NBA Finals Boston vs Dallas (poll)

Who will be Champions?


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Hoop Head

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These games definitely magnify the glaring defensive weakness of the Suns. The Mavs crushed the best defense in the league (Minnesota) only to be crushed by what appears to be an even better defense in Boston. Boston can even being missing their best defensive piece and still win. And they can win without even shooting well. Against Suns, it would be a slaughter of biblical proportions.

Boston has the #3 defense. I think they're better than Minnesota also. They've blown more teams out and won more games as well, which I believe could cause a disparity between them and Minnesota. More garbage time allows for inflated offensive numbers for their opponents and lower defensive stats for them. I could be wrong. I've always felt the difference between the top 3 or 4 defenses, or offenses, are negligible. They're top tier across the board.

A key difference is Boston's defense is the same as it was all season while Minnesota struggled some due to teams pulling Gobert out of the paint. The game changes in the playoffs and Boston hasn't needed to adjust while Minnesota failed to adjust.
 

Cheesebeef

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Between his terrible D, picking up KAT-esque stupid fouls (complete with incessant whining) and even somewhat under par play on offense, Luka’s really done himself dirty in these Finals.

Still an incredible player who shouldered the bulk of this Mavs team to wins over 3 50 win clubs, but he’s still got some growing up to do before he can become the best player in the game.
 

CardNots

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Between his terrible D, picking up KAT-esque stupid fouls (complete with incessant whining) and even somewhat under par play on offense, Luka’s really done himself dirty in these Finals.

Still an incredible player who shouldered the bulk of this Mavs team to wins over 3 50 win clubs, but he’s still got some growing up to do before he can become the best player in the game.
I’m not sold on his ability to “grow up”. I think we are seeing him at his ceiling…
 

95pro

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In fairness, on Luka's 6th foul, Jaylen Brown pushes Doncic out of the way with his right shoulder and arm.

IMO, that is a close call for a Finals series.

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Game 2, Brown just shoves the ball into a Mav's player face and draws a foul. Playing within the rules, eh yeah. Fair, no.
 

Mainstreet

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Game 2, Brown just shoves the ball into a Mav's player face and draws a foul. Playing within the rules, eh yeah. Fair, no.

Yeah, shoving a ball into a player's face should be a foul.
 

Hoop Head

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I think that 6th foul again Luka goes his way a lot. He's so bad at lateral movement and gets blown by so often and it's such a common occurrence that whenever someone doesn't go around him he gets bailed out by refs. It was very deliberate on Boston's end though that they were going to draw another foul so he couldn't be saved. Reviewing it hurt Dallas also. It was a clear foul on Luka, he wasn't set, and then 2 plays later PJ Washington was whistled on a very questionable moving screen. Had they had their challenge, I think they'd get that Washington foul back. That really stifled their momentum. It had almost dissipated but wasn't completely gone yet.
 

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I’m not sold on his ability to “grow up”. I think we are seeing him at his ceiling…
I've heard that a few times over the last few years. I don't buy it because he's already grown up a fair amount. he hasn't had this letdown or ceiling in his game yet. he has improved every year. yet he's still only 25 which is young by NBA standards. His mentor is dirk who had a lot of meltdowns in his own right over the years before he won a title. dirk once threatened to fight a ref after being T'd up. Tim Duncan got ejected for laughing at a ref on the bench. I think Luka will be ok.
 

Cheesebeef

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I’m not sold on his ability to “grow up”. I think we are seeing him at his ceiling…
Eh… I’ve seen comments about Luka having already almost reached his ceiling since his rookie season.

He’s gotten better every year and is still only 25. This is the first time he’s really being hammered on a National scale. Still think it’s a toss-up if he can get more mature.
 

Lorenzo

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I think that 6th foul again Luka goes his way a lot. He's so bad at lateral movement and gets blown by so often and it's such a common occurrence that whenever someone doesn't go around him he gets bailed out by refs. It was very deliberate on Boston's end though that they were going to draw another foul so he couldn't be saved. Reviewing it hurt Dallas also. It was a clear foul on Luka, he wasn't set, and then 2 plays later PJ Washington was whistled on a very questionable moving screen. Had they had their challenge, I think they'd get that Washington foul back. That really stifled their momentum. It had almost dissipated but wasn't completely gone yet.
I don't think the Washington foul would have gotten called back either. I thought it was a tick tack call considering how they called the game though. and it was a flop by holiday who also could have had more fouls in the game the way he defended both doncic and Irving. Doncic is playing with a knee sprain. his offense in the 4th quarter of games throughout the playoffs has been a lot more of deferment to other players as well.
 
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Dback Jon

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I don't think the Washington foul would have gotten called back either. I thought it was a tick tack call considering how they called the game though. and it was a flop by holiday who also could have had more fouls in the game the way he defended both doncic and Irving. Doncic is playing with a knee sprain. his offense in the 4th quarter of games throughout the playoffs has been a lot more of deferment to other players as well.
You could tell he wasn't jumping as much as he normally did in the 4th - a few of his shots were short because of that
 

Lorenzo

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Yeah, shoving a ball into a player's face should be a foul.
true. Boston can get away with a lot because they are consistent. all of their players are physical and play that way at both ends. they pick you up all the way up and down the court. it's hard for the refs to enforce the game consistently with how desperate they play. I'm not complaining, I laud their effort. I don't see the same effort from dallas, but dallas are also not as good as Boston overall. Unlike Boston, Dallas don't have a plethora of guys that can play like that at both ends of the court. dallas' defensive minded players aren't even trying to score. and their offensive minded players aren't scoring either. it's really just not an equal matchup against Boston.
 
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GatorAZ

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Eh… I’ve seen comments about Luka having already almost reached his ceiling since his rookie season.

He’s gotten better every year and is still only 25. This is the first time he’s really being hammered on a National scale. Still think it’s a toss-up if he can get more mature.

He still can get in better shape. You can tell when he’s eating poorly and boozing because his face gets huge.

The easiest thing he can do is stop letting the refs get in his head. He benefits from calls as much as anyone yet still cries. Windhorst said the Mavs have tried working with him on it to no avail.
 

Hoop Head

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He still can get in better shape. You can tell when he’s eating poorly and boozing because his face gets huge.

The easiest thing he can do is stop letting the refs get in his head. He benefits from calls as much as anyone yet still cries. Windhorst said the Mavs have tried working with him on it to no avail.

LeBron is the same way and he's been in the league 20+ years. He even got the Lakers to make a formal complaint on how they're officiated, claiming they dont get calls. I recall the report on that early this season and had to laugh at the delusion.

Stars are used to be coddled. Referees are the only people who don't bend over backwards for them. Coaches, GM's, and billionaire owners do. Not to say refs don't make concessions, they most certainly do, but ultimately they're the only people guys like Luka, Lebron, Durant, Booker, CP3, etc that push back.
 

Mainstreet

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But to Luka’s credit, he handled it really well. :p

The game was within a few points at the time. It's hard to fault him protesting on that call, especially since it was his 6th foul and the offensive player created the contact.

What did the announcer say... great push by Jaylen Brown?
 

Mainstreet

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true. Boston can get away with a lot because they are consistent. all of their players are physical and play that way at both ends. they pick you up all the way up and down the court. it's hard for the refs to enforce the game consistently with how desperate they play. I'm not complaining, I laud their effort. I don't see the same effort from dallas, but dallas are also not as good as Boston overall. Unlike Boston, Dallas don't have a plethora of guys that can play like that at both ends of the court. dallas' defensive minded players aren't even trying to score. and their offensive minded players aren't scoring either. it's really just not an equal matchup against Boston.

Although I'm not a Dallas fan, the referees are supposed to be consistent as well.
 

Lorenzo

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Although I'm not a Dallas fan, the referees are supposed to be consistent as well.
I agree. and there's a lot of talk in Dallas today regarding Luka's complaining causing the refs to go after him. I don't see it. Doncic rarely fouls out of games. he took one or two cheap fouls in the game that hurt him. I think there were a lot of no calls in the game when doncic drove to the basket. but I saw a lot of no calls on the other side too for Tatum when he went to the basket. the only call that bothered me in the game was the screen by Washington when holiday flopped to the ground. that was a big play late in the game. there was a no call on a hack that holiday got on Doncic and caused doncic to lose the ball. it was reviewed and the ball given to Boston. it was in the first half. it was basically the same play from game 1 or 2 of the Minnesota series where Irving got away with the hack. I remember that was a very unpopular play on here at the time...
 

Lorenzo

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LeBron is the same way and he's been in the league 20+ years. He even got the Lakers to make a formal complaint on how they're officiated, claiming they dont get calls. I recall the report on that early this season and had to laugh at the delusion.

Stars are used to be coddled. Referees are the only people who don't bend over backwards for them. Coaches, GM's, and billionaire owners do. Not to say refs don't make concessions, they most certainly do, but ultimately they're the only people guys like Luka, Lebron, Durant, Booker, CP3, etc that push back.
I used to hate Tim Duncan's ref interaction. I can't remember a foul call when he raised his hand and admitted to a foul. I just remember him arguing every single foul call and no foul given when he thought he was fouled. he had personal beef with refs. he's the only player I've ever seen getting T'd up and ejected for laughing at a ref while on the bench. yet in spite of this I don't think it was ever a talking point with the national media.
 
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I used to hate Tim Duncan's ref interaction. I can't remember a foul call when he raised his hand and admitted to a foul. I just remember him arguing every single foul call and no foul given when he thought he was fouled. he had personal beef with refs. he's the only player I've ever seen getting T'd up and ejected for laughing at a ref while on the bench. yet in spite of this I don't think it was ever a talking point with the national media.

I completely disagree with ejecting a player on the bench for...laughing at a referee. I'm not sure I even agree with it if the player is on the court. I think players should be allowed to laugh at referees.
 

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I completely disagree with ejecting a player on the bench for...laughing at a referee. I'm not sure I even agree with it if the player is on the court. I think players should be allowed to laugh at referees.
I couldn't believe it when I saw it. Duncan was literally laughing talking to his teammates and Joey Crawford turns to him and T's him up. one of my favorite dallas/SA memories. but it was wrong. and the NBA rightfully punished Crawford. I think suns and mavs fans remember seeing Tim's eyes pop out of his head when he got called for a foul. but I still don't recall the national media ever saying anything about it.
 

Covert Rain

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Between his terrible D, picking up KAT-esque stupid fouls (complete with incessant whining) and even somewhat under par play on offense, Luka’s really done himself dirty in these Finals.

Still an incredible player who shouldered the bulk of this Mavs team to wins over 3 50 win clubs, but he’s still got some growing up to do before he can become the best player in the game.
Getting freaking mature is only part of it. That's going to be hard as is. I was listening to a national show and they said the organization has tried talking to him about it, his coach and teammates but he still does the pouting cry baby stuff. The other part of it is he is really bad defensively for long stretches. He has been in the league what 6 seasons? Not sure he is going to get much better there either. To me to be the BEST player in the league you have to bring it on both ends.
 

Lorenzo

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Getting freaking mature is only part of it. That's going to be hard as is. I was listening to a national show and they said the organization has tried talking to him about it, his coach and teammates but he still does the pouting cry baby stuff. The other part of it is he is really bad defensively for long stretches. He has been in the league what 6 seasons? Not sure he is going to get much better there either. To me to be the BEST player in the league you have to bring it on both ends.
the national media are doing their jobs, but they have often been wrong about doncic and the mavericks in general. I would not put much stock in what they report. I saw that doncic did an interview today and he apologized for letting down his teammates. I think his teammates should be apologizing to him for their performances as well. while doncic can apologize to his team, he doesn't owe the media any explanation IMO. the national media didn't predict doncic would be where he is today. the national media did not predict dallas would be in the finals and had them losing most if not all of their playoff series. Lebron had an 8 point game in the finals against dallas in 2011. he failed to score 20 points in 3 of the finals games that year. and before that was swept by the spurs in 2007. the best players have bad games, and yes they do mature over time. it's part of learning to get better through failure. Luka in a bad game last night scored 27 and was +9 while he was on the court.
 

Covert Rain

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the national media are doing their jobs, but they have often been wrong about doncic and the mavericks in general. I would not put much stock in what they report. I saw that doncic did an interview today and he apologized for letting down his teammates. I think his teammates should be apologizing to him for their performances as well. while doncic can apologize to his team, he doesn't owe the media any explanation IMO. the national media didn't predict doncic would be where he is today. the national media did not predict dallas would be in the finals and had them losing most if not all of their playoff series. Lebron had an 8 point game in the finals against dallas in 2011. he failed to score 20 points in 3 of the finals games. and before that was swept by the spurs in 2007. the best players have bad games, and yes they do mature over time. it's part of learning to get better through failure. Luka in a bad game last night scored 27 and was +9 while he was on the court.
None of that has anything to do with what I have seen out of Luka since he entered the league. He cries more than just about any player out there and isn't a good defender. That has nothing to do with the media. Maybe he can improve those things but I have doubts.
 

Lorenzo

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None of that has anything to do with what I have seen out of Luka since he entered the league. He cries more than just about any player out there and isn't a good defender. That has nothing to do with the media. Maybe he can improve those things but I have doubts.
ok I brought up the media in reply to what you said about listening to national media who claim the mavericks have talked to doncic about his attitude. I think some of the national media, particularly ESPN not so much TNT, lack credibility regarding the mavs. This notion that doncic can't mature is wrong. He was in the WCF just 2 years ago and now they are in the finals with a completely different team around him. I would say he is ahead of where most people thought he would be at this point in his career. being a crybaby isn't going to change. he is going to complain to refs and trash talk with fans. that's who he is. he doesn't need to change that. he does need to improve on defense. and honestly I have seen improvement in these playoffs.
 

Covert Rain

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What a devastation it would be if this was Luka’s only trip to the finals? Book found out how hard it is to return and it likely won’t happen here. That would be an albatross around Luka’s career if this is it. It wouldn’t be the first time a great player only got one shot. Some get none.
 

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