Mike Budenholzer - Officially Suns new Head Coach

Hoop Head

ASFN Icon
Joined
Feb 4, 2005
Posts
16,571
Reaction score
11,664
Location
Tempe, AZ
Well it’s certainly not his fault.

He carried this team most of the year.

A lot of failure points on this team but he wasn’t one of those.

I'm not blaming him solely for the way the season played out but he does deserve some blame. When a guy is paid roughly $50 million a year and is the highest paid player on the team, they should be capable of leading a team and KD didn't do a good job as this teams leader. KD didn't lead this team and it's debatable if he's ever been a successful leader in his career.

I don't believe we're headed in the right direction as a team either based on James Jones comments about how he doesn't believe Durant's skills have ever been maximized by a team before and that the Suns will aim to unleash him next season. That's not Durant's fault our GM is an idiot and feels that way but I don't believe JJ makes those comments if KD didn't express his frustrations regarding how he was used. As you said, he had one his best seasons from a statistical standpoint so why isn't he happy with his role? There was plenty of opportunity to take more and he didn't seem to want to assert himself. That was an issue all year with the whole ream in the 4th quarter. I don't believe that was just Vogel or Kevin Young's fault.
 

Yuma

Suns are my Kryptonite!
Joined
Jan 3, 2003
Posts
21,440
Reaction score
10,961
Location
Laveen, AZ
Wait. I think many on the forum wanted to trade for Durant. Now we trade him after giving up all those assets to the Nets?
Like you said, we don't have any change in our pocket. There's rumor we could flip Allen and Royce this season. IDK. I think that only comes into play if we flip Nurk and NEED bigs.
 

CardNots

ASFN Lifer
Joined
Sep 12, 2002
Posts
4,177
Reaction score
3,924
Location
Jenks, Oklahoma
Like you said, we don't have any change in our pocket. There's rumor we could flip Allen and Royce this season. IDK. I think that only comes into play if we flip Nurk and NEED bigs.
Flipping Allen would explain the big contract he received.
 

Mainstreet

Cruisin' Mainstreet
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Posts
114,066
Reaction score
53,744
Like you said, we don't have any change in our pocket. There's rumor we could flip Allen and Royce this season. IDK. I think that only comes into play if we flip Nurk and NEED bigs.

I keep trying to figure out a way the Suns can get under the first tax apron and keep their upcoming draft picks.

Then they would have some flexibility to make trades and use exceptions.

Some team would have to absorb the contract of Durant or Beal.

Another option, a team would have to trade us assets for one of those contracts.
 

GatorAZ

feed hopkins
Joined
Oct 17, 2011
Posts
24,674
Reaction score
17,005
Location
The Giant Toaster
I'm not blaming him solely for the way the season played out but he does deserve some blame. When a guy is paid roughly $50 million a year and is the highest paid player on the team, they should be capable of leading a team and KD didn't do a good job as this teams leader. KD didn't lead this team and it's debatable if he's ever been a successful leader in his career.

I don't believe we're headed in the right direction as a team either based on James Jones comments about how he doesn't believe Durant's skills have ever been maximized by a team before and that the Suns will aim to unleash him next season. That's not Durant's fault our GM is an idiot and feels that way but I don't believe JJ makes those comments if KD didn't express his frustrations regarding how he was used. As you said, he had one his best seasons from a statistical standpoint so why isn't he happy with his role? There was plenty of opportunity to take more and he didn't seem to want to assert himself. That was an issue all year with the whole ream in the 4th quarter. I don't believe that was just Vogel or Kevin Young's fault.

The reports about KD being frustrated about how he’s being used just makes me think he’ll never be happy. As if Frank Vogel or Kevin Young are the type of alpha personalities that dictate how KD or Book choose to play offense. This is just a flawed roster that’s gonna be clunky offensively regardless of coaching then Bud will be fired within two years.
 

Yuma

Suns are my Kryptonite!
Joined
Jan 3, 2003
Posts
21,440
Reaction score
10,961
Location
Laveen, AZ
The reports about KD being frustrated about how he’s being used just makes me think he’ll never be happy. As if Frank Vogel or Kevin Young are the type of alpha personalities that dictate how KD or Book choose to play offense. This is just a flawed roster that’s gonna be clunky offensively regardless of coaching then Bud will be fired within two years.
I do think Kevin Young's offense sucked. That's why players kept going back to ISO ball. We never had movement, multiple screens, etc, like a Popovic system. KD was at his best as a spot up shooter when he played for GS. We can all see he is not that great off the dribble. So yes, I can see where he's frustrated because Book and Beal should be setting him up, not tossing to him repeatedly and saying, you make something happen.
 

GatorAZ

feed hopkins
Joined
Oct 17, 2011
Posts
24,674
Reaction score
17,005
Location
The Giant Toaster
I do think Kevin Young's offense sucked. That's why players kept going back to ISO ball. We never had movement, multiple screens, etc, like a Popovic system. KD was at his best as a spot up shooter when he played for GS. We can all see he is not that great off the dribble. So yes, I can see where he's frustrated because Book and Beal should be setting him up, not tossing to him repeatedly and saying, you make something happen.

He’s playing with Book and Beal so it’s going to be heavy-iso offense. Exactly what he came from with the Nets so maybe he’s got a short memory lol. Golden St was the outlier because nobody needed the ball. Even Curry could run off screens and spot up but we just don’t have that personnel. In 2022 we had a top-5 offense but the Point God was still in elite form. Now we have a bunch of ISO guys with no PG and play slow.
 

Yuma

Suns are my Kryptonite!
Joined
Jan 3, 2003
Posts
21,440
Reaction score
10,961
Location
Laveen, AZ
He’s playing with Book and Beal so it’s going to be heavy-iso offense. Exactly what he came from with the Nets so maybe he’s got a short memory lol. Golden St was the outlier because nobody needed the ball. Even Curry could run off screens and spot up but we just don’t have that personnel. In 2022 we had a top-5 offense but the Point God was still in elite form. Now we have a bunch of ISO guys with no PG and play slow.
I just think he would be happier if Book and Beal tried to cook, even in ISO ball, draw defenders and kick it out to him. I think he thought that was how it would be, just like GS when they had two shooters other teams had to defend. The advantage GS had was Curry is a ball handler, too. If they insist on these three being on the floor at the same time, then Book and Beal have to hit up some guys like Crawford in the off season and really get serious about their handles.
 

Phrazbit

ASFN Icon
Joined
Oct 10, 2011
Posts
19,972
Reaction score
10,892
I do think Kevin Young's offense sucked. That's why players kept going back to ISO ball. We never had movement, multiple screens, etc, like a Popovic system. KD was at his best as a spot up shooter when he played for GS. We can all see he is not that great off the dribble. So yes, I can see where he's frustrated because Book and Beal should be setting him up, not tossing to him repeatedly and saying, you make something happen.

KD doesn't want to play off the ball. He wants to run his inefficient slow iso game.

The offensive style was dictated by the players.
 

Superbone

Phoenix native; Lifelong Suns Fan
Joined
Jul 31, 2005
Posts
6,138
Reaction score
3,183
Location
Phoenix, AZ
Wait. I think many on the forum wanted to trade for Durant. Now we trade him after giving up all those assets to the Nets?
What other choice are there after a failed experiment? Plus, what fans wanted or didn't want doesn't matter. It's Ishbia and all those under him who pulled the trigger. You make a mess, you clean it up.
 

AzStevenCal

ASFN IDOL
Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2004
Posts
36,314
Reaction score
15,461
Well it’s certainly not his fault.

He carried this team most of the year.

A lot of failure points on this team but he wasn’t one of those.
I disagree. It wasn't all his fault but he was a significant part of the problem. His inattention to detail, failure to protect the ball at key times and his habit of disappearing against physical defenses really hurt us. Sure, we wouldn't have been in a position to worry about the outcome if it hadn't been for the good things KD brought to the table but we lost a lot of winnable games because of his late game performance.

Or, another way to look at it, we are paying him like he's the best player in the league, he's performing like he's top 20. Top 20 at his age is great but he's no longer the force he once was but, unfortunately, we need him to be that force.
 

Superbone

Phoenix native; Lifelong Suns Fan
Joined
Jul 31, 2005
Posts
6,138
Reaction score
3,183
Location
Phoenix, AZ
I disagree. It wasn't all his fault but he was a significant part of the problem. His inattention to detail, failure to protect the ball at key times and his habit of disappearing against physical defenses really hurt us. Sure, we wouldn't have been in a position to worry about the outcome if it hadn't been for the good things KD brought to the table but we lost a lot of winnable games because of his late game performance.

Or, another way to look at it, we are paying him like he's the best player in the league, he's performing like he's top 20. Top 20 at his age is great but he's no longer the force he once was but, unfortunately, we need him to be that force.
Yep. I knew he was a great player before he came here but not much else about him. In his time here, I have learned that he is not a leader and that he's thin skinned when it comes to any criticism. I wish Booker would step up as the vocal leader of this team but I think he defers too much to Durant and Beal maybe because they're older than him. But he's in his prime now and he needs to step up as the leader of this team.
 
Last edited:

Mainstreet

Cruisin' Mainstreet
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Posts
114,066
Reaction score
53,744
What other choice are there after a failed experiment? Plus, what fans wanted or didn't want doesn't matter. It's Ishbia and all those under him who pulled the trigger. You make a mess, you clean it up.

Yeah. Those who spilled the milk should clean it up. Too bad the fans have to endure it.
 

95pro

ASFN Icon
Joined
May 10, 2007
Posts
12,338
Reaction score
3,923
Oh great. I hope this isnt a "head coach in waiting" situation. We've had that way too often.

Bud chose Fiz. Fiz has already been a HC before, doesn't sound like he's chomping to be one again.

Previous role was suns FO thinking they know best and keeping Young as the lead assistant and offensive coach for Vogels staff.
 

CardNots

ASFN Lifer
Joined
Sep 12, 2002
Posts
4,177
Reaction score
3,924
Location
Jenks, Oklahoma
I disagree. It wasn't all his fault but he was a significant part of the problem. His inattention to detail, failure to protect the ball at key times and his habit of disappearing against physical defenses really hurt us. Sure, we wouldn't have been in a position to worry about the outcome if it hadn't been for the good things KD brought to the table but we lost a lot of winnable games because of his late game performance.

Or, another way to look at it, we are paying him like he's the best player in the league, he's performing like he's top 20. Top 20 at his age is great but he's no longer the force he once was but, unfortunately, we need him to be that force.
It’s certainly not about your need only your wants. So people making top dollar can’t fail?

I could argue the pre Durant team would not have made the playoffs this year with the level of competition in the West.
 

AzStevenCal

ASFN IDOL
Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2004
Posts
36,314
Reaction score
15,461
It’s certainly not about your need only your wants. So people making top dollar can’t fail?

I could argue the pre Durant team would not have made the playoffs this year with the level of competition in the West.
I agree the West is tougher now and we probably needed KD just to get where we were this past season. But where we were wasn't our goal, we traded for Durant to get us in the running to win it all and that didn't happen. KD, although still elite, proved to be noticably less dominant than pre-injury KD and as such wasn't enough to elevate us beyond one and done. In the end, I don't blame KD. I blame us for taking on his negative value contract while giving away several assets that we couldn't afford to part with and still build a winner.
 

Hoop Head

ASFN Icon
Joined
Feb 4, 2005
Posts
16,571
Reaction score
11,664
Location
Tempe, AZ
What other choice are there after a failed experiment? Plus, what fans wanted or didn't want doesn't matter. It's Ishbia and all those under him who pulled the trigger. You make a mess, you clean it up.

Why not blow it up now? The KD suns are a failed experiment. We've regressed as a team with him.
 

AzStevenCal

ASFN IDOL
Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2004
Posts
36,314
Reaction score
15,461
Why not blow it up now? The KD suns are a failed experiment. We've regressed as a team with him.
I'm torn. I don't think we have any real chance to improve whether we add on or blow it up unless we blow it up completely and start using cap space to generate future assets. But if they blow it up with the hopes of a quick turnaround, we could be screwed for the better part of a decade.

Personally I lean towards trading everyone. Try and bring in young players that Bud can develop and just live with the worst record for the next few years. It will hurt each year come draft day but that's the future we've created. OTOH, the temptation of possibly adding Lebron on a minimum salary has to be tempting to this FO.
 

CardNots

ASFN Lifer
Joined
Sep 12, 2002
Posts
4,177
Reaction score
3,924
Location
Jenks, Oklahoma
I'm torn. I don't think we have any real chance to improve whether we add on or blow it up unless we blow it up completely and start using cap space to generate future assets. But if they blow it up with the hopes of a quick turnaround, we could be screwed for the better part of a decade.

Personally I lean towards trading everyone. Try and bring in young players that Bud can develop and just live with the worst record for the next few years. It will hurt each year come draft day but that's the future we've created. OTOH, the temptation of possibly adding Lebron on a minimum salary has to be tempting to this FO.
I don’t understand, trading everyone would certainly bring draft assets although at that time we would rather have our own picks instead of picks acquired from another team.
 

Hoop Head

ASFN Icon
Joined
Feb 4, 2005
Posts
16,571
Reaction score
11,664
Location
Tempe, AZ
I'm torn. I don't think we have any real chance to improve whether we add on or blow it up unless we blow it up completely and start using cap space to generate future assets. But if they blow it up with the hopes of a quick turnaround, we could be screwed for the better part of a decade.

Personally I lean towards trading everyone. Try and bring in young players that Bud can develop and just live with the worst record for the next few years. It will hurt each year come draft day but that's the future we've created. OTOH, the temptation of possibly adding Lebron on a minimum salary has to be tempting to this FO.

@Phrazbit idea of trading Booker to Brooklyn for our picks back is really the only way out of this mess, IMO. That allows us to tank and also then deal KD and Beal for more assets. Outside of that, I'm not sure how we can keep from suffering through the next half decade.

It's not ideal but I don't see a 3 way trade that moves KD and sends Brooklyn something for our picks, allowing us to keep Booker. I'm not thinking keep Book long term so much as give him the option or then deal him for another allotment of picks.
 

taz02

All Star
Joined
May 8, 2007
Posts
928
Reaction score
454
IMO, if this current group can't get it done, they will either trade Booker for the assets needed for a complete re-build or the next decade is going to resemble the last decade.
 

GatorAZ

feed hopkins
Joined
Oct 17, 2011
Posts
24,674
Reaction score
17,005
Location
The Giant Toaster
I’ve never felt more strongly that this is the time to trade KD. We are not getting past the Denver, Minnesota, Dallas and OKC’s going forward. Our best player’s best ball is behind them and we can’t improve the margins enough to make a difference. Ishbia won’t admit his creation failed but the right basketball move is a mini rebuild. Randle, Bogdanovich plus three 1st’s can probably get it done as the Knicks would be trading nobody from their playoff lineup for a top-15 guy.
 

Staff online

Forum statistics

Threads
542,886
Posts
5,314,024
Members
6,290
Latest member
stbmd
Top