Suns @ Grizzlies Monday game thread 3-10-2025

[Covert Rain]

Let's just agree Durant is not a #1 for the Suns.

Yeah we don't agree. I think Durant could have been the right #1 if they had a better plan to build around Book and KD. KD isn't the same player he was 10 years ago for sure and has his own issues but they did a piss poor job building this team around the two of them.

You and I both have been shouting for what 3 seasons to get a legit big man in here? Imagine what this team might have been able to do if instead of Beal they had traded for a beast in the FC. That would have shored up rebounding, defense and reduced 2nd chance points. Some of our biggest issues. Beal helps with NONE of that.

 

[Phrazbit]

There didn't seem to be a solid plan outside of getting KD.

This team stupidly thought you could throw Book and KD together and the rest really didn't matter.

It's been said repeatedly, but the price we paid for KD made that inevitable.

It was a ruinous price to pay with basically zero chance of success.

 

[Covert Rain]

It's been said repeatedly, but the price we paid for KD made that inevitable.

It was a ruinous price to pay with basically zero chance of success.

It 100% didn't help but the Suns were impatient with other moves (i.e. Beal). Plus, every single time someone said the Suns had no moves left, they were proven wrong. I find it hard to believe had they not made the Beal trade there wasn't something else they could have done.

 

[Phrazbit]

It 100% didn't help but the Suns were impatient with other moves (i.e. Beal). Plus, every single time someone said the Suns had no moves left, they were proven wrong. I find it hard to believe had they not made the Beal trade there wasn't something else they could have done.

All they had was Paul's contract and some pick swaps (which in some cases were already leveraged).

Furthermore, Durant's age made patience impossible.

 

[Covert Rain]

All they had was Paul's contract and some pick swaps (which in some cases were already leveraged). It was an empty cupboard.

Furthermore, Durant's age made patience impossible.

It wasn't so empty they couldn't make another move for Beal. It wasn't so empty they ended up swapping one pick for multiple. There were moves to be made. Not that it would have been easy. Again, people keep saying the Suns have no moves to make yet they keep making them. KD is still playing like one of the best players in the league. That move for Beal at that time wasn't a necessity. Who knows what would have been available later. We will never know now.

 

[Phrazbit]

It wasn't so empty they made another move for Beal. It wasn't so empty they ended up swapping one pick for multiple. There were moves to be made. Not that it would have been easy. Maybe there was or wasn't another move out there. Again, people keep saying the Suns have no moves to make yet they keep making them. KD is still playing like one of the best players in the league. That move at that time wasn't a necessity.

I've said before, that pick swap was beyond stupid, we turned one really good asset into 3 terrible ones. I have little doubt we will regret it immensely when the payment comes due.

As for the timing of the Beal trade, it was a crap or get off the pot moment, Paul was either getting traded or cut and it had to happen right then because of his contract option, the Beal trade was direct fallout from the Durant trade. We had virtually no assets and no ability to wait for options to present themselves because of the timeline we'd forced ourselves into.

The other moves we were mostly bargain bin moves that have yielded bargain bin results, a bunch of minimum contract players producing minimum contract play... except for the guys we deliberately overpaid, those players are playing below their contracts.

 

[Covert Rain]

I've said before, that pick swap was beyond stupid, we turned one really good asset into 3 terrible ones. I have little doubt we will regret it immensely when the payment comes due.

As for the timing of the Beal trade, it was a crap or get off the pot moment, Paul was either getting traded or cut and it had to happen right then because of his contract option, the Beal trade was direct fallout from the Durant trade. We had virtually no assets and no ability to wait for options to present themselves because of the timeline we'd forced ourselves into.

The other moves we were mostly bargain bin moves that have yielded bargain bin results, a bunch of minimum contract players producing minimum contract play... except for the guys we deliberately overpaid, those players are playing below their contracts.

We did need to move on from CP3 but the alternative was worse. We gave up CP3, Shamet, 2nd round picks in 2024, 2025, 2026, 2027, and 2030. Then traded first-round pick swaps in 2024, 2026, 2028, and 2030; and cash.

There is no way the Suns couldn't have been better off not making that deal and using those same assets later. There is no telling what other teams would have been willing to do had we held onto those assets. The Suns were impulsive and went for a flashy addition because of the uncertainty of knowing what future opportunities may or may not have been available.

They did it all for redundancy to boot. The Suns were completely fleeced in that deal for a player who is basically Mr. Glass.

 

[Phrazbit]

We did need to move on from CP3 but the alternative was worse. We gave up CP3, Shamet, Rights to a #7 pick, 2nd round picks in 2024, 2025, 2026, 2027, and 2030. Then traded first-round pick swaps in 2024, 2026, 2028, and 2030; and cash.

There is no way the Suns couldn't have been better off not making that deal and using those same assets later. There is no telling what other teams would have been willing to do had we held onto those assets. The Suns were impulsive and went for a flashy addition because of the uncertainty of knowing what future opportunities may or may not have been available.

Some of those picks were already leveraged as swaps in the Durant trade, so they were rather nebulous as assets anyway. The main piece of the Beal trade was Paul's option friendly contract and it was a piece we had to use immediately.

And I feel like your 2nd paragraph describes the Durant trade far far better than the Beal one. The Beal trade was made because we'd painted ourselves into a corner and had little to work with, the Durant trade was made going after a shiny bobble with very little thought on the repercussions.

 

[Covert Rain]

Some of those picks were already leveraged as swaps in the Durant trade, so they were rather nebulous as assets anyway. The main piece of the Beal trade was Paul's option friendly contract and it was a piece we had to use immediately.

And I feel like your 2nd paragraph describes the Durant trade far far better than the Beal one. The Beal trade was made because we'd painted ourselves into a corner and had little to work with, the Durant trade was made going after a shiny bobble with very little thought on the repercussions.

Those assets had value as we have learned from some of those same assets being moved again. Plus, the Wizards were likely not the only team interested in a option friendly contract. It's not even a close comparison IMO (not that we didn't give up a ton). With Durant, we still got one of the best players in the league. Beal? What did we get? A player who is a complete shell of himself, who is always injured and an albatross of an unmovable contract. We got a player that has done nothing to shore up any deficiencies and instead was redundant. It's not even a close comparison. Plus if we move Durant and get some assets replenished? That comparison is even a bigger gap.

 

[Phrazbit]

Those assets had value as we have learned from some of those same assets being moved again. Plus, the Wizards were likely not the only team interested in a option friendly contract. It's not even a close comparison IMO (not that we didn't give up a ton). With Durant, we still got one of the best players in the league. Beal? What did we get? A player who is a complete shell of himself, who is always injured and an albatross of an unmovable contract. We got a player that has done nothing to shore up any deficiencies and instead was redundant. It's not even a close comparison.

Beal was already that player before we traded for him, it's why he cost so little. Go back to the Beal trade thread and read the initial reactions, we had a really good idea of what we were getting and universally it was agreed that we paid very very little in assets.

Durant was the impulse buy with no calculation.

And what did the Wizards flip some of those parts into... Jordan Poole... a toxic player on a terrible contract, who is totally untradable for them.

 

[Covert Rain]

Beal was already that player before we traded for him, it's why he cost so little. Go back to the Beal trade thread and read the initial reactions, we had a really good idea of what we were getting and universally it was agreed that we paid very very little in assets.

Durant was the impulse buy with no calculation.

And what did the Wizards flip some of those parts into... Jordan Poole... a toxic player on a terrible contract, who is totally untradable for them.

The biggest difference is we can get assets replenished by moving KD. There was a ton of interest in him at the deadline. Golden State was willing to give up a ton. That isn't going to be the case with Beal. We either have to eat the rest of his contract or give up something to get off of it. That alone shows that two things are not even close to equal.

Worst case scenario, IF we get decent assets back from a KD move? We rented KD for a few seasons. That will never be the case with Beal. He hindered us in more ways than one and we will never get a return on that trade.

 

[Phrazbit]

The biggest difference is we can get assets replenished by moving KD. There was a ton of interest in him at the deadline. That isn't going to be the case with Beal. We either have to eat the rest of his contract or give up something to get off of it. That alone shows that two things are not even close to equal.

Worst case scenario, IF we get decent assets back from a KD move? We rented KD for a few seasons. That will never be the case with Beal. He hindered us in more ways than one and we will never get a return on that trade.

I am not calling them equal, I am saying the Durant trade was much much much worse.

Furthermore, the Beal trade was a direct consequence of the Durant trade, the Durant trade striping the franchise of it's assets and opportunities is what made them desperate enough to roll the dice on Beal.

We are going to get back a fraction of what we gave up for Durant and probably still be garbage for the better part of a decade afterwards.

 

[Covert Rain]

Y

I am not calling them equal, I am saying the Durant trade was much much much worse.

Furthermore, the Beal trade was a direct consequence of the Durant trade, the Durant trade striping the franchise of it's assets and opportunities is what made them desperate enough to roll the dice on Beal.

We are going to get back a fraction of what we gave up for Durant and probably still be garbage for the better part of a decade afterwards.

Not if we get a good return on a KD trade. That's absolutely not the case. If the GS trade offer is any indication than I think we are going to be OK with assets coming back to us. It might not be 1 for 1 but they will likely be good assets. It will give us a ton of options.

In terms of Beal I think we are saying the same thing but that's only because the Suns had no patience. They didn't know what other teams would be willing to do with those same assets and took a huge gamble on a player like Beal only because that's what was right in front of their face AT THAT TIME.

 

[Phrazbit]

Y

Not if we get a good return on a KD trade. That's absolutely not the case. If the GS trade offer is any indication than I think we are going to be OK with assets coming back to us.

In terms of Beal I think we are saying the same thing but that's only because the Suns had no patience. They didn't know what other teams would be willing to do with those same assets and took a huge gamble on a player like Beal.

Again, the Beal trade was a situation of timing, they HAD to move on Paul's contract, there wasn't time to be patient. They were over the cap and simply letting him expire did nothing for them, it needed to be converted into something because they had such a limited window and no assets after the foolish Durant trade.

Period. There is no getting around that aspect.

The Durant trade was the knee jerk, stupid deal that cost them out the nose, wrecking a team that, even without Paul, was far better than this trash, and had a wealth of assets and flexibility.

 

[Covert Rain]

Again, the Beal trade was a situation of timing, they HAD to move on Paul's contract, there wasn't time to be patient. They were over the cap and simply letting him expire did nothing for them, it needed to be converted into something because they had such a limited window and no assets after the foolish Durant trade.

Period. There is no getting around that aspect.

The Durant trade was the knee jerk, stupid deal that cost them out the nose, wrecking a team that, even without Paul, was far better than this trash, and had a wealth of assets and flexibility.

From the reports I heard, the Suns had a one track mind. I don't know that they explored any other options outside of Beal. Your assumption is completely dependent on assuming there were no other deals to be had. Also, I don't consider the Durant deal knee jerk. That had been in the works for some time. The entire front office wanted him. Sarver wanted him for a different price.

No question this team isn't better than those old teams but that wouldn't change the outcome. Those teams were not going to win a title.

Let's see what we get for KD. Until that happens we don't know what the overall asset situation looks like at the end of this failed experiment. If we get total crap for KD back? We should have taken the GS deal IMO.

 

[Phrazbit]

From the reports I heard, the Suns had a one track mind. I don't know that they explored any other options outside of Beal. Your assumption is completely dependent on assuming there were no other deals to be had. Also, I don't consider the Durant deal knee jerk. That had been in the works for some time. The entire front office wanted him. Sarver wanted him for a different price.

No question this team isn't better than those old teams but that wouldn't change the outcome. Those teams were not going to win a title.

Let's see what we get for KD. Until that happens we don't know what the overall asset situation looks like at the end of this failed experiment. If we get total crap for KD back? We should have taken the GS deal IMO.

There was Beal and there was Poole, those were the two options that seemed to be on the table for Paul's contract. IMO, Poole would have been equally damaging, his contract isn't as bad as Beal's but his play is far worse, he's the tank commander of the worst team in the NBA, they play far better when he is on the bench.

We should have taken the GS deal regardless, I don't think we will see better.

And we don't know what the future held for those teams, they had flexibility all their picks and other premium assets, they could have done a thousand different things.

This teams fate was sealed when Ishbia did the knee jerk trade for Durant and took a deal that the Suns previously had been unwilling to make. Sarver was right to not want him at that price, the price was ruinous, Ishbia didn't care because he didn't know how long it took for the franchise to dig out of the dirt and as a result he has buried them deeper than they've ever been.

 

[Covert Rain]

There was Beal and there was Poole, those were the two options that seemed to be on the table for Paul's contract. IMO, Poole would have been equally damaging, his contract isn't as bad as Beal's but his play is far worse, he's the tank commander of the worst team in the NBA, they play far better when he is on the bench.

We should have taken the GS deal regardless, I don't think we will see better.

And we don't know what the future held for those teams, they had flexibility all their picks and other premium assets, they could have done a thousand different things.

This teams fate was sealed when Ishbia did the knee jerk trade for Durant and took a deal that the Suns previously had been unwilling to make. Sarver was right to not want him at that price, the price was ruinous, Ishbia didn't care because he didn't know how long it took for the franchise to dig out of the dirt and as a result he has buried them deeper than they've ever been.

We don't know that there was that much of a difference in price. There were rumors but we don't know.

At the end of the day though, we don't know the long term effects of that trade. Until KD is traded we won't know that. If we get a good haul back? That paints a much different picture than if we get all crap back.

We shall see.

 

[Yuma]

I think, in hindsight obviously, had we made the trade to get off CP3 and Shammet, but actually traded for a PF or Center, we would have been way ahead even if we still made the stupid Ayton trade.

 

[Hoop Head]

I think, in hindsight obviously, had we made the trade to get off CP3 and Shammet, but actually traded for a PF or Center, we would have been way ahead even if we still made the stupid Ayton trade.

Hindsight or not, there were no other deals available. It was acquire Beal from Washington or Poole from Golden State. Those were the deals to be made given the timeframe available. We had to do a deal ASAP otherwise we'd be on the hook for Paul's salary, which we didn't want and no one else did either. At the time we got Beal for pennies on the dollar. Was it a mistake? It depends on how it's viewed. We're a tax team with or without Beal. His contract was well known when he was acquired. To put our failures on him is ignoring the mess around him.

It also should be noted that it wasn't the front office that reached out to Beal. He was put on the market and expected to land in Milwaukee or Miami when KD and Booker called him. Beal's NTC allowed him to dictate his destination more than any other star player had done.

The choices at the time were broken down Chris Paul, overpaid Jordan Poole, or tax payer MLE. We had no other choices and Beal was sold as the answer to our problems because Booker and Durant, no one else in a Suns uniform produced in the Denver series. We had no assets to add someone a different way. We could have waived Paul and brought in someone on the taxpayer MLE, which would given us someone who makes roughly $7 million a year. Beal was alwaysthe better choice considering we were backed in a corner by the KD trade.

 

[Yuma]

Beal was alwaysthe better choice considering we were backed in a corner by the KD trade.

I was right there with you until the last line. The Suns had two ways to go after adding KD. More offense, or more defense. They choose at almost every point to add offense. We became one dimensional. Arguably, you take two of the top ten scorers in the league, then surround them with defensive players, and you will win your share of NBA games. No. We thought we could just outscore the Denvers of the world, and defense be damned. I think it was the moves after the KD trade that nailed the coffin shut.

 

[Hoop Head]

I was right there with you until the last line. The Suns had two ways to go after adding KD. More offense, or more defense. They choose at almost every point to add offense. We became one dimensional. Arguably, you take two of the top ten scorers in the league, then surround them with defensive players, and you will win your share of NBA games. No. We thought we could just outscore the Denvers of the world, and defense be damned. I think it was the moves after the KD trade that nailed the coffin shut.

I get your point but no one was available at that time that fit the defense first bill.

 

[Mainstreet]

I was right there with you until the last line. The Suns had two ways to go after adding KD. More offense, or more defense. They choose at almost every point to add offense. We became one dimensional. Arguably, you take two of the top ten scorers in the league, then surround them with defensive players, and you will win your share of NBA games. No. We thought we could just outscore the Denvers of the world, and defense be damned. I think it was the moves after the KD trade that nailed the coffin shut.

The KD trade put the Suns in the grave. The Beal and Ayton trades closed it.

 

[Superbone]

The KD trade put the Suns in the grave. The Beal and Ayton trades closed it.

They were the dirt on top.

 

[Mainstreet]

They were the dirt on top.

I was going for a kinder, gentler wording.

 

[Hoop Head]

The KD trade put the Suns in the grave. The Beal and Ayton trades closed it.

They were the dirt on top.

The Beal trade was an attempt to reanimate the deceased corpse. The Ayton trade was slathering it in perfume to keep the smell of death hidden. This body needs buried, still.