Oh What a Night

Phrazbit

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I know, it sounds crazy!

It's not a stat that I can point to but rather just my opinion in watching them.

I felt like Fields was about to make plays/making plays while Kyler was trying not to lose.

Pocket presence, decision making, playmaking, etc.

Fields threw the INT a tad late or that game is a blowout start to finish (21-0 and then 31-10).

What is this from a top 6 paid NFL QB?

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0-7 on sideline throws. Woof. He used to be good at those.

I'm sure having guys like Fitz and Hopkins helped on those, but Kyler was throwing 6 feet over their heads and 'suicide' balls.

Other than surviving the game healthy, that looks like a Kevin Kolb spray chart. Bunch of empty fluff.
 

Phrazbit

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Now wait a minute... "Fields was clearly the better QB"?

Fields was 15/27 (56%), 170 yards, 1 TD and 1 INT. With a pure passer rating of 71.5

And he had all ******* day to throw ball on about 12 of those drop backs. I mean there wasn't a Cardinal pass rusher within 15 yards of him.

And he still threw a horrific Q4 interception that kept the Cardinals in the game!

Murray was 24/38 (63%, still not good enough but trending better) 230 yards, 2 TDs, no INTs with a pure passer rating of 97.5, with above-average pass rush pressure.

It what universe was Justin Fields "clearly the better QB"?

Clearly the better QB?

How many points did CHI get for Fields' poise and control? Or for his footwork or pocket presence?

Wow. Come on man. You're better than that.

The new-ish QBR stat factors in situation and field position. You don't get a cookie for throwing a 4 yard pass on 3rd and 8, things like that, you do get high marks for running for a first and making throws in the red zone, you also get down graded for bad sacks.

The stat tops out at 100 and 50 is league average.

Fields was a rather solid 65.4 yesterday.

Kyler was a putrid 19.8.
 

Red Bird

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Couldn’t disagree more on the idea of taking Maye.
Because of the player? Or because of the cap ramifications from moving Murray? Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought one of the reasons the new regime cleared cap space was to leave themselves room if they decided they wanted to move on from K1?
 

Cheesebeef

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Better bet that NONE of those sideline passes would have been incompletions with MHJ. If only half of those passes were caught, we would have extended 3-4 drives. That could result in 14-21 more points. That’s why it’s truly devastating for any offense to not have a SINGLE legit WR on the field.

Lol… MHJ is 6’4 not 7’6.
 

Crimson Warrior

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The new-ish QBR stat factors in situation and field position. You don't get a cookie for throwing a 4 yard pass on 3rd and 8, things like that, you do get high marks for running for a first and making throws in the red zone, you also get down graded for bad sacks.

The stat tops out at 100 and 50 is league average.

Fields was a rather solid 65.4 yesterday.

Kyler was a putrid 19.8.

Yeah Fields ran right through our defense like it was swiss cheese. Big shocker there.

And did Petzing call a lot of runs for K1? No, he didn't.

Of course Fields out-QBR'ed Murray yesterday.

So Pharzbit, going back to the original discussion. From a pure passing standpoint, K1 outproduced Fields by a pretty wide margin.
 

Phrazbit

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Yeah Fields ran right through our defense like it was swiss cheese. Big shocker there.

And did Petzing call a lot of runs for K1? No, he didn't.

Of course Fields out-QBR'ed Murray yesterday.

So Pharzbit, going back to the original discussion. From a pure passing standpoint, K1 outproduced Fields by a pretty wide margin.

Up until the Bears were up multiple scores in the 4th, our passing game was doing jack squat.

Situation matters, I don't care if Murray was completing some short yardage throws on long downs while the punting unit was getting loose. Even then in the 4th, the passes were still almost all dinks and dunks, only difference was that the Bears were protecting a big lead and making sure they didn't get beat over the top.

There are a lot of QBs who could have put together that meaningless fluff of a stat line.
 
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Cheesebeef

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Yeah Fields ran right through our defense like it was swiss cheese. Big shocker there.

And did Petzing call a lot of runs for K1? No, he didn't.

Of course Fields out-QBR'ed Murray yesterday.

So Pharzbit, going back to the original discussion. From a pure passing standpoint, K1 outproduced Fields by a pretty wide margin.
The argument you always make for Kyler is how special he is because he’s not just a QB, but has incredible wheels… but here Fields wheels are immaterial to how he played.

Makes sense.
 

Crimson Warrior

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I ain't advocating for Fields either.

Murray simply played a bad game.

Sigh.. and I'm not saying K1 had a great game.

I'm just saying he did okay with how the game was called and what he had available at WR.

In fact I was originally responding to someone saying Fields was the "clearly better QB" but just in the passing context.

Sure, you add in the running and Fields had the better game. No question. But I also don't think (and I could be wrong) that we're running Murray as much as we will when were seriously trying to win games.

Anyway, sorry if I got a little chippy man. Being 3-12 sucks bad. Hope you had a good holiday season.
 
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GatorAZ

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Now wait a minute... "Fields was clearly the better QB"?

Fields was 15/27 (56%), 170 yards, 1 TD and 1 INT. With a pure passer rating of 71.5

And he had all ******* day to throw ball on about 12 of those drop backs. I mean there wasn't a Cardinal pass rusher within 15 yards of him.

And he still threw a horrific Q4 interception that kept the Cardinals in the game!

Murray was 24/38 (63%, still not good enough but trending better) 230 yards, 2 TDs, no INTs with a pure passer rating of 97.5, with above-average pass rush pressure.

It what universe was Justin Fields "clearly the better QB"?

Clearly the better QB?

How many points did CHI get for Fields' poise and control? Or for his footwork or pocket presence?

Wow. Come on man. You're better than that.

Stats are nice but at no point did Kyler look like a 250 million dollar game changer.
 

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I agree there are multiple ways to skin the cat.

My hope is that the Cardinals embrace a value based approach to team building. The Cardinals mostly followed this approach last draft, taking a tackle first, then edge, then CB, then WR. Even taking Pappoe is a good day three gamble because it was the right spot to take an athletic LB with traits.

Free agency needs a big swing on a front seven player and they need to find a solid LG and a starting WR.
 

THESMEL

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Not sure Gannon or Monty earned any more slack than Wilkes did, we have gotten worse each week.
 

Stout

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I agree there are multiple ways to skin the cat.

My hope is that the Cardinals embrace a value based approach to team building. The Cardinals mostly followed this approach last draft, taking a tackle first, then edge, then CB, then WR. Even taking Pappoe is a good day three gamble because it was the right spot to take an athletic LB with traits.

Free agency needs a big swing on a front seven player and they need to find a solid LG and a starting WR.
This explains why you want nothing to do with MHJ.
 

Crimson Warrior

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I’ve come away from games with a wide variety of feelings. After the Bears game; however, I find myself both confused and worried. Don’t get me wrong, I’m okay that they lost.

I’m confused because I thought I was watching a preseason game. The Cards seemed to be experimenting with odd calls at odd times. They inexplicably went for 2 again, which has become some sort of odds defying strategy. They continue to play nearly useless players. I warned at draft time that Pappoe was a fine athlete who had no concept of how the game is played. He can’t tackle. He rushes up to engage OLs rather than letting the play come to him. This results in his not filling a gap and allowing his opponent to race through that gap. CB Thomas couldn’t cover a statue. Somehow Wilkinson is starting again. Moore gets less from his prodigious talent than almost any receiver I’ve ever seen. He flashes greatness, but achieves mediocrity. Cameron Thomas has oddly regressed this season. WR Wilson gets virtually no separation, yet plays ahead of Dortch, who continues to make plays with the few chances he’s given. When trailing and short on time, it often seemed they called plays designed to burn the clock. The only way to resolve my confusion is to conclude I was right all along. I’ve been maintaining Monti was aiming for a terrible record. It now seems the Cards have abandoned all subtlety. The coaching staff appears to have joined the party.

Now comes the worried part. If Murray is going to QB this team he needs to do some soul searching. It’s true he has few weapons. However, he’s got to get himself under control. When the opposing QB, whose job is in jeopardy, shows more poise than you do, you’re not getting the job done. He should watch this game tape several times, comparing the poise he displays to what Fields does. Fields has limitations and may well be replaced. However, he’s learned to use the chaos of the rush, not fight it. I’m not saying Murray panics, he just doesn’t have the right mindset. He doesn’t visualize what’s going. He fights it rather than using it. He just doesn’t get it at this point.

I think he’s been back from injury long enough to administer some tough love. Either his ego can take it or he’s not the guy. I’m not saying scream at him or threaten him. I’m saying he needs to watch film on a better way of coping with pressure and start to improve his game. Can he accept he has things to learn and apply what he sees? We all know what happens if you ignore adjusting to issues and simply hope for improvement. He has to start maximizing his talent.

Warning of coming attractions? I’m soon going to post a series of articles dissecting how to rebuild the team. I started to put it in one post(too long) but I came to believe I’d rather get us involved in an in depth analysis of the project. It’s going to be a mammoth undertaking as I think this may be the weakest roster since they moved to AZ. I’d like to urge tolerance of divergent views. This is so complex, all options should be on the table. By taking it a piece at a time, everyone can get their say. If, after it wraps up, I’ve missed an area of concern please advance it. I know it’s tough to compartmentalize but I think we’ll do better if we try to stay with the area of focus. I know they interrelate, but otherwise we’ll be all over the place. Again let’s try to give everyone a fair hearing. Please stay away from personal attacks and present reasons opposing positions.

Thanks Harry, and we'll try to get back on track.

If were talking rebuilds, I just want to give a shout out to my boy Sam Presti, who has the Thunder sitting pretty in the NBA west.

Two years ago, OKC tanked to 58 losses, but now has a roster full of young superstars and still a ton of draft capital.

Presti is a wizard. Remember that name.
 
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Harry

Harry

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This is silly. Did you hear what Fields told his OL before the game? He told them not to hold, because if they got through, the Cardinals DL was slow as $hit. Anyone could look poised and in control when you have 10 seconds to survey the field. Does that apply to the Chicago DL that was coming at Kyler? Hell no. Sweat is as good as any DLineman in the NFL, and the Bears have the #1 run D in football. The point being that Murray was facing a significantly better defense than what Fields was facing. Murray‘s Qb Rating was 98, Fields QB rating was 72.
No question the Bears have a much better DL. I still think Fields showed poise. It also occurred to me I heard the coaches want Murray to focus staying in the pocket. Nonetheless when there’s an immediate rusher you move and use their momentum against them. Fields does that well. As I watched the tape Fields immediately moved away from the breakthrough. Seemed to me the DL’s agility was a bigger issue. Murray was often quickly surrounded and lacks the power to break away. He’s got to anticipate and move until he gets a bette OL.
 

PACardsFan

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0-7 on sideline throws. Woof. He used to be good at those.

I'm sure having guys like Fitz and Hopkins helped on those, but Kyler was throwing 6 feet over their heads and 'suicide' balls.

Other than surviving the game healthy, that looks like a Kevin Kolb spray chart. Bunch of empty f

Sigh.. and I'm not saying K1 had a great game.

I'm just saying he did okay with how the game was called and what he had available at WR.

In fact I was originally responding to someone saying Fields was the "clearly better QB" but just in the passing context.

Sure, you add in the running and Fields had the better game. No question. But I also don't think (and I could be wrong) that we're running Murray as much as we will when were seriously trying to win games.

Anyway, sorry if I got a little chippy man. Being 3-12 sucks bad. Hope you had a good holiday season.
And yet no one wants to accept the fact that Fields was operating against the worst D in the league & Murray was operating against one of the best.
 

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Arz101

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No question the Bears have a much better DL. I still think Fields showed poise. It also occurred to me I heard the coaches want Murray to focus staying in the pocket. Nonetheless when there’s an immediate rusher you move and use their momentum against them. Fields does that well. As I watched the tape Fields immediately moved away from the breakthrough. Seemed to me the DL’s agility was a bigger issue. Murray was often quickly surrounded and lacks the power to break away. He’s got to anticipate and move until he gets a bette OL.

Yeah, subtility is not Murray's domain. Doubt that will ever improve.
 

PACardsFan

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No question the Bears have a much better DL. I still think Fields showed poise. It also occurred to me I heard the coaches want Murray to focus staying in the pocket. Nonetheless when there’s an immediate rusher you move and use their momentum against them. Fields does that well. As I watched the tape Fields immediately moved away from the breakthrough. Seemed to me the DL’s agility was a bigger issue. Murray was often quickly surrounded and lacks the power to break away. He’s got to anticipate and move until he gets a bette OL.
Yes, I agree. I don’t believe anyone is questioning that Fields has phenomenal running instincts and ability. He’s just a liability throwing the ball against even average defenses. He also leads the league in 4th quarter interceptions. And I agree the Cardinals are telling Murray to stay in the pocket as much as possible the remainder of this season. All part of the experimenting that Petzing and the Cardinals have done all year, but even more so since Murray returned. They are no doubt in my mind wanting to see what does and doesn’t work going into next season. JG is constantly talking reps, reps, reps. Does anyone really believe that they don’t already know what Murray can or cannot do? Silly to think they don’t. For Murray and the Cardinals as a whole, the real bullets don’t start until next season.
 

Crimson Warrior

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And yet no one wants to accept the fact that Fields was operating against the worst D in the league & Murray was operating against one of the best.

I think part of the issue is that everybody's really frustrated at this point PA, and Murray is an easy target. It's a dangerous time for the organization. Not many good things happen when you're 3-12, but plently of bad things do.

Sigh.. it's going to be a long, tough slog to opening day 2024.
 

PACardsFan

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I think part of the issue is that everybody's really frustrated at this point PA, and Murray is an easy target. It's a dangerous time for the organization. Not many good things happen when you're 3-12, but plently of bad things do.

Sigh.. it's going to be a long, tough slog to opening day 2024.
Luckily, the draft comes quickly after the SB. Exactly why I think MO needs to act on that early pick instead of trading out and accumulating more picks. Unlike last year, this is a talent rich draft. Make that first pick a defining pick, so that a frustrated fan base can have some hope that we’re making progress. I’m sure Bidwill was well aware that we were going to eat a crap sandwich this year, but knowing Michael, he’ll want to see W/L progress this year.
 

slanidrac16

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I want MHJ first and foremost, but as others have demonstrated, nearly every top receiver of the past twenty years didn't win a Super Bowl.
We need two big time WR’s on this team. Whether Kyler is our qb or not. It would be a major upgrade at a position that is completely void of talent.
To me if you can fill a hole with the best player at that position it’s a simple decision.
MHJ SHOULD help Kyler. If it doesn’t he will certainly help the next QB.
What I don’t want to see is MO become the smartest guy in the room thinking he’s got this “sleeper Wr” he can get in the 4th round ala Keim.
We have all heard BPA. This is exactly what we need to do because no matter who we take with our first three picks they should be starters from day one.
 

phillycard

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I’ve come away from games with a wide variety of feelings. After the Bears game; however, I find myself both confused and worried. Don’t get me wrong, I’m okay that they lost.

I’m confused because I thought I was watching a preseason game. The Cards seemed to be experimenting with odd calls at odd times. They inexplicably went for 2 again, which has become some sort of odds defying strategy. They continue to play nearly useless players. I warned at draft time that Pappoe was a fine athlete who had no concept of how the game is played. He can’t tackle. He rushes up to engage OLs rather than letting the play come to him. This results in his not filling a gap and allowing his opponent to race through that gap. CB Thomas couldn’t cover a statue. Somehow Wilkinson is starting again. Moore gets less from his prodigious talent than almost any receiver I’ve ever seen. He flashes greatness, but achieves mediocrity. Cameron Thomas has oddly regressed this season. WR Wilson gets virtually no separation, yet plays ahead of Dortch, who continues to make plays with the few chances he’s given. When trailing and short on time, it often seemed they called plays designed to burn the clock. The only way to resolve my confusion is to conclude I was right all along. I’ve been maintaining Monti was aiming for a terrible record. It now seems the Cards have abandoned all subtlety. The coaching staff appears to have joined the party.

Now comes the worried part. If Murray is going to QB this team he needs to do some soul searching. It’s true he has few weapons. However, he’s got to get himself under control. When the opposing QB, whose job is in jeopardy, shows more poise than you do, you’re not getting the job done. He should watch this game tape several times, comparing the poise he displays to what Fields does. Fields has limitations and may well be replaced. However, he’s learned to use the chaos of the rush, not fight it. I’m not saying Murray panics, he just doesn’t have the right mindset. He doesn’t visualize what’s going. He fights it rather than using it. He just doesn’t get it at this point.

I think he’s been back from injury long enough to administer some tough love. Either his ego can take it or he’s not the guy. I’m not saying scream at him or threaten him. I’m saying he needs to watch film on a better way of coping with pressure and start to improve his game. Can he accept he has things to learn and apply what he sees? We all know what happens if you ignore adjusting to issues and simply hope for improvement. He has to start maximizing his talent.

Warning of coming attractions? I’m soon going to post a series of articles dissecting how to rebuild the team. I started to put it in one post(too long) but I came to believe I’d rather get us involved in an in depth analysis of the project. It’s going to be a mammoth undertaking as I think this may be the weakest roster since they moved to AZ. I’d like to urge tolerance of divergent views. This is so complex, all options should be on the table. By taking it a piece at a time, everyone can get their say. If, after it wraps up, I’ve missed an area of concern please advance it. I know it’s tough to compartmentalize but I think we’ll do better if we try to stay with the area of focus. I know they interrelate, but otherwise we’ll be all over the place. Again let’s try to give everyone a fair hearing. Please stay away from personal attacks and present reasons opposing positions.
Harry, stellar work good brother. This post encapsulates exactly what most of us are feeling. All I ever asked was that we play, smart intelligent football this season which to my dismay has been done nearly zilch. I will be honest. I'm now left with questions about the ability of both O and D co-ordinators, as we of course know that Gannon is just a Gap store mannequin.
 
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