Protecting Murray

[Harry]

The Cards have been widely criticized for not drafting an O-linemen who plays tackle or even guard. The question is fairly simple, what was the best way to protect their new QB? To most observers it was odd that after taking Murray, 2 of the next 3 picks went defense. To me the theory was simple, if the other team scores too many points the new QB will be constantly playing catch up. Predictably throwing every down and thereby allowing the opposing defense to just rush continuously. That would eventually exhaust the O-line and Murray. By focusing on a top corner the Cards were attempting to forestall quick scores that meant the offense never would get a chance to rest. Barring a rash of injuries this defense should be good enough to provide enough balance to the game to not overly tax Murray.

The other concern was if there was a strong pass rush, would Murray’s mobility be enough to protect him? The Cards saw 2 options to help; draft o-linemen or draft receivers. After their second pick there were no attractive o-lineman certain to provide protection. In fact before the draft the Cards had extensively added to the O-line. The Cards surveyed the situation and decided even with time there were too few targets for Murray. So they elected to go receiver which made sense looking at the pool. In fact I was truly surprised the Cards were able to assemble so many quality receivers. If pressured Murray should have plenty of options to get rid of the ball quickly. Now they must just make certain Murray knows he must protect himself.

In that regard Murray must understand this is the NFL. These opponents are bigger, faster and stronger. If he gets hit very often he will get hurt. Better to take a loss than an injury. The Cards are likely not a playoff team next year, but if (a really big if) this offense is just competitive they could be in 2020. Next year’s free agent group if not destroyed by tagging has some decent O-line prospects. The draft is favorable. Aside from the O-line upgrades the Cards lose Suggs & Swearinger. They could re-sign both. There are 2-3 decent tackles who will be available in the next draft. The point is that the Cards will be in position to contend if the offense works and Murray survives the 2019 season. So be hopeful. Don’t get carried away early. However, the Cards do appear to be on the right track.

 

[slanidrac16]

I said all along if the Cards draft Murray they really need to draft 2 good receivers. They did and maybe got a pretty good third one.

Last year the opposing defense could key on Kirk and negate any big play threat. Fitz can beat you with guile but he isn’t taking the top off the defense.

Opposing defenses will now have to account for 3 to 5 guys on every down. Let’s hope it works.

 

[MadCardDisease]

I'm no Air Raid expert but isn't one of the goals of the Air Raid to get the ball out of the hands of the QB quickly on passing plays and have the WR get YAC? If Murray gets the ball out quickly that should help the OL.

 

[CardNots]

However, the Cards do appear to be on the right track.

So, there is a chance?

 

[ARZCardinals]

Don't kid yourself -

The Cards had the worst O line in the league last year and an O line that ranks as one of the lowest in the history of the NFL.

The day you say 'the trenches' (O line and D line) don't matter is the day you officially announce you know nothing of the game of football. (not saying you are here....keep reading)

The game IS won and lost up front (every coach who's ever coached anything from pop warner to the NFL knows it). A WR can't do anything if the QB is getting hit on every throw.

Last year Rosen averaged under 2.3 seconds before being HIT....not just a guy in his face, but actual contact...meaning a guy was IN HIS FACE within 1.8 seconds.

With those numbers no QB can survive...they simply don't have time to read the WR....shoot the WR isn't even into his 5th step before the QB is having to adjust.

I like Murphy a lot, but he can't help the O line...they should have gotten the tackle from Oklahoma....who SHUT DOWN Nick Bosa when they played against one another...Murphy is a great CB, but you had a great tackle available who's gone against Bosa and he didn't just beat Bosa...he dominated him.

The only thing Keim has done to help the line is JR Sweezy. The rest are all HUGE injury concerns....you can say 'potential' till your blue in the face, but they're all HUGE risks.

With the O line they have ....Murray was the right pick....he's gonna be running for his life...and it'll slow down the D line after he gets past them 2-3 times in the first two series.

Don't kid yourself...the O line for the Cardinals currently rates as dead last in the NFL....and nothing Keim has done changes that......and you still got Aaron Donald on the other side of that fence.

Keim SHOULD have put a picture of Aaron Donald and Nick Bosa up in the draft room to remind him there are guys coming to kill his new toy.

The draft is good, but the Cards O line still is a MAJOR MAJOR problem going into the 2019-2020 season.

Cardinals may have a diamond at quarterback, but they're choosing to put up a paper fence to protect it.

 

[BullheadCardFan]

The Oline is a major concern still.

Looks like the Cardinals are hoping the new Oline coach will help. We have heard that before.

Is the new Oline coach really that good?

 

[kerouac9]

The Cards had the worst O line in the league last year and an O line that ranks as one of the lowest in the history of the NFL.

#fake

Our OL was actually, somehow, above average in run blocking (I'm guessing this is situational because we didn't run very often) and only 26th in preventing sacks last year. At least according to FootballOutsdiers' analysis.

 

[40yearfan]

The Cards have been widely criticized for not drafting an O-linemen who plays tackle or even guard. The question is fairly simple, what was the best way to protect their new QB? To most observers it was odd that after taking Murray, 2 of the next 3 picks went defense. To me the theory was simple, if the other team scores too many points the new QB will be constantly playing catch up. Predictably throwing every down and thereby allowing the opposing defense to just rush continuously. That would eventually exhaust the O-line and Murray. By focusing on a top corner the Cards were attempting to forestall quick scores that meant the offense never would get a chance to rest. Barring a rash of injuries this defense should be good enough to provide enough balance to the game to not overly tax Murray.

The other concern was if there was a strong pass rush, would Murray’s mobility be enough to protect him? The Cards saw 2 options to help; draft o-linemen or draft receivers. After their second pick there were no attractive o-lineman certain to provide protection. In fact before the draft the Cards had extensively added to the O-line. The Cards surveyed the situation and decided even with time there were too few targets for Murray. So they elected to go receiver which made sense looking at the pool. In fact I was truly surprised the Cards were able to assemble so many quality receivers. If pressured Murray should have plenty of options to get rid of the ball quickly. Now they must just make certain Murray knows he must protect himself.

In that regard Murray must understand this is the NFL. These opponents are bigger, faster and stronger. If he gets hit very often he will get hurt. Better to take a loss than an injury. The Cards are likely not a playoff team next year, but if (a really big if) this offense is just competitive they could be in 2020. Next year’s free agent group if not destroyed by tagging has some decent O-line prospects. The draft is favorable. Aside from the O-line upgrades the Cards lose Suggs & Swearinger. They could re-sign both. There are 2-3 decent tackles who will be available in the next draft. The point is that the Cards will be in position to contend if the offense works and Murray survives the 2019 season. So be hopeful. Don’t get carried away early. However, the Cards do appear to be on the right track.

Good post Harry with lots of pertinent information. Thanks.

 

[slanidrac16]

Didnt help that our offense was like vanilla ice cream with no threats to speak of. Defense are not going to simply pin their ears back and come after Murray. They are going to half to respect the bubble screens, jet sweeps and rpo’s. That alone will buy this o- line a little time.

They are also going to have to worry about contain with Murray. Last year was “ I’ll meet you at the qb” mentality.

I’m am not disregarding the o - line. I just believe with the speed we have acquired and the diversity in play calling and design that it’s not all doom and gloom.

 

[Russ Smith]

Also don't forget one of the best ways to protect him is the threat of a run game. WIth DJ and a QB who can move, they're going to have to dedicate one defender on most run downs to spy Murray in case he keeps the ball. over the course of a game having 1 less defender initially involved in the run game or play action pass game will make a big difference.

It's why Seattle seems to find mailmen and Amazon drivers and turn them into good RB's, they almost always have 1 less defender over concern of Russell Wilson.

 

[kerouac9]

Also don't forget one of the best ways to protect him is the threat of a run game. WIth DJ and a QB who can move, they're going to have to dedicate one defender on most run downs to spy Murray in case he keeps the ball. over the course of a game having 1 less defender initially involved in the run game or play action pass game will make a big difference.

It's why Seattle seems to find mailmen and Amazon drivers and turn them into good RB's, they almost always have 1 less defender over concern of Russell Wilson.

Who are you talking about, exactly? The Seahawks had an 1100 yard rusher last season in Chris Carson, but before that they're running attack was relatively toothless.

People rarely spy in the NFL, because losing a defender in coverage has a much higher cost than losing track of a running QB. Mostly, you can force teams to play more zone, but most teams just require their DL to stay in their lanes.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I think you are overthinking this. The cardinals simply stuck to their board rankings and took the best player on their board. It just so happens that the best player on their board on their 2nd and 4th picks were defensive players. They used free agency to address the line and assuming the line stays healthy(ish) this year than they should be significantly improved over last season.

 

[Russ Smith]

Who are you talking about, exactly? The Seahawks had an 1100 yard rusher last season in Chris Carson, but before that they're running attack was relatively toothless.

People rarely spy in the NFL, because losing a defender in coverage has a much higher cost than losing track of a running QB. Mostly, you can force teams to play more zone, but most teams just require their DL to stay in their lanes.

2015 Rawls 5.6 YPC almost 150 carries. Lynch could barely walk that year with back problems and still got almost 4 YPC. Didn't work the next year even Wilson was only 4YPC, not sure what was the case there. So I guess to be fair I overstated it but I definitely think they've done pretty well with low or undrafted RB's in large part because Wilson is so good but maybe that's just opinion not supported by the data.

I definitely don't want Murray rushing for nearly 600 yards which Wilson did in 2017.

 

[kerouac9]

2015 Rawls 5.6 YPC almost 150 carries. Lynch could barely walk that year with back problems and still got almost 4 YPC. Didn't work the next year even Wilson was only 4YPC, not sure what was the case there. So I guess to be fair I overstated it but I definitely think they've done pretty well with low or undrafted RB's in large part because Wilson is so good but maybe that's just opinion not supported by the data.

I definitely don't want Murray rushing for nearly 600 yards which Wilson did in 2017.

If Murray isn't going t rush for at least 600 yards, why did we bother drafting him? 40 yards per game isn't much, and if you're not rushing for more than that, you don't really establish the threat to run that keeps defenses honest.

TBH, most teams have a very fine running game with late-round and undrafted backs. THat's why it so dumb that David Johnson has the team's fourth-highest cap number in 2019.

 

[Krangodnzr]

2015 Rawls 5.6 YPC almost 150 carries. Lynch could barely walk that year with back problems and still got almost 4 YPC. Didn't work the next year even Wilson was only 4YPC, not sure what was the case there. So I guess to be fair I overstated it but I definitely think they've done pretty well with low or undrafted RB's in large part because Wilson is so good but maybe that's just opinion not supported by the data.

I definitely don't want Murray rushing for nearly 600 yards which Wilson did in 2017.

If Murray isn't going t rush for at least 600 yards, why did we bother drafting him? 40 yards per game isn't much, and if you're not rushing for more than that, you don't really establish the threat to run that keeps defenses honest.

TBH, most teams have a very fine running game with late-round and undrafted backs. THat's why it so dumb that David Johnson has the team's fourth-highest cap number in 2019.

I think Kerouac is right; Murray should have at least 600 yards to really make it worth it.

For some reason, the Cardinals have been pretty bad at identifying RBs along with OL. Other teams seem to find a UDFA every year that I'm intrigued by, the Cardinals bring in scrubs like William Powell, who you would be embarrassed to have as your starter at Kentucky Livestock Technical College.

 

[PJ1]

May not like the moves we made to address the OL in this offseason but they did make some. The draft couldn't take care of everything. We were 3-13. Many holes and issues to resolve.

 

[Russ Smith]

If Murray isn't going t rush for at least 600 yards, why did we bother drafting him? 40 yards per game isn't much, and if you're not rushing for more than that, you don't really establish the threat to run that keeps defenses honest.

TBH, most teams have a very fine running game with late-round and undrafted backs. THat's why it so dumb that David Johnson has the team's fourth-highest cap number in 2019.

yes but not without spending some money on the OL. For awhile there the Seahawks spent most of their money on defense because Wilson was a bargain and they weren't spending on the offense at all.

I want my QB to run only when he has to, to get first downs, get out of bounds or get down. I don't know what the actual cutoff is but 600 seems too high to me that was over 100 actual runs, I don't want my QB running that much.

I get the idea though if what makes him special is his feet, don't neuter that. I guess I'm spoiled I want a shorter Rodgers. Aaron has never run for 400 yards, never had as many as 70 attempts. Career 5.2 YPC. Basically 250 to 300 yards a year 3-4 TDs. I get that it's unlikely Murray will be even close to Rodgers as a passer so maybe add 100 yards so he's 350 to 400 a year rushing.

It all comes down to feel, Rodgers and Wilson both have it despite Russell running more. Some of the other guys don't have it and get hurt running too much and not getting down or getting out of bounds. I'm pleasantly hopeful Murray has that feel, it looked like he did in college although obviously they were stacked on offense. I certainly don't want him running for anywhere near 1000 yards in the NFL like he did at OU.

 

[AZCrazy]

Worst position to have to start a rookie on the OL is center.
I'm pretty tired of hearing how the O Line sucked last year and we need to draft a bunch of guys to fix it.

#1) Rookies don't help your O line at all. They virtually never help that fast.
#2) Our own O line hardly played at all last year. Injuries are part of the game to be sure, but no team had to endure having its entire line gone, at the same time starting a rookie QB with a rookie HC.

We ended up having a legendarily bad offense last year, but there are lots of reasons why. We had O line starters in multiple positions in multiple games who literally were not in the NFL the week before.

Wetzel had to start 5 games for us. Holden had 2 starts. Cunningham had 6. Barksdale had 4. Vujnovich had 2. Gossett had 4. Munyer had a start. Aboushi had 6.
And our rookie C who only came in because Shipley went down in preseason had 16 starts. Zero of these people were planned on.

Drafting more rookies and throwing them in amongst the other 20 already here wouldn't affect our game nearly so much as just keeping our guys upright and playing together for a while.

 

[Krangodnzr]

May not like the moves we made to address the OL in this offseason but they did make some. The draft couldn't take care of everything. We were 3-13. Many holes and issues to resolve.

You also have to consider roster spots. The Cardinals decided to flood the OL with veterans and there just aren't a lot of positions on the OL up for grabs. Outside of an early round pick, most of the rookies don't have much of a shot to make the roster this year.

If Hump and Gilbert stay healthy, the Cardinals plan should work out. If ONE of them can stay healthy, Korey Kunningham showed that he can be a decent backup plan. The Cardinals are going to run into real issues if BOTH can't stay healthy, and what sucks, is that is a real possibility when you consider their collective histories.

 

[MadCardDisease]

If Murray isn't going t rush for at least 600 yards, why did we bother drafting him? 40 yards per game isn't much, and if you're not rushing for more than that, you don't really establish the threat to run that keeps defenses honest.

600 yards!!!!

How many QBs rush for 600 yards in a season. Hell how many rush for more than 500 yards?

 

[kerouac9]

yes but not without spending some money on the OL. For awhile there the Seahawks spent most of their money on defense because Wilson was a bargain and they weren't spending on the offense at all.

I want my QB to run only when he has to, to get first downs, get out of bounds or get down. I don't know what the actual cutoff is but 600 seems too high to me that was over 100 actual runs, I don't want my QB running that much.

I get the idea though if what makes him special is his feet, don't neuter that. I guess I'm spoiled I want a shorter Rodgers. Aaron has never run for 400 yards, never had as many as 70 attempts. Career 5.2 YPC. Basically 250 to 300 yards a year 3-4 TDs. I get that it's unlikely Murray will be even close to Rodgers as a passer so maybe add 100 yards so he's 350 to 400 a year rushing.

It all comes down to feel, Rodgers and Wilson both have it despite Russell running more. Some of the other guys don't have it and get hurt running too much and not getting down or getting out of bounds. I'm pleasantly hopeful Murray has that feel, it looked like he did in college although obviously they were stacked on offense. I certainly don't want him running for anywhere near 1000 yards in the NFL like he did at OU.

I also would like Murray to be a shorter version of (possibly) the best QB in the NFL. That would be nice.

I don't think there's much of a chance of Kingsbury running the offense that Wilson was in his first few seasons. That was a team that just pounded the rock.

I think around 100 rushes would be the target for Murray his first three years in the league. Cam rushed over 125 times in his first two seasons, and I think that's too much. 100 would be in line with Russ, Deshaun Watson and other successful Dual-threat QBs.

 

[kerouac9]

600 yards!!!!

How many QBs rush for 600 yards in a season. Hell how many rush for more than 500 yards?

Deshaun Watson had 550 yards rushing last year and his back was so injured he couldn't fly to road games. He had 269 yards (nice) in 6 starts as a rookie.

Colin Kaepernick had 415 rushing yards after taking over for Alex Smith with seven games left in his rookie season. He rushed for 500+ yards in each of the two seasons that followed.

Russell Wilson has rushed for 500+ yard in 4 of his 7 NFL seasons, including 849 yards in his third year.

Josh Allen rushed for 631 yards last year. That is 11 starts.

Cam Newton has rushed for 600+ yards in half his NFL seasons.

Maybe more exclamation points would substitute for performing the research to answer your own questions.

 

[Russ Smith]

I also would like Murray to be a shorter version of (possibly) the best QB in the NFL. That would be nice.

I don't think there's much of a chance of Kingsbury running the offense that Wilson was in his first few seasons. That was a team that just pounded the rock.

I think around 100 rushes would be the target for Murray his first three years in the league. Cam rushed over 125 times in his first two seasons, and I think that's too much. 100 would be in line with Russ, Deshaun Watson and other successful Dual-threat QBs.

I'm not saying he will be Rodgers I'm just saying that's what I want. I realize that's unrealistic but what we did this year was pretty out there. new coach, draft a QB 1st overall right after 10th the year before. So you pretty much need that QB to be really special. Not right away, but he needs to be a pro bowl caliber QB for the next 8-10 years to justify what we did. When you look at all the picks we moved to wind up with Andy Isabella(via Rosen) you really need Murray to be great.

You are convincing me my rush totals area bit too low though. Using Newton is kind of tough he's 50 pounds bigger than Murray but you are probably right my totals are too low.

 

[MadCardDisease]

Deshaun Watson had 550 yards rushing last year and his back was so injured he couldn't fly to road games. He had 269 yards (nice) in 6 starts as a rookie.

Colin Kaepernick had 415 rushing yards after taking over for Alex Smith with seven games left in his rookie season. He rushed for 500+ yards in each of the two seasons that followed.

Russell Wilson has rushed for 500+ yard in 4 of his 7 NFL seasons, including 849 yards in his third year.

Josh Allen rushed for 631 yards last year. That is 11 starts.

Cam Newton has rushed for 600+ yards in half his NFL seasons.

Maybe more exclamation points would substitute for performing the research to answer your own questions.

So basically 5 QBs over the last decade rushed for at least 500 yards and those that did ended up missing games due to injury. However if Murray doesn't rush for 600 yards he is a Bust of a pick?

Murray will get his yards rushing but I would much rather see him spreading the ball around and letting his WRs/RBs rack up the yards. The less hits that he takes the better IMO. Holding him to some artificial rushing stat number seems pointless.

 

[kerouac9]

So basically 5 QBs over the last decade rushed for at least 500 yards and those that did ended up missing games due to injury. However if Murray doesn't rush for 600 yards he is a Bust of a pick?

Murray will get his yards rushing but I would much rather see him spreading the ball around and letting his WRs/RBs rack up the yards. The less hits that he takes the better IMO. Holding him to some artificial rushing stat number seems pointless.

I'll appreciate you not putting words in my mouth. Holding him to the same standard as Josh Allen as a rookie doesn't seem out of line.