Legal Tampering period thread and Free agency 2021.

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

You're making my argument for me. So we agree it's better to invest in O line and have a good scheme than try to find a McCaffrey or Zeke. Because no RB is going to be great with a poor O line, as we saw with Zeke last year.

You're right. An elite running back will get you a little more YPC in a poor system than an average running back. But then you have to pay that one guy mega bucks. You have to carry major injury risk and he's going to wear out quickly in most cases.

It makes much more sense to put that money into a good O line and TE's while using good RB's that come much cheaper. That way you offer better protection to the QB too, improve the run game, save money and spread your injury risk.

That’s not accurate. We have seen many great rbs have success without great lines. Barry sanders comes to mind. He never had the luxury of the line that emmitt did. Sequons lines haven’t been great either, more recently. And just last year drake, who no one believes is a great rb, almost 1,000 yards (again, your marker for success) behind an average to less than average cards offensive linemen.

 

[Solar7]

I think Larry is an example of bad QBs, limited impact. Just look at 2012-2014. And it also means they likely could have had monster seasons like Julio has had if they had good QBs. Plenty of rbs have also reached 1000 yards (your marker for “success”) with mediocre or even bad offensive lines.

Emmitt Smith almost had 1000 yards for us. Emmitt Smith.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I don't know; Justin Murray and Kelvin Beachum are OK NFL players. Pugh is a decent guard, and the left side of the OL overall looks pretty solid.

I know I'm not alone in this assessment, but the Cardinals OL is probably as good as it's ever been (ON PAPER) in all the years I've followed this team.

Let’s take it player by player:

Humphries is good
Pugh I suspect will be much improved playing next to Hudson
Hudson huge upgrade
Murray couldn’t beat out last years guard who we let walk
Beachum is average

the oline should be better, but I’ll be surprised if we are mauling teams. Also, Hudson is likely the best pass blocking center in the league, but his run blocking isn’t nearly as highly rated (though still miles above what we’ve gotten for years).

 

[football karma]

Let’s take it player by player:

Humphries is good
Pugh I suspect will be much improved playing next to Hudson
Hudson huge upgrade
Murray couldn’t beat out last years guard who we let walk
Beachum is average

the oline should be better, but I’ll be surprised if we are mauling teams. Also, Hudson is likely the best pass blocking center in the league, but his run blocking isn’t nearly as highly rated (though still miles above what we’ve gotten for years).

Beachum is well above average in pass pro, offset by sketchy run blocking
Murray is similar (and the inverse of Sweezy last year)

i think this should be a very good pass protection line

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Dallas did and that Emmitt guy could still manage a career average of 4.1 YPC

First, it was 4.2. Second it was a much different time. Third career averages for dudes that play into their twilight are relatively worthless.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Emmitt Smith almost had 1000 yards for us. Emmitt Smith.

That’s a good point. Our oline wasn’t very good either.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Let’s take it player by player:

Humphries is good
Pugh I suspect will be much improved playing next to Hudson
Hudson huge upgrade
Murray couldn’t beat out last years guard who we let walk
Beachum is average

the oline should be better, but I’ll be surprised if we are mauling teams. Also, Hudson is likely the best pass blocking center in the league, but his run blocking isn’t nearly as highly rated (though still miles above what we’ve gotten for years).

"Couldn't beat out" doesn't really matter. Justin Murray was noticeably better than Sweety.

The rest I agree with.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Beachum is well above average in pass pro, offset by sketchy run blocking
Murray is similar (and the inverse of Sweezy last year)

i think this should be a very good pass protection line

Agreed. But here we are focused on the run game.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

"Couldn't beat out" doesn't really matter. Justin Murray was noticeably better than Sweety.

The rest I agree with.

I see this argument all the time on ASFN. And my thought is always “we have no idea what their assignment is and whether they are actually executing as desired. There’s no way a well/respected oline coach is missing - with hours of film work -what posters claim to see and remaining with the underperforming player to their detriment.”

 

[Shane]

First, it was 4.2. Second it was a much different time. Third career averages for dudes that play into their twilight are relatively worthless.

lol

 

[BritCard]

if we keep forcing Kyler to play hero ball. And make no mistake, that's what you're asking him to do by not providing him a decent RB

Come on man. I just showed you the 2019 superbowl had 6 average RBs.

Every SB the Pats made the last 10 years was with a stable of average RBs. In fact they only have two 1000 yard runners in the past 10 years. Ridley in 2012 and Blount in 2016.

The Eagles won the SB with Blount, Ajayi and Clement.

Falcons made it with Freeman, Coleman, Ward.

Broncos won it with Hillman and Anderson.

Seahawks in 15 was Lynch, Turbin, Michael. This was the last time a SB finalist had a 1000 yard rusher. There's been 12 teams since then.

2011 Giants won it with Bradshaw, Jacobs, Ware. None of which had 600 yards.

Green Bay won it in 2010 with Jackson and Kuhn. Jackson had 700 yards.

Of the last 20 teams in the SB only 5 have had 1000 yard rushers. Mendenhall, Gore, Rice and Lynch twice. Only 2 of them won it.

That's 100% proof you don't need great RBs. A decent group will do it.

 

[QuebecCard]

Our OL was ranked 12th in the league per PFF. It's highest ever rank.

Hump had an elite year. Pugh and Beechum were solid. C and RG were problem areas, we fixed one of them with a top 3 center in the league. We still need to fix RG. Murray, Winters, or Jones are unlikely to be anything other than lumps of meat to slow the DL down.

The latter three are unlikely to be as bad as Sweezy, a true lump of meat last season.

 

[QuebecCard]

That’s not accurate. We have seen many great rbs have success without great lines. Barry sanders comes to mind. He never had the luxury of the line that emmitt did. Sequons lines haven’t been great either, more recently. And just last year drake, who no one believes is a great rb, almost 1,000 yards (again, your marker for success) behind an average to less than average cards offensive linemen.

Barry Sanders maybe the most elusive back in NFL history and it was still a - stuffed at line, or loss of three followed by a gain of 20. In contrast, Denver turned a host of pedestrian backs into 1000 yd rushers with their zone scheme.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Barry Sanders maybe the most elusive back in NFL history and it was still a - stuffed at line, or loss of three followed by a gain of 20. In contrast, Denver turned a host of pedestrian backs into 1000 yd rushers with their zone scheme.

True. What Denver did was astounding.

 

[Krangodnzr]

True. What Denver did was astounding.

It's essentially what the Niners and Rams are doing now...

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

It's essentially what the Niners and Rams are doing now...

In terms of overall rushing production, yes. But those Denver teams just made stars out of unheralded players.

 

[daves]

the Wayne Gallmans of the world might edge out 4 YPC when they'd otherwise average 2.

Weird - Gallman had 4.6 ypc last year - same as Saquon Barkley the year before.

...dbs

 

[daves]

We haven't done that. Trading for a center, a very good center, was massive because our OL was, apart from one player, atrocious to below average.

I certainly didn't think they were great, or even above average, but just to put things in perspective... according to PFF, the Cardinals' O-line was 12th best in the league.

...dbs

 

[BritCard]

The latter three are unlikely to be as bad as Sweezy, a true lump of meat last season.

I agree, they will be an improvement. I don't think any are the long term answer though and I wouldn't at all mind drafting at RG in round 2. There are some decent iOL guys expected to be around in the 2nd.

 

[BritCard]

Weird - Gallman had 4.6 ypc last year - same as Saquon Barkley the year before.

...dbs

If anything proves the theory it's that Wayne Gallman had the same YPC as Barkley. And it's not like Gallman had 20 carries. He had 150.

Behind the 31st ranked O line in 2020. They were 17th in 2019 for Barkley.

I like Gallman by the way. I had in in FF last year so watched him quite a bit (I generally see more East coast teams due to time difference). He's a decent back and had nearly 700 yards from scrimmage. He'd be a good 3rd back for us.

 

[BritCard]

Come on man. I just showed you the 2019 superbowl had 6 average RBs.

Every SB the Pats made the last 10 years was with a stable of average RBs. In fact they only have two 1000 yard runners in the past 10 years. Ridley in 2012 and Blount in 2016.

The Eagles won the SB with Blount, Ajayi and Clement.

Falcons made it with Freeman, Coleman, Ward.

Broncos won it with Hillman and Anderson.

Seahawks in 15 was Lynch, Turbin, Michael. This was the last time a SB finalist had a 1000 yard rusher. There's been 12 teams since then.

2011 Giants won it with Bradshaw, Jacobs, Ware. None of which had 600 yards.

Green Bay won it in 2010 with Jackson and Kuhn. Jackson had 700 yards.

Of the last 20 teams in the SB only 5 have had 1000 yard rushers. Mendenhall, Gore, Rice and Lynch twice. Only 2 of them won it.

That's 100% proof you don't need great RBs. A decent group will do it.

FYI I edited this today. One of the stats for Lynch was off by a year and I went back and did the last 10 SB's.

I think it's quite telling statistically.

Many more teams made it to the SB with a 600-700 yard back, a 400-500 yard back and a 100-200 yard back than those who had a bellcow.

 

[slanidrac16]

Come on man. I just showed you the 2019 superbowl had 6 average RBs.

Every SB the Pats made the last 10 years was with a stable of average RBs. In fact they only have two 1000 yard runners in the past 10 years. Ridley in 2012 and Blount in 2016.

The Eagles won the SB with Blount, Ajayi and Clement.

Falcons made it with Freeman, Coleman, Ward.

Broncos won it with Hillman and Anderson.

Seahawks in 15 was Lynch, Turbin, Michael. This was the last time a SB finalist had a 1000 yard rusher. There's been 12 teams since then.

2011 Giants won it with Bradshaw, Jacobs, Ware. None of which had 600 yards.

Green Bay won it in 2010 with Jackson and Kuhn. Jackson had 700 yards.

Of the last 20 teams in the SB only 5 have had 1000 yard rushers. Mendenhall, Gore, Rice and Lynch twice. Only 2 of them won it.

That's 100% proof you don't need great RBs. A decent group will do it.

Interesting. However, I think it’s worth noting the teams mentioned above COULD run the ball when they HAD to.

In today’s NFL you have to be able to get chunk plays and score td’s. Very seldom is a team going to put together six 12-13 play drives in a game. Inevitably penalties will stall a drive which takes a “ great running attack” out of play because they can’t overcome first and 20.

I would rather have 3 guys with 700 yards than one guy with 1300. And when you have the bell cow rb miss playing time it destroys the offense.

It use to be run the ball to set up the pass. Not today.

 

[Stout]

All of this info is great, yet it doesn't scream that we should be content with a poor RB room. All this talk about de-valuing the position doesn't mean you should be content with kitchen scraps. Right now, we have a poor RB room. It still needs move talent. Even if you're a fan of Chase and JC, which I'm meh to boo on both, what happens when one gets injured? Your season is over. Talk about what happens when a bell cow RB gets injured? How bad is it when your season is over if a Chase or JC gets injured? That doesn't equal a good RB room.

 

[BritCard]

Interesting. However, I think it’s worth noting the teams mentioned above COULD run the ball when they HAD to.

In today’s NFL you have to be able to get chunk plays and score td’s. Very seldom is a team going to put together six 12-13 play drives in a game. Inevitably penalties will stall a drive which takes a “ great running attack” out of play because they can’t overcome first and 20.

I would rather have 3 guys with 700 yards than one guy with 1300. And when you have the bell cow rb miss playing time it destroys the offense.

It use to be run the ball to set up the pass. Not today.

Exactly. Those teams could run the ball when they had to, but not because of any great talent at RB outside the odd guy there like Lynch. Most of those names were average at best RB's, they could run the ball because of good O lines, good coaching and good play calling.

I'm ok with our O line, it's above average. The coaching and play calling I'm not so sure about.

 

[BritCard]

All of this info is great, yet it doesn't scream that we should be content with a poor RB room. All this talk about de-valuing the position doesn't mean you should be content with kitchen scraps. Right now, we have a poor RB room. It still needs move talent. Even if you're a fan of Chase and JC, which I'm meh to boo on both, what happens when one gets injured? Your season is over. Talk about what happens when a bell cow RB gets injured? How bad is it when your season is over if a Chase or JC gets injured? That doesn't equal a good RB room.

I'm not sure how you can look at some of those backfields I listed for recent superbowl teams and be all that concerned.

If you are concerned our coaching, scheme and O line sucks and thus we need a miracle running back to make it work then fair enough, but then we should probably be more concerned about fixing those things than a running back.

I'm infinitely more concerned about Cornerback.