Marvin Harrison’s Body

[Chopper0080]

I bought the DVOA annual this week because I was going on a flight. Here's the MHJ writeup in total:

I feel like that matches what was on the field last year. Go routes and back shoulder fades. So gross.

Also, I am sympathetic to MHJ as his style of play and ways to separate just don't match well with what Kyler has shown so far in his career. MHJ is a depth and timing route runner. I thought it was telling when McBride shared that he improvs a lot of routes because of Kyler being a feel passer vs a timing/depth passer like traditional NFL QBs. It's one of the things Fitzgerald struggled with as well playing with Kyler.

 

[TJ]

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He's so much stronger than at this point last season

 

[BullheadCardFan]

I feel like that matches what was on the field last year. Go routes and back shoulder fades. So gross.

Also, I am sympathetic to MHJ as his style of play and ways to separate just don't match well with what Kyler has shown so far in his career. MHJ is a depth and timing route runner. I thought it was telling when McBride shared that he improvs a lot of routes because of Kyler being a feel passer vs a timing/depth passer like traditional NFL QBs. It's one of the things Fitzgerald struggled with as well playing with Kyler.

Pretty evident what the common denominator is

 

[Chopper0080]

He's so much stronger than at this point last season

Go route with a throw on the back shoulder. Just not a high % route and throw IMO.

 

[Chopper0080]

Pretty evident with the common denominator is

I only bring this up because this is a thread about Marv and as a WR he is dependent on the offense and the QB. The Cardinals can win games and get to the playoffs without MHJ being a 1200 yard WR. The offensive style is a form of keep away. Low pass volume. Kyler has not shown to be a good vertical thrower the past few seasons. These are important aspects to keep in mind when people are comparing MHJ to other WRs in the league especially the guys like Nabers, BTJ, and Ladd.

 

[BirdGangThing]

Go route with a throw on the back shoulder. Just not a high % route and throw IMO.

spent his rookie year trying to catch the ball pinned between the sideline and cb #1 usually with a safety over the top - add in the kyler murray factor- it truly was rough sledding

but that could ultimately work to our benefit - we saw other rookie receivers being utilized differently so to speak while mhj seemed to have a season long training camp - i bet it made him better - i bet it was a factor in him going buff-mode

i bet if petzing does switch the routes up the game might become easier for mhj while others suffer the sophomore slump

 

[Chopper0080]

spent his rookie year trying to catch the ball pinned between the sideline and cb #1 usually with a safety over the top - add in the kyler murray factor- it truly was rough sledding

but that could ultimately work to our benefit - we saw other rookie receivers being utilized differently so to speak while mhj seemed to have a season long training camp - i bet it made him better - i bet it was a factor in him going buff-mode

i bet if petzing does switch the routes up the game might become easier for mhj while others suffer the sophomore slump

We will see. I agree that Petzing did not do MHJ any favors last year with his usage.

 

[BullheadCardFan]

We will see. I agree that Petzing did not do MHJ any favors last year with his usage.

I'm hoping all aspects of our offense can grow this year and improve all around

 

[BirdGangThing]

We will see. I agree that Petzing did not do MHJ any favors last year with his usage.

it was hard to watch at times - ended drives - but you gotta have those tools in the bag

 

[602 Native]

Would rather have MHJ show up bigger and in shape then fat and slower.

What is this thread about????

 

[SoonerLou]

I try to keep this stuff quiet because it has a huge thread about it and I feel everything has been said, BUT I firmly believe MHJ's ceiling is capped as long as Kyler is the QB. Low volume passing game and 26th in yards per completion in 2024 is a disaster for WR production especially when he is not moved around and next to a top TE. In order to get close to 1200 yards, MHJ is going to need 24 more targets, improve his catch % by 12% (also on Kyler to throw better passes), and then maintain a 13+ yards per catch average. Maybe this is easier than I am giving it credit for, but it's a narrow path IMO.

It's like that TC clip where Marv beats the CB deep and then Kyler shorts the throw making it a pseudo-contested catch. If that continues (and maybe it won't), Marv will not be able to have "big years".

There is a question if Kyler can consistently layer throws over the middle to get the best out of him.

However, I do remember him getting Hopkins the ball pretty well. Kliff for all his warts knew how to scheme up Wrs. And K1 obviously has done well with Trey.
I think it could work with Kyler/MHJ. Just dont know if it will happen in this current offense. Kyler/Peting combo isnt it. And after this season one will be gone.

 

[SoonerLou]

I only bring this up because this is a thread about Marv and as a WR he is dependent on the offense and the QB. The Cardinals can win games and get to the playoffs without MHJ being a 1200 yard WR. The offensive style is a form of keep away. Low pass volume. Kyler has not shown to be a good vertical thrower the past few seasons. These are important aspects to keep in mind when people are comparing MHJ to other WRs in the league especially the guys like Nabers, BTJ, and Ladd.

Kyler's deep ball in 2022 was pretty bad as well, but Hopkins was putting up close to 100 yards a game with him. I think he can work around Kyler's limitations with more confidence/dawg.

Again its the combo of Petzing/Kyler. Maybe Kyler will have more trust or Petzing is more creative. We'll see.

We will see. I agree that Petzing did not do MHJ any favors last year with his usage.

Not one screen pass all year was egregious.

 

[kerouac9]

There is a question if Kyler can consistently layer throws over the middle to get the best out of him.

However, I do remember him getting Hopkins the ball pretty well. Kliff for all his warts knew how to scheme up Wrs. And K1 obviously has done well with Trey.
I think it could work with Kyler/MHJ. Just dont know if it will happen in this current offense. Kyler/Peting combo isnt it. And after this season one will be gone.

People were very mad that Hopkins wasn't being moved around, either. But Hopkins wasn't an over-the-top target much of the time; he was an intermediate chain-mover. In his Pro Bowl season here he had the lowest ADoT of his career.

 

[Chopper0080]

There is a question if Kyler can consistently layer throws over the middle to get the best out of him.

However, I do remember him getting Hopkins the ball pretty well. Kliff for all his warts knew how to scheme up Wrs. And K1 obviously has done well with Trey.
I think it could work with Kyler/MHJ. Just dont know if it will happen in this current offense. Kyler/Peting combo isnt it. And after this season one will be gone.

TEs are different. Gannon was stating this when he was talking about Rallis and McBride. It is much easier to scheme against WRs and the outside of the field, vs TEs and the inside.

In terms of "working" working between Kyler and Marv...I think it will work but I also believe it working doesn't lend itself to huge numbers.

 

[Chopper0080]

Also, in 2020, Hopkins WR lines was 160 targets, 115 receptions, 1400 yards, 12.2 yards per reception, and a 71% catch rate. Kirk as the #2 has 79, 48, and 621. Fitz had 72, 54, and 409.

Kyler has never been able to feed multiple WRs at a high rate. Best year was 2021 but none got over 1000.

 

[Chopper0080]

Kyler's deep ball in 2022 was pretty bad as well, but Hopkins was putting up close to 100 yards a game with him. I think he can work around Kyler's limitations with more confidence/dawg.

Again its the combo of Petzing/Kyler. Maybe Kyler will have more trust or Petzing is more creative. We'll see.


Not one screen pass all year was egregious.

In Hopkins three seasons as a Cardinal.

2020 - 87.9 yards per game.
2021 - 57.2 yards per game.
2022 - 79.7 yards per game.

I think we mis-remember Hopkins time in AZ a little. Only 1 season over 750 yards receiving. His only good season was in 2020 when the Cardinals went 8-8. Lots of missed games.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Ugh, still under throwing wide open receivers. He hits him in stride it’s a TD instead of him getting tackled immediately.

And that’s with zero pressure.

 

[Russ Smith]

I try to keep this stuff quiet because it has a huge thread about it and I feel everything has been said, BUT I firmly believe MHJ's ceiling is capped as long as Kyler is the QB. Low volume passing game and 26th in yards per completion in 2024 is a disaster for WR production especially when he is not moved around and next to a top TE. In order to get close to 1200 yards, MHJ is going to need 24 more targets, improve his catch % by 12% (also on Kyler to throw better passes), and then maintain a 13+ yards per catch average. Maybe this is easier than I am giving it credit for, but it's a narrow path IMO.

It's like that TC clip where Marv beats the CB deep and then Kyler shorts the throw making it a pseudo-contested catch. If that continues (and maybe it won't), Marv will not be able to have "big years".

it's a bad throw as was the INT. On the other hand the INT video said that was the first INT any Cards QB had thrown since camp started so that was not the norm it was an exception. Long time Cards fans remember we used to get reports of Jake throwing 5-6 picks in a single practice.

The underthrow to Marv sucks but there's other video of him hitting Marv in stride for a TD and hitting Zay in stride, I want him to be better but he's not going to be perfect.

I agree with what K9 posted we need to move Marv around more but that also calls out what many of us were saying last season, he's just not beating his man and getting open. The Cards offense was built in part on getting defenses into their base defense with extra run guys because we have multiple TE's, that means the skill guys have to be able to beat their man in pass plays.

The classic game for that was New England last year where he's man to man against Christian Gonzalez the entire game and beat him like twice. They had shots of CG on the sidelines laughing and telling teammates how easy it was to cover Marv. That HAS to get better this year and again I think it will

 

[Chopper0080]

it's a bad throw as was the INT. On the other hand the INT video said that was the first INT any Cards QB had thrown since camp started so that was not the norm it was an exception. Long time Cards fans remember we used to get reports of Jake throwing 5-6 picks in a single practice.

The underthrow to Marv sucks but there's other video of him hitting Marv in stride for a TD and hitting Zay in stride, I want him to be better but he's not going to be perfect.

I agree with what K9 posted we need to move Marv around more but that also calls out what many of us were saying last season, he's just not beating his man and getting open. The Cards offense was built in part on getting defenses into their base defense with extra run guys because we have multiple TE's, that means the skill guys have to be able to beat their man in pass plays.

The classic game for that was New England last year where he's man to man against Christian Gonzalez the entire game and beat him like twice. They had shots of CG on the sidelines laughing and telling teammates how easy it was to cover Marv. That HAS to get better this year and again I think it will

I don't know many players in the NFL who can consistently win on go routes and back shoulder fades. That's not how guys consistently win at the NFL level and it is what makes players easy to cover. The best WRs in the NFL get moved around the formation and have a varied route tree. I don't understand why you think MHJ doesn't need the same.

 

[unseenaz]

Put me firmly in the camp that thinks added strength will help in a phsyical sport.

Seems pretty obvious to me, glad someone else has some common sense.

 

[Russ Smith]

I don't know many players in the NFL who can consistently win on go routes and back shoulder fades. That's not how guys consistently win at the NFL level and it is what makes players easy to cover. The best WRs in the NFL get moved around the formation and have a varied route tree. I don't understand why you think MHJ doesn't need the same.

Again an entire game against NE man to man and he beat his man twice. That's what I'm talking about, they weren't just go routes they were 1 on 1 off the LOS and he couldn't get open.

Usage was a problem, Kyler was a problem but IMO the single biggest reason Marv wasn't better last year was Marv struggled to get open

 

[kerouac9]

Also, in 2020, Hopkins WR lines was 160 targets, 115 receptions, 1400 yards, 12.2 yards per reception, and a 71% catch rate. Kirk as the #2 has 79, 48, and 621. Fitz had 72, 54, and 409.

Kyler has never been able to feed multiple WRs at a high rate. Best year was 2021 but none got over 1000.

I don't think this target share is crazy. 575 passing attempts, 27% for Hop, 14% for Kirk, 13% for Fitz.

The '24 Cards had 543 passing attempts; 27% for Trey, 21% for Charmin, 14% for MWilly.

 

[oaken1]

I don't know many players in the NFL who can consistently win on go routes and back shoulder fades. That's not how guys consistently win at the NFL level and it is what makes players easy to cover. The best WRs in the NFL get moved around the formation and have a varied route tree. I don't understand why you think MHJ doesn't need the same.

Moss was probably the most consistent with them. But Marv is no Moss

 

[oaken1]

Again an entire game against NE man to man and he beat his man twice. That's what I'm talking about, they weren't just go routes they were 1 on 1 off the LOS and he couldn't get open.

Usage was a problem, Kyler was a problem but IMO the single biggest reason Marv wasn't better last year was Marv struggled to get open

most rookie WR;s struggle with the jump in competition...its also affected by the fact they have to read the coverage against them as its developing to know which route to run.
Thinking while playing slows guys down but diagnosing coverage mid route is a skill most players develop fairly quickly. Im guessing Marv wont have as much hesitation in his cuts this season now that he is more familiar with his role in the offense.
Because the kid sure did get open consistently on crossing routes.

 

[Russ Smith]

most rookie WR;s struggle with the jump in competition...its also affected by the fact they have to read the coverage against them as its developing to know which route to run.
Thinking while playing slows guys down but diagnosing coverage mid route is a skill most players develop fairly quickly. Im guessing Marv wont have as much hesitation in his cuts this season now that he is more familiar with his role in the offense.
Because the kid sure did get open consistently on crossing routes.

agreed 100%, it's why I think he will be better this year.

I am just saying I don't think the issue with Marv last year was Kyler I think the issue was he couldn't get open nearly as easily as he did in college. And that was the case all year, even as the season went on he was still struggling to get separation