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BritCard

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Rondale Moore - 526 snaps.
Zaven Collins - 220 snaps.
"I've seen enough to be confident these guys are gonna be stars."

Marco Wilson - 748 defensive snaps.
"Just haven't seen enough of this guy."

:rolleyes:

Yeah that's not what I said though is it? You can't even quote me correctly. If you're going to quote someone to try make a point at least get it right.

I didn't say seen enough OF. I said seen enough FROM. It's not about quantity. I even said "saw enough in flashes".

So just to be clear, while I saw more of Marco Wilson I didn't see enough from him that impressed me. From both Collins and Moore I saw enough good plays to feel confident that they have the talent after adjusting their rookie year.

I've now had to write about 5 messages to defend the simple post of "Zaven Collins is going to be good this year". This board is getting like Twitter. People taking the simplist things, twisting them and misquoting or purposefully misrepresenting them to try win some imaginary point.

And it's always the same 2-3 people.
 
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I am hoping Simmons turns into that stud he looks like at times and becomes a defensive star. I have to say I was nervous about the smaller school pick in Collins like it was taking a big chance and Keim reached. I hope he becomes a perennial all pro but I'm not seeing anything but yet another potential 1st round bust. Hopefully the light comes on for him. He does look the part with his athleticism and size. It's from the neck up that will determine what happens. The fact that Vigil was signed could indicate a real problem calling plays but not necessarily. It'll have to play itself out in camp.
 

BritCard

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You think you saw more from collins - a dude by his own confession practiced awfully and couldn’t grasp the mental side of the game - who couldn’t see the field than Wilson? Okay. Says a lot . . .

See, you can't even quote what he said correctly. He never said he "Practiced awfully". He said he had some bad practices as an explanation, combines with 2 shoulder injuries, as to why he lost playing time last year.

It's not about the number of snaps, it's about what I saw in the snaps they did play.
 

Chopper0080

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Imagine investing premium capital for Inside Linebackers only for both of them to be busts.
I will see this and raise you...imagine investing premium capital for players only to use them in a completely different way than they were successful in college.
 

Chopper0080

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See, you can't even quote what he said correctly. He never said he "Practiced awfully". He said he had some bad practices as an explanation, combines with 2 shoulder injuries, as to why he lost playing time last year.

It's not about the number of snaps, it's about what I saw in the snaps they did play.
And I think to everyone's point, I don't think you saw what you think you saw. He totaled 220 snaps in the season and produced 13 solo tackles, 1 TFL, and 3 PDs. It's not like Gardeck who was super productive in his limited snaps in 2020. Collins had limited snaps and didn't produce.

I understand that you are hopeful but please recognize that there is nothing that has been demonstrated on the field so far that backs up that hope. Nothing. And that nothing is what we have to go off of if we are projecting growth. It also doesn't help that his DC wants traditional read/react ILBs and Collins was productive in college by playing OLB in a 3-3-5 base defense. So he played off-ball but did not have traditional MLB responsibilities which is what Vance is asking him to do now.
 

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And I think to everyone's point, I don't think you saw what you think you saw. He totaled 220 snaps in the season and produced 13 solo tackles, 1 TFL, and 3 PDs. It's not like Gardeck who was super productive in his limited snaps in 2020. Collins had limited snaps and didn't produce.

I understand that you are hopeful but please recognize that there is nothing that has been demonstrated on the field so far that backs up that hope. Nothing. And that nothing is what we have to go off of if we are projecting growth. It also doesn't help that his DC wants traditional read/react ILBs and Collins was productive in college by playing OLB in a 3-3-5 base defense. So he played off-ball but did not have traditional MLB responsibilities which is what Vance is asking him to do now.
This.
 

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See, you can't even quote what he said correctly. He never said he "Practiced awfully". He said he had some bad practices as an explanation, combines with 2 shoulder injuries, as to why he lost playing time last year.

It's not about the number of snaps, it's about what I saw in the snaps they did play.
And he said he didn't and doesn't have the mental aspect of the game down. He may not be able to call plays in his second year. His second year!

When you assert the opinion that Collins will be good this year, it's logical for posters to argue with that opinion, because he hasn't shown that he can be. Not yet. Maybe you saw some flashes the size of a matchhead spark, but most of the board didn't.
 

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And he said he didn't and doesn't have the mental aspect of the game down. He may not be able to call plays in his second year. His second year!

When you assert the opinion that Collins will be good this year, it's logical for posters to argue with that opinion, because he hasn't shown that he can be. Not yet. Maybe you saw some flashes the size of a matchhead spark, but most of the board didn't.

Yeah, except nobody has argued the opinion. Not initially anyway.

Arguing the opinion would be saying "I didn't see that". Rather than the multiple times people have made personal digs.
 

Chopper0080

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This is going to sound spicier than it should, but Zaven Collins heading into year 2 is nearly identical to Andy Isabella heading into year 2. Isabella had 150 offensive snaps where he didn't show much, reports of his struggles to adapt his rookie year but was also drafted high and had nice reported athletic numbers. Both from smaller schools and both being asked to do something different than what they did in college.
 

kerouac9

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This is going to sound spicier than it should, but Zaven Collins heading into year 2 is nearly identical to Andy Isabella heading into year 2. Isabella had 150 offensive snaps where he didn't show much, reports of his struggles to adapt his rookie year but was also drafted high and had nice reported athletic numbers. Both from smaller schools and both being asked to do something different than what they did in college.
Oof.
 

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I will see this and raise you...imagine investing premium capital for players only to use them in a completely different way than they were successful in college.
At some point, you have to be able outperform the scheme.

I repeated this a lot, but I don’t think there’s a successful way for Isaiah to be used.
 

football karma

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both being asked to do something different than what they did in college.
what is diff for Collins? calling the D? was he a OLB in college? ( i know some draft stuff had him projected as a 4-3 SAM)
 

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At some point, you have to be able outperform the scheme.

I repeated this a lot, but I don’t think there’s a successful way for Isaiah to be used.
the only thing i can imagine on hearing the Isiah is practicing with the safeties is that the new Cardinal base defense is a 3-3-5, with three safeties in the "5"
 

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what is diff for Collins? calling the D? was he a OLB in college? ( i know some draft stuff had him projected as a 4-3 SAM)
I've posted this before, but here's the Football Outsiders' pre-draft breakdown on Collins and in most of the plays he's on the outside: https://www.footballoutsiders.com/draft-film-room/2021/futures-tulsa-lb-zaven-collins

The problem with all of these gadget players (Budda, Collins, Simmons, maybe Sanders now) is that you have to tailor so much of your defense to take advantage of what they can do well, which puts stress on everyone else.

I think Vance just wants a bunch of B- football guys.
 

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