Marvin Harrison’s Body, Part 2

Harry

ASFN Consultant and Senior Writer
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Posts
16,009
Reaction score
36,811
Location
Orlando, FL
I thought about including this when I started the Harrison improved strength thread, but decided I had mentioned it enough. However, in viewing the comments and other media coverage I’ve reluctantly decided to mention it again. Part of my issue is what is a “drop?” Let mention for those of you who don’t know my background when I began professionally evaluating players I had both cable & satellite reception. On a weekend I would typically record 7-10 games. I also would often attend a live game, mostly here in Florida. So I suspect I have watched 1000+ games. I think a true drop is when the receiver gets both hands on the ball and has an unobstructed path to bring the ball into his body. The part about doing acts common to football is more recent. For example, it used to be the case that if a receiver grabbed a ball in the end zone and the ball was jarred loose before he hit the ground, it was still a TD. Metcalf had a big one of those catches.

I have watched recent games where a ball was thrown well behind a receiver. He got a hand on the ball and brought it to his body but was unable to control it. I’ve seen that sequence show up as a drop. Theoretically a catchable ball that is not caught is a drop. So now we’re playing semantics, trying to define catchable. This leads down the rabbit hole the NFL is currently trapped within. Suppose the throw hits the receiver in the numbers. Isn’t that a drop? Watch the arm fighting between typically a CB & a WR. Often the CB is grabbing one of the WR’s arms. That should be flagged but often isn’t. Consider also when the CB has his arm fully wrapped around the WR, so when that WR tries to bring the ball to his body, it is easily dislodged. Simply put, i don’t believe in subjective statistics. Sure it’s impossible to completely eliminate judgment calls, but they need to be restricted to get the most accurate assessments of skill. I suspect this will cause a firestorm, but in the real world it has significant implications.

Let’s consider Murray and Harrison. I will concede Harrison had a mediocre first season; decent but not special. Drops seem to be a big concern. Certainly Harrison’s lack of separation was an issue especially considering the scenarios I outlined above. However, I believe Murray could have made this less of an issue. In college his receivers were often so open, just giving them a shot at the ball was frequently sufficient. That doesn’t work in the NFL. Defenders are better, stronger and faster in the league. I’ve been writing since he got here that Murray needed to improve his ball placement. This is not to say Harrison wasn’t guilty of some of the problem. My point is Harrison would have been better with better passes. Murray often threw behind Harrison on crossing routes. Murray threw some passes way too high along the sideline. Murray has not learned the art of throwing receivers open by leading receivers into holes in the defense. He doesn’t make it easier for receivers to use their body to screen off defenders. This is certainly an advanced skill. QBs typically do not come into the league strong in this technique. However, when one looks at the top QBs, this skill can often be observed. Warner was great at doing this, so was Manning.

Some of this is reading the defense. Knowing where the defense will likely attack from or looking off safeties. I will also reiterate that I think Murray, surrounded by the right players, is good enough to win a Super Bowl. I just do not think he will ever be a dominant QB. Harrison is still new. He will improve. It’s way too early to give up on him or even be seriously concerned. I want to see improvement this season. Then I want to see a third season before reaching a final assessment.
 

kerouac9

Klowned by Keim
Joined
Feb 14, 2003
Posts
43,110
Reaction score
40,443
Location
Gilbert, AZ
Kyler Murray had 519 passing attempts as a collegian between A&M and Oklahoma.

Kyler Murray has 2780 passing attempts as a professional with the Arizona Cardinals.

If Kyler hasn't adjusted to the pro game by now, he's unlikely to ever do so. Before you start telling me about Darnold and Geno Smith, please remember that Darnold had 1,811 attempts before going to Minnesota and Geno had 1,006 before becoming a starter in Seattle. Geno is entering his Age 35 season and still doesn't have as many professional passing attempts as Kyler Murray.

I don't think that Kyler is brave enough anymore to make a lot of tight window throws and he has never developed as a timing passer who hits his back foot and trusts that the first option is going to be open. I don't know why that is, but that's probably his biggest limiter.
 

oaken1

Stone Cold
Banned from P+R
Joined
Mar 13, 2004
Posts
23,111
Reaction score
23,344
Location
Modesto, California
I don't think Kyler is good enough to win a Super Bowl. I don't even think Kyler is good enough to win multiple playoff games. Just not that guy which is fine for now.
I think he "can" win one.
But not "win" one so much as go along for the ride..or not "lose" one...ala Trent Dilfer.
Because he is better than Trent Dilfer,.....theoretically
 

kerouac9

Klowned by Keim
Joined
Feb 14, 2003
Posts
43,110
Reaction score
40,443
Location
Gilbert, AZ
I think he "can" win one.
But not "win" one so much as go along for the ride..or not "lose" one...ala Trent Dilfer.
Because he is better than Trent Dilfer,.....theoretically
Trent Dilfer won the super bowl 25 years ago. He retired during George W Bush's second term.

This example is becoming increasingly irrelevant.
 

Brian in Mesa

Advocatus Diaboli
Super Moderator
Moderator
Supporting Member
Joined
May 13, 2002
Posts
78,779
Reaction score
33,951
Location
Killjoy Central
Kyler Murray had 519 passing attempts as a collegian between A&M and Oklahoma.

Kyler Murray has 2780 passing attempts as a professional with the Arizona Cardinals.
Yeah, but how many passing attempts did he have as the best high school athlete ever? ;)
 

oaken1

Stone Cold
Banned from P+R
Joined
Mar 13, 2004
Posts
23,111
Reaction score
23,344
Location
Modesto, California
I thought about including this when I started the Harrison improved strength thread, but decided I had mentioned it enough. However, in viewing the comments and other media coverage I’ve reluctantly decided to mention it again. Part of my issue is what is a “drop?” Let mention for those of you who don’t know my background when I began professionally evaluating players I had both cable & satellite reception. On a weekend I would typically record 7-10 games. I also would often attend a live game, mostly here in Florida. So I suspect I have watched 1000+ games. I think a true drop is when the receiver gets both hands on the ball and has an unobstructed path to bring the ball into his body. The part about doing acts common to football is more recent. For example, it used to be the case that if a receiver grabbed a ball in the end zone and the ball was jarred loose before he hit the ground, it was still a TD. Metcalf had a big one of those catches.

I have watched recent games where a ball was thrown well behind a receiver. He got a hand on the ball and brought it to his body but was unable to control it. I’ve seen that sequence show up as a drop. Theoretically a catchable ball that is not caught is a drop. So now we’re playing semantics, trying to define catchable. This leads down the rabbit hole the NFL is currently trapped within. Suppose the throw hits the receiver in the numbers. Isn’t that a drop? Watch the arm fighting between typically a CB & a WR. Often the CB is grabbing one of the WR’s arms. That should be flagged but often isn’t. Consider also when the CB has his arm fully wrapped around the WR, so when that WR tries to bring the ball to his body, it is easily dislodged. Simply put, i don’t believe in subjective statistics. Sure it’s impossible to completely eliminate judgment calls, but they need to be restricted to get the most accurate assessments of skill. I suspect this will cause a firestorm, but in the real world it has significant implications.

Let’s consider Murray and Harrison. I will concede Harrison had a mediocre first season; decent but not special. Drops seem to be a big concern. Certainly Harrison’s lack of separation was an issue especially considering the scenarios I outlined above. However, I believe Murray could have made this less of an issue. In college his receivers were often so open, just giving them a shot at the ball was frequently sufficient. That doesn’t work in the NFL. Defenders are better, stronger and faster in the league. I’ve been writing since he got here that Murray needed to improve his ball placement. This is not to say Harrison wasn’t guilty of some of the problem. My point is Harrison would have been better with better passes. Murray often threw behind Harrison on crossing routes. Murray threw some passes way too high along the sideline. Murray has not learned the art of throwing receivers open by leading receivers into holes in the defense. He doesn’t make it easier for receivers to use their body to screen off defenders. This is certainly an advanced skill. QBs typically do not come into the league strong in this technique. However, when one looks at the top QBs, this skill can often be observed. Warner was great at doing this, so was Manning.

Some of this is reading the defense. Knowing where the defense will likely attack from or looking off safeties. I will also reiterate that I think Murray, surrounded by the right players, is good enough to win a Super Bowl. I just do not think he will ever be a dominant QB. Harrison is still new. He will improve. It’s way too early to give up on him or even be seriously concerned. I want to see improvement this season. Then I want to see a third season before reaching a final assessment.
Before we can ever determine what a "drop" is, the NFL has to figure out what a "catch" is.
I tend to agree with you on this though. If the ball hits a guy right in both mitts and he can pull it in without defender interference...but doesnt...thats a drop.
But I also tend to think if a guy extends his arms, grabs the ball, and pulls it back to his body...thats a catch...rather he makes a football move or not. I mean, he latched onto the ball and then pulled it into his body (changed its trajectory)to secure it...clearly a catch...if its knocked away from him at that point....then its not "Not a catch" its a "fumble"
The whole "football move" thing is way too subjective......and the "two steps" thing is just full on offensive favoritism.
as a defender, ringing a guys bell while he is in transition from making a catch to becoming a runner is an art form...and the best way to cause turnovers. But an official can just subjectively claim the offensive player did not make a "football move" and rule it not a catch rather than the forced fumble it in fact "IS"

on Murray..... Im I the only one that just hates the way he hangs his receivers out to dry?? He leaves them wide open for huge hits...poor McBride, over half his catches his arms are fully extended above his head and dudes ribs are totally unprotected...over the middle no less. Those passes lead to injuries and we have been fortunate in that regard to this point...and fortunate that Trey "Boom Boom" McBride is a beast and all around tough SOB.

Marv will be fine. Pretty certain we will see about 115 catches from him this season. But the Petzing needs to get him involved early each game...Marv has shown to be streaky...rather thats on him or kyler...I dunno...but we need to establish him in the first quarter every week...then move to the other guys for Q2 and Q3... then feed Marv and McBride in Q4 to finish
 

oaken1

Stone Cold
Banned from P+R
Joined
Mar 13, 2004
Posts
23,111
Reaction score
23,344
Location
Modesto, California
Trent Dilfer won the super bowl 25 years ago. He retired during George W Bush's second term.

This example is becoming increasingly irrelevant.
its just as relevant today as it was 25 years ago.
a great defense and strong run game can win without significant input from the QB position.
true today.
true 25 years ago.
true in 1943
 

kerouac9

Klowned by Keim
Joined
Feb 14, 2003
Posts
43,110
Reaction score
40,443
Location
Gilbert, AZ
its just as relevant today as it was 25 years ago.
a great defense and strong run game can win without significant input from the QB position.
true today.
true 25 years ago.
true in 1943
Cool. Who was the last QB to win a Super Bowl with that combination? There have been 25 since -- surely there's another proof point.

The Rex Grossman Bears weren't terrible on offense in 2006. Fourteenth in yards.
Jimmy G and the '21 Niners were 12th in passing yards and their defense was top 10.

The Dilfer Ravens were 21st in passing. :barf:
 

Cheesebeef

ASFN IDOL
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2003
Posts
96,973
Reaction score
81,327
Cool. Who was the last QB to win a Super Bowl with that combination? There have been 25 since -- surely there's another proof point.

The Rex Grossman Bears weren't terrible on offense in 2006. Fourteenth in yards.
Jimmy G and the '21 Niners were 12th in passing yards and their defense was top 10.

The Dilfer Ravens were 21st in passing. :barf:
Brad Johnson was pretty mid by the time he QB’d the Bucs to a title with an outstanding D/running game. Not Trent Dilfer bad, but from memory not very good anymore.

But that too is 24 years ago. Edit: and even then he was a 22 TD/6 INT QB his Super Bowl season.
 

kerouac9

Klowned by Keim
Joined
Feb 14, 2003
Posts
43,110
Reaction score
40,443
Location
Gilbert, AZ
Brad Johnson was pretty mid by the time he QB’d the Bucs to a title with an outstanding D/running game. Not Trent Dilfer bad, but from memory not very good anymore.

But that too is 24 years ago.
Their running game actually sucked. Twenty-seventh in yards, 30th in TDs. Brad Johnson ran the NFL's fifteenth-ranked passing offense; the Bucs D was first in yardage and scoring.
 

Cheesebeef

ASFN IDOL
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2003
Posts
96,973
Reaction score
81,327
Their running game actually sucked. Twenty-seventh in yards, 30th in TDs. Brad Johnson ran the NFL's fifteenth-ranked passing offense; the Bucs D was first in yardage and scoring.
Interesting… i remembered their rushing game being better.
 

DVontel

ASFN Icon
Joined
Jan 28, 2015
Posts
15,401
Reaction score
29,390
Only way I can see Kyler winning a playoff game is if our running game is on-point & our defense clamps down, which is not completely out of the question.

If it’s a shootout? Oh boy. Way less confident.
 

DVontel

ASFN Icon
Joined
Jan 28, 2015
Posts
15,401
Reaction score
29,390
I don't think Kyler is good enough to win a Super Bowl. I don't even think Kyler is good enough to win multiple playoff games. Just not that guy which is fine for now.
“Good enough to win a Super Bowl” is moot/FirstTake talk to me, because a lot of great QBs have never appeared in one, let alone win one. Lamar & Allen might not ever play in one, which would be unfortunate. Under his current administration, Burrow probably won’t ever appear in another one.

I just want to know if Kyler can either raise his game or not throw away the game. Like most, I don’t think he can. I want to believe, but there’s no reason to anymore.
 
Last edited:

Cheesebeef

ASFN IDOL
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2003
Posts
96,973
Reaction score
81,327
“Good enough to win a Super Bowl” is moot/FirstTake talk to me, because a lot of great QBs have never appeared in one, let alone win one. Lamar & Allen might not ever play in one, which would be unfortunate. Under his current administration, Burrow probably won’t ever appear in another one.

I just want to know if Kyler can either raise his game or not throw away the game. Like most, I don’t think he can. I want to believe, but there’s no reason to anymore.
Yeah… question for me is more can he consistently push the team into the playoffs and win games there. I don’t think he can do that either. When the pressure spikes, his game plunges. If he can’t handle that during the regular season, it’s super unlikely he’ll be able to raise his game when the pressure is at its highest.
 

kerouac9

Klowned by Keim
Joined
Feb 14, 2003
Posts
43,110
Reaction score
40,443
Location
Gilbert, AZ
They were more reputation than actually being all that good. Just like how Mike Alstott got so much praise but he was only good white, not great.

FTFY ;)

This is true, and it's a problem. What's the point of carrying a QB1 who cant take you to the next level?

The next level for the Arizona Cardinals isn't the Super Bowl, it's the playoffs. IMO (and I know this isn't a wildly popular opinion here), making the playoffs and winning in the playoffs are close enough as to be indistinguishable.

Kirk Cousins has won a playoff game. Trevor Lawrence has won a playoff game. Baker Mayfield has won two playoff games. Kyler hasn't shown to be on their level yet, which is fairly embarrassing.

Yeah… question for me is more can he consistently push the team into the playoffs and win games there. I don’t think he can do that either. When the pressure spikes, his game plunges. If he can’t handle that during the regular season, it’s super unlikely he’ll be able to raise his game when the pressure is at its highest.

This is the deciding season.

Or next year.
 

Russ Smith

The Original Whizzinator
Supporting Member
Joined
May 14, 2002
Posts
101,056
Reaction score
53,914
I thought about including this when I started the Harrison improved strength thread, but decided I had mentioned it enough. However, in viewing the comments and other media coverage I’ve reluctantly decided to mention it again. Part of my issue is what is a “drop?” Let mention for those of you who don’t know my background when I began professionally evaluating players I had both cable & satellite reception. On a weekend I would typically record 7-10 games. I also would often attend a live game, mostly here in Florida. So I suspect I have watched 1000+ games. I think a true drop is when the receiver gets both hands on the ball and has an unobstructed path to bring the ball into his body. The part about doing acts common to football is more recent. For example, it used to be the case that if a receiver grabbed a ball in the end zone and the ball was jarred loose before he hit the ground, it was still a TD. Metcalf had a big one of those catches.

I have watched recent games where a ball was thrown well behind a receiver. He got a hand on the ball and brought it to his body but was unable to control it. I’ve seen that sequence show up as a drop. Theoretically a catchable ball that is not caught is a drop. So now we’re playing semantics, trying to define catchable. This leads down the rabbit hole the NFL is currently trapped within. Suppose the throw hits the receiver in the numbers. Isn’t that a drop? Watch the arm fighting between typically a CB & a WR. Often the CB is grabbing one of the WR’s arms. That should be flagged but often isn’t. Consider also when the CB has his arm fully wrapped around the WR, so when that WR tries to bring the ball to his body, it is easily dislodged. Simply put, i don’t believe in subjective statistics. Sure it’s impossible to completely eliminate judgment calls, but they need to be restricted to get the most accurate assessments of skill. I suspect this will cause a firestorm, but in the real world it has significant implications.

Let’s consider Murray and Harrison. I will concede Harrison had a mediocre first season; decent but not special. Drops seem to be a big concern. Certainly Harrison’s lack of separation was an issue especially considering the scenarios I outlined above. However, I believe Murray could have made this less of an issue. In college his receivers were often so open, just giving them a shot at the ball was frequently sufficient. That doesn’t work in the NFL. Defenders are better, stronger and faster in the league. I’ve been writing since he got here that Murray needed to improve his ball placement. This is not to say Harrison wasn’t guilty of some of the problem. My point is Harrison would have been better with better passes. Murray often threw behind Harrison on crossing routes. Murray threw some passes way too high along the sideline. Murray has not learned the art of throwing receivers open by leading receivers into holes in the defense. He doesn’t make it easier for receivers to use their body to screen off defenders. This is certainly an advanced skill. QBs typically do not come into the league strong in this technique. However, when one looks at the top QBs, this skill can often be observed. Warner was great at doing this, so was Manning.

Some of this is reading the defense. Knowing where the defense will likely attack from or looking off safeties. I will also reiterate that I think Murray, surrounded by the right players, is good enough to win a Super Bowl. I just do not think he will ever be a dominant QB. Harrison is still new. He will improve. It’s way too early to give up on him or even be seriously concerned. I want to see improvement this season. Then I want to see a third season before reaching a final assessment.

I think you mean the Mel Gray play against Washington not Metcalf?
 

DVontel

ASFN Icon
Joined
Jan 28, 2015
Posts
15,401
Reaction score
29,390
Kyler hasn't shown to be on their level yet, which is fairly embarrassing.
Does that mean Kyler is on Herbert’s level?

(I’m joking, but honestly you can add Hebert to the Lamar/Allen/Burrow point I made earlier)
 

kerouac9

Klowned by Keim
Joined
Feb 14, 2003
Posts
43,110
Reaction score
40,443
Location
Gilbert, AZ
Does that mean Kyler is on Herbert’s level?

(I’m joking, but honestly you can add Hebert to the Lamar/Allen/Burrow point I made earlier)
1000%. Herbert's one loss is Trevor Lawrence's one win. Making the playoffs twice moves him maybe a half-step ahead (would have been three times if Staley had played for the tie in 2021).
 
Top