Should Suns should follow Hornets plan?

Discussion in 'Phoenix Suns' started by GatorAZ, Aug 7, 2018.

  1. cheesebeef

    cheesebeef Registered User Contributor

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    Huh?

    The season before they signed Q, Q averaged 17.2/6/2 on 40% shooting at the age of 23.

    The season before the signed Q, JJ averaged 16.7/5/4 on 43% shooting at the age of 22.

    Those are pretty much the EXACT same numbers, with Joe having played one fewer year even at that point.

    And Q didn't do jack to lead his previous team to success so not sure why you brought that up as a reason to give him the deal and not JJ.

    Except the contract JJ wanted wasn't CLOSE to the Max. He wanted 5 years for 50. Sarver wanted 5 years for 45. He balked at a difference of a million dollars per year.

    he balked at 1 million dollars more per year on a 5 year deal for JJ. It was an idiotic decision then and still is mostly because he was not only going to get JJ, but he was going to get him for what turned out to be a freaking bargain. Even if he stayed just as 16.7/5/4, he would have been well worth 5 years for 50.
     
  2. Poop Head

    Poop Head Poster formerly known as kingdad

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    JJ did that on a team that was basically tanking, or had given up on the season. He was thrust into a much bigger role rather than taking on a bigger role naturally or with his style of play. He hadn't proved to be that much better or more than Q and demanding more money than him despite not putting up better numbers and not really taking to a leadership role with the team didn't make sense to a new owner learning about the league.

    Everybody wants to talk about $5 million and while that may not appear to be much, we weren't in the room and don't know how things went down. It could have been that much but I don't expect either side to come out be so open about it to the public. Telling an athlete to earn that difference should not be that negative of a thing. If it were truly just $1 million a year, I have a hard time believing they couldn't find a way to make it work somehow with incentives or some way. We've only received word that's been leaked out though and neither JJ or Sarver has addressed the discrepancy in pay being an exact figure as far as I know.

    It's not our money that was being spent though so it's easy to say how it should have been done, especially in hindsight. Sarver said he was willing to pay the max that following summer but that didn't matter to JJ, he already made up his mind and wanted out so the relationship ended up being too damaged at that point for a guy who had owned a team for a year to try and call his bluff and match it. He didn't know the NBA then, and he can be knocked for that, but it's not entirely reasonable to hold that against him for 15 years and use that as the reason for disliking him so long after the fact. It's done, it's over. No one's mind is going to be changed about that at this point. Nobody is trying to change to anyone's mind here either, it's just being discussed because that seems to be the thing that started fans distrust or dislike of Sarver and it's been downhill ever since in a lot of people's minds.
     
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  3. SirStefan32

    SirStefan32 Krycek, Alex Krycek

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    My only takeaway from the JJ situation is that if you have a player you like, just sign him.
     
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  4. cheesebeef

    cheesebeef Registered User Contributor

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    What? No. That team wasn't tanking. They just weren't good. In fact their record was actually BETTER than the Clippers where Richardson was in the same exact position. So, whats good for the goose, should be good for the gander.


    Okay... I have a problem with the above because now you're moving the goalposts on the discussion.First you said and a I quote "Johnson wants a contract bigger than Q despite not really putting up similar numbers or leading our team to any success.

    But now you're saying he didn't deserve the contract because he didn't put up BETTER numbers? Which is it Poop Head... JJ didn't deserve the contract because he didn't put up similar numbers (which he did as evidenced above)... or because he for some reason in your theory above he need to now put up BETTER numbers to get that contract?

    And you keep bringing up this "not really taking a leadership role with the team" as the thing that for some reason made Q worth the contract more than JJ... but how does that make sense? Had Richardson, who was a year older than JJ shown those leadership abilities on the Clippers who were WORSE than us? And do you realize that when they traded Marbury, JJ actually started running the point... at the age of 22, and his numbers went from 16/4/4 to 18/5/5.5?

    Or that by the end of the season, the team actually started playing some pretty solid ball, finishing the season 8-8 over their last 16 games with everyone healthy? 8-8 isn't tanking.


    You may find it hard to believe, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. Oh... actually... you're right... it wasn't 1 million dollars per year. It was actually only $833,000!

    https://basketball.realgm.com/wiret...ll-regrets-allowing-joe-johnson-to-leave-suns

    https://www.azcentral.com/story/spo...ns-2004-05-season-franchise-revival/28417913/

    "Sarver said his biggest regret of his 11 years as managing partner was not extending Johnson before that 2004-05 season started. Johnson wanted a six-year, $50 million contract. Sarver would not budge from $45 million, a difference of $833,333 per year."

    Unless you're saying that the Republic reporter was not only making those figures up out of thin air... while actually getting Sarver to comment on it.

    Those were the numbers. Everyone remembers it. The papers reported it. Next.

    Only it wasn't hindsight when a group of us said it was a mistake WHEN IT HAPPENED.

    You're acting like that decision is the sole reason people dislike him, completely ignoring the fact that for the better part of a decade the team has been atrocious.

    Especially those who refuse to acknowledge the actual facts of the situation, even when multiple links are provided to them to show why their argument is flawed.

    again, you're acting like the Suns haven't been overwhelmingly downhill the last decade and the JJ deal was the only reason people dislike Sarver.
     
  5. Poop Head

    Poop Head Poster formerly known as kingdad

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    Like I said, they gave up on the season. They weren't after a draft pick but their record didn't matter and they knew they'd be awful. They only cared about clearing cap space for that summer.

    You're just looking to argue and I'm not going to bite this time and indulge you any further. You're nitpicking things that happened 15 years ago and we're largely talking about how certain moves were moved and how we judged them. We don't need to agree.

    I've already said my piece and I don't need to justify it to you, of all people, especially when you want to try to break down each and every sentence. You don't do that with anyone else here and I get it, you don't like me, and I don't care because I don't like you either but unlike you I can maintain some civility.
     
  6. GatorAZ

    GatorAZ Formerly known as GatorHater

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    I don’t have a problem with making Joe prove it on a good team before paying him even if they were only off by 5 mil. The problem was giving Q the same exact contract. They should’ve saved the cap space and just drafted Iguodala or Deng. I believe the Q contract pissed off JJ as much as being lowballed. He wanted out after that and had a great contract year. Pretty brutal to let a guy that young go who could shoot, play PG and create his own shot. He also led the 04’-05’ team in minutes and then...

     
  7. Mainstreet

    Mainstreet Registered User Contributor

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    I realize there is another viewpoint, but Sarver could have had Joe Johnson on a reasonable salary if he had not quibbled over $10 million... the difference in extending Joe Johnson before he hit free agency. It's hard to understand why Sarver held his ground on this amount of money unless he was not basketball smart or penny wise and pound foolish

    There have been other basketball moves Sarver has made to save money such as the Kurt Thomas trade and selling draft picks.

    Also one could argue Sarver might have been better off paying Amare $100 million instead of making bad signings in Childress, Turoglu and Warrick.

    I'm hoping Sarver has turned the corner as an owner with the hire of Ryan McDonough.
     
  8. cheesebeef

    cheesebeef Registered User Contributor

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    You're right... we don't need to agree on opinion, but in order to have substantive discussion, we do need to agree on facts, which is why I list/link them after arguments you make that I believe fly in the face of them.

    I break down sentences that I believe aren't based on facts. It's not my fault there's so many of them in your arguments.

    No you don't. I don't do that with anyone else here because to be honest, I don't see anyone one else here get their facts as wrong as you do, IMO. And that kind of thing bothers me in a discussion. So, if you post an argument with a bunch of facts that don't exist, I'm going to probably disagree and then painstakingly show exactly where I don't disagree with facts/links so you can see I'm not just making some general statement with nothing to back it up.

    Jesus... pointing out where your facts are wrong isn't uncivil. Again, it ain't my fault there's so many of them.
     
  9. Poop Head

    Poop Head Poster formerly known as kingdad

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    If you tried talking to people like you do here in a sports bar it would only happen once or twice before either you'd learn better or you wouldn't be welcome back. Oh yeah, you have mentioned about being thrown out of various games before for making drunken scenes. Perhaps that's why you post here now. It's starting to make sense.
     
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  10. Poop Head

    Poop Head Poster formerly known as kingdad

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    I've already mentioned this is all talk of what happened in the past and how we perceived it. Everyone else is commenting the same way, agreeing with certain things and disagreeing with others but every one else is looking at the same picture. You're trying to contort that for some reason. It's childish. I've stated my piece, no one else has an issue with it. It's all perception.

    We're not talking about facts, there is no fact of what makes a player worth a certain amount of money because some players get overpaid, others underpaid, and some get signed to relatively fair deals. How a player is it paid isn't something that is set in stone outside of the contract they sign and no play determines he's worth X amount, the market sets a value and teams pay it or they don't, for numerous reasons. You can say JJ was worth more and he should have been paid, that doesn't make it so. Where are the facts you keep babbling about? Q made X amount? Sarver and company deemed his style of play, production, and role earned him that. You can disagree with that but there really isn't a right or wrong. He did average more than JJ and JJ wanted to be paid more than Q. It may not have been much of a difference but it was a difference. We weren't in the room, we don't know why they valued one of them one way and the other differently. It's all assumptions.

    For god sake, you're whining like a child because I said JJ didn't produce like Q in Sarver's eye's and he wasn't willing to pay him more. What's the big deal? Did Sarver pay him? No. Why? We're not entirely sure but he told him to earn the raise and JJ did but he wanted out. What's the issue? Is that not essentially how things happened? No one else is disputing that. Again, a lot of that is perception and how one is valued by one person isn't the same as how someone else views them.

    And why are you complaining? Because you're looking to pick a fight for some stupid reason. It's ridiculous. Again, you let everything else said in this thread go, even when people have stated similar points of view. I can only assume as to why but I don't really know and have given up caring. Go pound some salt.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2018
  11. cheesebeef

    cheesebeef Registered User Contributor

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    WTF? This was pretty clear in my first post. Both guys put up the same stats. You said they didn't. That's all.

    You also said you doubt the difference in $ was 1 million dollars per year. I provided links to say it was. That's all.

    And I'm not arguing any of that. YOUR argument was a) Sarver made the right call because Q was superior to JJ. The facts don't bear that out. And then another argument was you didn't believe it was only 1 million dollar difference and that if it was Sarver would have worked it out. The facts don't bear that out.

    That's all.

    Whining like a child? I'm responding to your arguments with facts that refute them. You're responding to those by saying "I get it you don't like me! I don't like you! But at least I'm civil!"

    And then calling me a child.

    Again, in previous posts, I pointed out where your facts were wrong as reasons for disagreeing with your argument and in response you've gone on to change your argument multiple times, tell me to "pound sand", say that I'm "babbling", "whining", childish and ridiculous.

    But I'm the one looking to pick a fight. :thumbup:

    Look Poop Head... if I bother you so much, why don't you do everyone a solid and just put me on ignore. If not, try not to accuse me of being uncivil while simultaneously calling me a whining/ridiculous/babbling child every time I dare question you.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2018
  12. AzStevenCal

    AzStevenCal ASFN Contributor Contributor

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    So...how 'bout them Suns.:)
     
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  13. Poop Head

    Poop Head Poster formerly known as kingdad

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    Why don't you just put me on ignore, because I'm only replying to you because you started overanalyzing every little thing I said because YOU took issue with it. I don't have a problem, you do. I could have chosen to ignore you entirely but I didn't. I tried to dismiss you quickly though and you seemed to take exception to that by continuing on picking apart everything I said, again. When someone does that continuously, I think it's pretty immature, which is why I said you were being childish. Do you expect to be able to needle someone incessantly while throwing in slightly veiled insults with them keeping their composure? Surely you're not that socially inept.

    I did tell you to "pound salt" and I mean it in the most sincere way possible. I'm not trying to pick a fight, I was trying to avoid one but you kept nagging on and on. You can only push at someone so much before they tell you to stop and that was essentially what I did. If you can't see that or didn't take it that way, maybe I should have been clearer. I thought saying I didn't need to justify what I said to you was enough but you continued to seek that justification and needle on.
     
  14. Poop Head

    Poop Head Poster formerly known as kingdad

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    I don't think they need to follow the Hornet's lead but I wouldn't be disappointed if they did. Have the jerseys and court design for this season already get released? I know some teams have released theirs but I wasn't sure if the Suns had yet.
     
  15. Chaplin

    Chaplin Better off silent

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    As far as I know, the jerseys aren’t changing this year. At least, the bastion of prognostication, NBA 2K 2019, bears that out. :)
     
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