Prediction: Vance will be gone after this year

DVontel

ASFN Addict
Joined
Jan 28, 2015
Posts
9,330
Reaction score
12,631
Basically it is on both of them.
I would believe this if Keim wasn’t making these same questionable picks before Vance got here.

I was with you on Vance at first, but to see Vance actually turn a mediocre defense on paper to a solid one, I had to do a 180 on him.

I would like to see what he would do if he had a GM that valued positions that mattered more than ILBs.
 

phillycard

ASFN Addict
Joined
Aug 22, 2003
Posts
6,042
Reaction score
1,534
Location
The 215
People keep underrating and dismissing Vance. Yet he's delivered 2 good defenses the last 2 years. Considerably better than the offense per DVOA. I don't see him going anywhere unless hired away.

Vance had Simmons forced on him and is now trying to correct the mistake of making him an ILB. I said from day 1 he was a safety and didn't have the instincts to play inside backer.

I'm not mad at Vance. I'm mad at the Org for drafting another athletic hybrid and wasting 2 years trying to make him something he never was. They never learn.
Post O' the day!!!!!!! Vance has his issues, but my goodness can we all as a collective fanbase wait until we at least see some semblance of live action before we start readying the chopping block??!!
 

Minski

Hall of Famer
Joined
Aug 25, 2017
Posts
1,377
Reaction score
2,090
Location
Gloucester, UK
People have some pretty short memories here. Go back and watch last seasons D play. Choked as much as the offence down the stretch. VJ is average at best, struggles to develop young players, doesn’t scheme for strengths and drops frickin’ Zach Allen into coverage. I was really hoping he was going to get the Miami job for the compensatory pick… all IMHO of course.
 

Stout

Hold onto the ball, Murray!
Joined
Dec 30, 2002
Posts
31,242
Reaction score
9,051
Location
Pittsburgh, PA--Enemy territory!
People have some pretty short memories here. Go back and watch last seasons D play. Choked as much as the offence down the stretch. VJ is average at best, struggles to develop young players, doesn’t scheme for strengths and drops frickin’ Zach Allen into coverage. I was really hoping he was going to get the Miami job for the compensatory pick… all IMHO of course.
Plus his biggest weakness is stubbornness to a fault. He has a certain defensive scheme. I hate it, but fine, it does get some results. When the game shows him for 3 quarters that it is not working, he pulls a Ken Whisenhunt and goes with a "the system works" approach. Dude has no idea how to counter it when he gets gashed in the running game. None. All an opposing team needs to do is commit to the run, and he's cooked.
 

AZ Native

Living is Easy with Eyes Closed
Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2007
Posts
13,852
Reaction score
5,216
Location
Cave Creek
Plus his biggest weakness is stubbornness to a fault. He has a certain defensive scheme. I hate it, but fine, it does get some results. When the game shows him for 3 quarters that it is not working, he pulls a Ken Whisenhunt and goes with a "the system works" approach. Dude has no idea how to counter it when he gets gashed in the running game. None. All an opposing team needs to do is commit to the run, and he's cooked.
Exactly. He is awful at in-game adjustments.
 

DVontel

ASFN Addict
Joined
Jan 28, 2015
Posts
9,330
Reaction score
12,631
Better talent up front would definitely help--it's criminal the neglect Keim has undertaken there. Still, his bend but don't break approach de-emphasizes run defense. And he sticks to that when it's crushing the D.
It’s not like he has a choice to be anything but a bend-don’t-break defense.

Everyone here wants a swarming & lockdown defense. I do, too. Problem is, he doesn’t have the talent to make that functional. You take Watt off that front….we would have a bottom 5 front in the league. We have a ILB who doesn’t have ILB instincts. We have another ILB who is playing an entirely different scheme than he college. Hell, if we do play the run, we’ll just get burnt over the top cause we don’t have the pass-rush to get there.


Even with you & others agreeing Keim has lacked the investment on the front 4, I still believe you guys are underrating at just how bad of a Keim has left Vance in.

It’s not like Vance has a choice between bend & break or swarming, he is being FORCED to the former cause he doesn’t have the talent to do the latter.
 

Shane

Current STAR
Super Moderator
Moderator
Supporting Member
Joined
May 13, 2002
Posts
60,829
Reaction score
18,814
Location
Las Vegas
It’s not like he has a choice to be anything but a bend-don’t-break defense.

Everyone here wants a swarming & lockdown defense. I do, too. Problem is, he doesn’t have the talent to make that functional. You take Watt off that front….we would have a bottom 5 front in the league. We have a ILB who doesn’t have ILB instincts. We have another ILB who is playing an entirely different scheme than he college. Hell, if we do play the run, we’ll just get burnt over the top cause we don’t have the pass-rush to get there.


Even with you & others agreeing Keim has lacked the investment on the front 4, I still believe you guys are underrating at just how bad of a Keim has left Vance in.

It’s not like Vance has a choice between bend & break or swarming, he is being FORCED to the former cause he doesn’t have the talent to do the latter.
Even with Watt I’d say we’re bottom 5 as it stands
 

reebokalone2001

All Star
Joined
Jul 27, 2021
Posts
508
Reaction score
500
Location
Mesa, Arizona
they sure have drafted personnel for a 4-3

i suppose a base could be:

Watt- DT-DT-Zach Allen, with Simmons, Vigil and Collins as your Will, Mike and Sam for running downs.

if a team goes 11 personnel -- then one of the DTs comes off, Golden comes in, Allen slides inside.

dime one of Vigil or Collins comes out, third CB comes in
I am not bashing your idea which, IMO, is a much better plan for Simmons and Collins than playing them at 3-4 ILB. However, that would be another hard blow on Keim's draft that, instead of drafting a single DT, neither of his third-round picks (Thomas nor Sanders will) will see the field. I don't know if the Cardinals are able to take it. Plus I don't see us having two effective DTs for a 4-3 defense.

Overall, I don't see Keim has a clear mind about a defense scheme for which he drafts. About half of his defense drafts are 3-4 defense players and another half are 4-3 defense players. I actually don't know who to blame between Keim and VJ. Did they not communicate about the defense needs at all, or did Keim just plainly shut VJ down by ignoring his inputs?
 

Chopper0080

2021 - Prove It
Joined
May 15, 2002
Posts
21,685
Reaction score
19,879
Location
Colorado
It’s not like he has a choice to be anything but a bend-don’t-break defense.

Everyone here wants a swarming & lockdown defense. I do, too. Problem is, he doesn’t have the talent to make that functional. You take Watt off that front….we would have a bottom 5 front in the league. We have a ILB who doesn’t have ILB instincts. We have another ILB who is playing an entirely different scheme than he college. Hell, if we do play the run, we’ll just get burnt over the top cause we don’t have the pass-rush to get there.


Even with you & others agreeing Keim has lacked the investment on the front 4, I still believe you guys are underrating at just how bad of a Keim has left Vance in.

It’s not like Vance has a choice between bend & break or swarming, he is being FORCED to the former cause he doesn’t have the talent to do the latter.
Meh. I feel this is a very similar situation in Denver. The big difference is the secondary. The rest is pretty similar. And Denver did not pursue big name defensive lineman. Vance is a very traditional front guy. Do your job and will sacrifice talent for consistency. Same complaints with dropping Von into coverage as Chandler
 

Jetstream Green

Kool Aid with a touch of vodka
Joined
Feb 5, 2003
Posts
27,628
Reaction score
12,905
Location
San Antonio, Texas
I think Vance has really come along as a coach in general since his time at Denver, my point... I think he is ready now to be a very good head coach, though that remains to be seen, since the NFL is now gravitating towards offensive minded coaches in a league all about scoring
 
Top