Rodney Hudson - returns after holding out?

Chopper0080

2021 - Prove It
Joined
May 15, 2002
Posts
21,677
Reaction score
19,865
Location
Colorado
Keim builds a team like I did back when I was a little kid playing Madden. Ignoring the trenches & putting all your chips on the skill positions cause they’re the most flashy.
To be fair, the Cardinals are not the only team in the NFL that has this philosophy. That said, most of the other teams tend to be terrible over time as well.
 

Jetstream Green

Kool Aid with a touch of vodka
Joined
Feb 5, 2003
Posts
27,626
Reaction score
12,903
Location
San Antonio, Texas
I don't doubt they have a plan. I just question if it's a good plan. Our OL, especially considering depth, was nowhere near good enough last season. Our OL looks to be significantly worse this season. Argh!
The problem with depth on the OL, as we all know, is that it really is about five acting as one being affected by one loss more than any other group on the field where it's the epitome of 'you are only as strong as your weakest link'. If you do not depth at all five positions, then you have no depth at all
 

Chopper0080

2021 - Prove It
Joined
May 15, 2002
Posts
21,677
Reaction score
19,865
Location
Colorado
The problem with depth on the OL, as we all know, is that it really is about five acting as one being affected by one loss more than any other group on the field where it's the epitome of 'you are only as strong as your weakest link'. If you do not depth at all five positions, then you have no depth at all
The problems are the lack of resources used as well as the effectiveness of those resources. We used a 1st rounder on a LT and while it was bumpy for a bit, it turned into a quality starter. We spent a nice contract on a vet (only 27) OL in Pugh and once we got him to his best position, he has been a decent starter. Now, we spend on a 30+ C and put him in a different offense, he doesn't like it. 3rd round picks or later, haven't developed into anything at all. Beachum has been a nice vet budget signing, but his play is close to his compensation that top tier.

And while outside of RG, we have an ok group of starters, none of those players is good enough to compensate for the trash players behind them. Also, when guys are showing inclinations to retire, instead of using the appropriate assets to replace them, we try to convince them to come back and hope they do.

It's like Will Hernandez. He isn't a bad player to sign and compete with a player like Pugh but he is a nightmare when he doesn't have to compete with anyone because the rest are so bad.
 

Chopper0080

2021 - Prove It
Joined
May 15, 2002
Posts
21,677
Reaction score
19,865
Location
Colorado
Josh Jones is an example of a good plan with a bad result. We spent a 3rd rounder on a tackle to compete with Beachum who is an NFL average OT. That is a good plan. It hasn't worked and we should have made additional moves since instead of this waiting game or adding late round and/or undrafted players. Did we waste a 3rd rounder, yes. But that doesn't mean adding a higher draft pick to compete wasn't the right move.

Same goes for Pugh and Humphries and Hudson. The competition behind them is garbage because instead of investing solid assets into young players we have invested minimum dollars and minimum draft capital.

This is just another example of ok individual moves but a terrible collection of moves. Giving Joshua Miles a couple years to develop at LT behind Humphries isn't bad, but when the other backups are equally poor/developmental, that's not a good plan.

Taking a 6th round OG and trying to convert him to C isn't a bad move but it is a terrible plan when your starting C is 30+ and contemplating retirement.
 

gmabel830

It's football season!!
Joined
May 8, 2011
Posts
10,786
Reaction score
4,103
Location
Gilbert, Arizona
Josh Jones is an example of a good plan with a bad result. We spent a 3rd rounder on a tackle to compete with Beachum who is an NFL average OT. That is a good plan. It hasn't worked and we should have made additional moves since instead of this waiting game or adding late round and/or undrafted players. Did we waste a 3rd rounder, yes. But that doesn't mean adding a higher draft pick to compete wasn't the right move.

Same goes for Pugh and Humphries and Hudson. The competition behind them is garbage because instead of investing solid assets into young players we have invested minimum dollars and minimum draft capital.

This is just another example of ok individual moves but a terrible collection of moves. Giving Joshua Miles a couple years to develop at LT behind Humphries isn't bad, but when the other backups are equally poor/developmental, that's not a good plan.

Taking a 6th round OG and trying to convert him to C isn't a bad move but it is a terrible plan when your starting C is 30+ and contemplating retirement.
Hard to disagree with any of this. Agree with you on Josh Jones being a good plan with a bad result, too. It seemed like such a steal at the time.
 

Russ Smith

The Original Whizzinator
Supporting Member
Joined
May 14, 2002
Posts
75,215
Reaction score
20,538
I think the only reason Pugh even came back and didn't retire, was the opportunity for a position change. He's on record about the change extending his career. So it's probably have Pugh at Center or don't have him at all.

Luckily we run an offense that's easy on the Center because they don't have to snap in shotgun very often. Hey wait a minute are in shotgun almost every snap.

Pugh has months to practice assuming Hudson retires but if a career C like Hudson had that much trouble with it last year and so did the other guys replacing him, I have to wonder just how easy it's going to be for Pugh having never played C.
 

RON_IN_OC

https://www.ronevansrealty.com
Joined
Mar 10, 2004
Posts
14,703
Reaction score
10,080
Location
Rancho Santa Margarita, CA
Luckily we run an offense that's easy on the Center because they don't have to snap in shotgun very often. Hey wait a minute are in shotgun almost every snap.

Pugh has months to practice assuming Hudson retires but if a career C like Hudson had that much trouble with it last year and so did the other guys replacing him, I have to wonder just how easy it's going to be for Pugh having never played C.
Well, look at it this way...Pugh doesn't have any bad habits (that we know of) at Center, so if he's taught shotgun from the beginning he can adjust???????
 

Russ Smith

The Original Whizzinator
Supporting Member
Joined
May 14, 2002
Posts
75,215
Reaction score
20,538
Well, look at it this way...Pugh doesn't have any bad habits (that we know of) at Center, so if he's taught shotgun from the beginning he can adjust???????

Hopefully but I think we take for granted how hard it is to do that. I remember a guy at Cal who wound up being an NFL C for years saying people don't realize how hard it is to snap the ball accurately without looking back. You can't because if you do, the defense will just plow over you and nail the QB, running back, block the kick etc. It's why long snapping for example is such a specialized job that if you are good at it you can have a 15 year career doing just that.

Hopefully Pugh can do it but if I were the Cards it's tough, you'd be tempted to say Kyler we need you under Center more this year to help out Pugh, but at the same time you're thinking we need Pugh to get as many reps as he can at shotgun snapping.
 

cheesebeef

ASFN IDOL
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2003
Posts
77,047
Reaction score
38,290
it really does feel like offensive suicide that the plan seems to be taking a guy who had two feet out the door, pulling him back in AND making him learn a completely new position... while also leaving a big hole at his previous one.
 

Devilmaycare

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Jan 5, 2019
Posts
2,573
Reaction score
2,723
Location
Scottsdale
it really does feel like offensive suicide that the plan seems to be taking a guy who had two feet out the door, pulling him back in AND making him learn a completely new position... while also leaving a big hole at his previous one.
It's the new keimtime
 

Red on White

Hall of Famer
Joined
Dec 28, 2018
Posts
1,286
Reaction score
2,147
Location
Adelaide, Australia
We have no LG and Pugh backing up at C? Even if Hudson leaves, it's dumb, running with an old newbie center and still with a big LG hole. I mean, there's no good POV here.

If it were have Pugh at C or not have him at all, why wouldn't Keim have just replaced him earlier in the offseason?
Felt like there was a sense of urgency last season.

Pressure on to deliver results.

Added JJ, Hudson, Conner. After Maxx Williams got injured instantly signed a high quality replacement.

Now that Keim and Kliff have lengthy contracts behind them the same sense of urgency doesn't seem to be there?

A bit like the reverse of a player stepping up in the final year of their contract or when on a "prove it" deal. GM/Coach both comfortable in their position. Poor results this season can be explained away - Gladney, Hudson unexpectedly retiring, D Hop suspension.

Still a couple of months before the season starts of course. Fingers crossed there are moves afoot
 

Syracusecards

DA's pass went that way
Joined
Oct 27, 2004
Posts
3,234
Reaction score
2,191
Hopefully but I think we take for granted how hard it is to do that. I remember a guy at Cal who wound up being an NFL C for years saying people don't realize how hard it is to snap the ball accurately without looking back. You can't because if you do, the defense will just plow over you and nail the QB, running back, block the kick etc. It's why long snapping for example is such a specialized job that if you are good at it you can have a 15 year career doing just that.

Hopefully Pugh can do it but if I were the Cards it's tough, you'd be tempted to say Kyler we need you under Center more this year to help out Pugh, but at the same time you're thinking we need Pugh to get as many reps as he can at shotgun snapping.
Maybe we should see how Aaron Brewer would do at Center…lol
 

Russ Smith

The Original Whizzinator
Supporting Member
Joined
May 14, 2002
Posts
75,215
Reaction score
20,538
Maybe we should see how Aaron Brewer would do at Center…lol

Way too small but he's a perfect example of how hard longer snaps are, The shotgun snaps aren't as long as the ones on FG's and XP's but still were a problem for every C we had last year.

Honestly if that's our offense you can argue we should draft C's from schools who run that offense just so we are constantly looking at guys who can snap. But my argument continues to be Kliff needs to put Kyler under C at least some of the time, if Kyler doesn't like it he's about to get an enormous amount of money so he can learn to like it
 

BritCard

ASFN Icon
Joined
Jan 10, 2020
Posts
11,578
Reaction score
16,348
Location
UK
Keim builds a team like I did back when I was a little kid playing Madden. Ignoring the trenches & putting all your chips on the skill positions cause they’re the most flashy.

I don't think that's always been the case. For example in the Palmer days he sighed Iupati and Veldheer and drafted Hump. Because Palmer was a statue of a QB.

I think the strategy has changed with Kyler because he is much more mobile. Defenses are less likely to pin their ears back on the pass rush due to fear of him gashing them for 20 and when he is pressured he's good at avoiding it and his passer rating under pressure is very good.

So with limited resources I believe they made the decision to prioritize skill positions over the O line.
 

Stout

Hold onto the ball, Murray!
Joined
Dec 30, 2002
Posts
31,210
Reaction score
9,024
Location
Pittsburgh, PA--Enemy territory!
I don't think that's always been the case. For example in the Palmer days he sighed Iupati and Veldheer and drafted Hump. Because Palmer was a statue of a QB.

I think the strategy has changed with Kyler because he is much more mobile. Defenses are less likely to pin their ears back on the pass rush due to fear of him gashing them for 20 and when he is pressured he's good at avoiding it and his passer rating under pressure is very good.

So with limited resources I believe they made the decision to prioritize skill positions over the O line.
Limited resources my left foot. We have criminally ignored positions on the DL/defense AND on the OL. We have the resources to try to assemble a reasonable OL as well as the skill positions. It's not like we can only focus on one part of one side of the team--skill positions on offense only. I could buy if it was an either/or for offense or defense, but we've neglected defense AND are neglecting the OL. The "we don't have the resources" excuse doesn't fly at all when you're trying to say we can only focus on 1/2 of the offense.
 

BritCard

ASFN Icon
Joined
Jan 10, 2020
Posts
11,578
Reaction score
16,348
Location
UK
Limited resources my left foot. We have criminally ignored positions on the DL/defense AND on the OL. We have the resources to try to assemble a reasonable OL as well as the skill positions. It's not like we can only focus on one part of one side of the team--skill positions on offense only. I could buy if it was an either/or for offense or defense, but we've neglected defense AND are neglecting the OL. The "we don't have the resources" excuse doesn't fly at all when you're trying to say we can only focus on 1/2 of the offense.

Every team has limited resources. It's called the cap. Every team has to decide how they want to divide the cap money and where to focus it.

With Murray at QB it seems Keim has decided to focus less on the O line and more on skill positions.
 

juza76

ASFN Icon
Joined
Sep 5, 2009
Posts
12,440
Reaction score
7,149
Location
milan-italy
Every team has limited resources. It's called the cap. Every team has to decide how they want to divide the cap money and where to focus it.

With Murray at QB it seems Keim has decided to focus less on the O line and more on skill positions.
He is so stupid
With Murray at qb u need to make him more comfortable (he is not Josh Allen , he is scared to get hit)
 

Stout

Hold onto the ball, Murray!
Joined
Dec 30, 2002
Posts
31,210
Reaction score
9,024
Location
Pittsburgh, PA--Enemy territory!
Every team has limited resources. It's called the cap. Every team has to decide how they want to divide the cap money and where to focus it.

With Murray at QB it seems Keim has decided to focus less on the O line and more on skill positions.
Blithely blowing past my entire post. I defy you to say the cap means a team can only focus on one part of one side of the ball at a time. You won't, or you'll ignore it again, because it's silly. Nothing in the world said we couldn't also work on our OL this offseason. The team has absolutely hoarded resources and has refused to do much, let alone go for an "all in" approach, which should be the approach, given the weakness of the NFC and the fact that KM is about to become much more expensive. This "doesn't have the resources" or hard up against the cap line of excuses is just that: excuses.

We should have had no problem at least trying to do more with the OL. No excuses there.
 

cheesebeef

ASFN IDOL
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2003
Posts
77,047
Reaction score
38,290
The Cards are still 10 million under the cap: if an owner can’t even spend up to the cap, they shouldn’t be in the league.

The idea that they had to almost completely ignore the O-line, especially knowing it’s second and third most important players seeming to have both feet out the door, is criminal negligence in the NFL.
 

Chopper0080

2021 - Prove It
Joined
May 15, 2002
Posts
21,677
Reaction score
19,865
Location
Colorado
He is so stupid
With Murray at qb u need to make him more comfortable (he is not Josh Allen , he is scared to get hit)
I do think this is an underrated aspect to Kyler. It does appear that he panics very quickly and makes very poor decisions to avoid being hit. It seems to me that he would benefit more from having a better line than say Russ who is great at avoiding in the pocket or Allen who is comfortable taking a shot.
 

ASUCHRIS

ONE HEART BEAT!!!
Joined
Sep 2, 2002
Posts
10,133
Reaction score
2,929
I'd just love to know how you spend so much money for such minimal results. For a former offensive lineman, Keim doesn't know the first thing about drafting or developing them.
 

Staff online

Forum statistics

Threads
479,058
Posts
4,787,450
Members
6,159
Latest member
hatheaven
Top