raja Bell and Devin Booker have the same win shares/48, but Booker has a better VORP.

My understanding is that VORP and +/- are the same metric with VORP having more significance on playing time. Win Shares I’m pretty sure is an accumulation of stats and impact. Booker is outside the top-90 in VORP and WS/48. Paul is top-20 in both.

 

[Yuma]

except that isn't what was originally said, was it? I know AFAIC, a player has to be elite at MULTIPLE aspects of the game. Never said it all had to be on offense. Russell proved that. AND he could score on offense, while creating for others with 4 assists per game. So he made a solid contribution on offense and was basically the best defensive player of all time and flat out destroying people on the boards only rivaled by one player ever... his constant nemesis he beat, Wilt Chamberlain. The never before seen or after defensive dominance plus being a well rounded offensive contributor made him a superstar, IMO.

I wasn't that great of a Russell fan, but 10 rings you have to respect. I feel Russell had the better system and team mates. One year in Philly Wilt finally got a team of guys that were good and they crushed the Celtics! All Russell had to do was slow down Wilt and his team was good for the rest. He didn't have to score. Wilt had to do it all for his teams, score, rebound, assist (remember he lead the leagues in assists one year) block shots (he would get double digit blocks in games), steal the ball, etc. Russell could concentrate on slowing Wilt, and rebounding. That was his job description when they went head to head. Wilt had to be a one man show.

They rarely traded back then, but I always wondered if the Celtics had managed to wrangle away Wilt in a trade, or vice versa, what would those two on one team have done to the league combined?

 

[Matt L]

To add onto the Chambers/Booker comp and taking our minds off that horrible L…

Only qualify if played multiple seasons here (no CP3):

Tier 1: Superstars -

Westphal - 3x first team all-nba and led Suns to their first finals

KJ - elite numbers, out dueled the likes of Stockton/Payton and dominated the defending champion Lakers. His 95’ series vs Houston was legendary

Barkley - duh

Kidd - weakest of the group but 3x first team all-NBA here, all-defense, considered the best PG in the league but was surrounded by misfits/stiffs

Nash - duhhh

—————-

Tier 2:
Connie Hawkins
Dick Van Arsdale
Charlie Scott
Alvan Adams
Walter Davis
Dennis Johnson
Tom Chambers
Shawn Marion
Amare Stoudemire
Devin Booker

—————-

Tier 3:
Gail Goodrich
Charlie Scott
Maurice Lucas
Larry Nance
Jeff Hornacek
Dan Majerle
Stephon Marbury
(Joe Johnson)
(Goran Dragic)


(probably missing some easy ones)

Might need to bump Book up a tier. Ayton and Bridges is looking like they're going to be added too...

 

[Cheesebeef]

Might need to bump Book up a tier. Ayton and Bridges is looking like they're going to be added too...

Booker has been beyond fantastic, ESPECIALLY considering this is his first playoffs ever. Two 40 point games. 5 30 point games. His first triple double. 47 in a road close out game against the defending Champs. He’s doing CRAZY stuff. I believe it will continue.

 

[Matt L]

Booker has been beyond fantastic, ESPECIALLY considering this is his first playoffs ever. Two 40 point games. 5 30 point games. His first triple double. 47 in a road close out game against the defending Champs. He’s doing CRAZY stuff. I believe it will continue.

Honestly, before this season I was nervous that he was DeMar DeRozan 2.0, a all-star but not really the best player on a contending team. Even at the beginning and middle of the season it seemed like he was just good enough but not "legendary."

He's been insane this playoff run and I am blown away at how much he has stepped up in all aspects. Defense, rebounding, passing, controlling the pace. I'm stunned

 

[AzStevenCal]

The never before seen or after defensive dominance plus being a well rounded offensive contributor made him a superstar, IMO.

I know you're talking about his stats but I have to say that despite his athleticism and length Bill was up there with some of the more limited offensive starters of any era. And after the NBA widened the key by 4 feet in the mid 60's (because of Wilt), Bill's offensive weaknesses became even more apparent.

Russell had always lacked offensive moves other than jumping up and once he could no longer post up so close to the rim his scoring began to decline. He was turning 30 when they made this change so it's difficult to say how much of this decline was due to the larger key but he still seemed just as spry and athletic out there for several more years.

Regardless, he was definitely a superstar. Great defender, and over a career he's the greatest defender ever. I say it that way because Wilt had a season or two when he was better. Russell has been quoted at least a few times regarding Wilt's ability, when motivated, to do the things that Bill did even better than Bill ever could.

 

[Mainstreet]

Honestly, before this season I was nervous that he was DeMar DeRozan 2.0, a all-star but not really the best player on a contending team. Even at the beginning and middle of the season it seemed like he was just good enough but not "legendary."

He's been insane this playoff run and I am blown away at how much he has stepped up in all aspects. Defense, rebounding, passing, controlling the pace. I'm stunned

Devin Booker mastering the mid-range game, moves to the basket and passing out of double teams has proved to be a blessing in disguise and make him a more complete player.

The 3-point shot is always there. I'm glad he is not reliant on it although Devin is shooting .352 from three for his career.