Kyler Murray Debate Thread

[kerouac9]

If it’s telephone via respected nfl coaches I’m good with it. And holy crap is that craptastic about Murray.

Since when is Brian Schottenheimer respected?!

 

[Chopper0080]

This is the soft bigotry of low expectations.

Have we really transitioned into the "He just needs to be Derek Carr" phase of the Kyler Murray Experience? Because he can't be that. Or maybe he can. I just did some charting of Kyler's per-game passer rating vs. Kirk Cousins and Baker Mayfield through their first 85 starts. They look basically the same, but Kyler's peaks and valleys aren't as frequent.

Passer rating doesn't account for running (obviously). Without running often and with confidence, maybe Kyler is Derek Carr.

That's depressing. But aiming for nine wins multiple seasons in a row is "Let's be the Saints" thinking. I thought the whole idea of the roster reset/tank job was that we lift the floor for the franchise?

What's depressing for me is repeatedly hiring and firing coaches and GMs. Consistently losing or horrible seasons. I want more, but I can settle with a 9 win floor with Kyler until the Cardinals can identify something better in the next two or three years. I don't think Kyler is going to get much better. IMO, he is what he is. I don't think the Cardinals are really wasting any player's futures. In 3 years, the only players who will be out of their prime is Conner and Baker. And Fro I guess.

Maybe Kyler will surprise me. I'm open to it even if I don't see it happening. I can settle for inconsistent Alex smith while we search for our Patrick Mahomes.

 

[Stout]

What's depressing for me is repeatedly hiring and firing coaches and GMs. Consistently losing or horrible seasons. I want more, but I can settle with a 9 win floor with Kyler until the Cardinals can identify something better in the next two or three years. I don't think Kyler is going to get much better. IMO, he is what he is. I don't think the Cardinals are really wasting any player's futures. In 3 years, the only players who will be out of their prime is Conner and Baker. And Fro I guess.

Maybe Kyler will surprise me. I'm open to it even if I don't see it happening. I can settle for inconsistent Alex smith while we search for our Patrick Mahomes.

That's QB purgatory and not where I want to live. Look at the Stillers. Winning seasons, no hope in the playoffs/no playoffs, no chance of snagging the QB they need to change that. No. Thank. You. If Kyler doesn't do it this year, move on and find someone who might be able to.

 

[kerouac9]

What's depressing for me is repeatedly hiring and firing coaches and GMs. Consistently losing or horrible seasons. I want more, but I can settle with a 9 win floor with Kyler until the Cardinals can identify something better in the next two or three years. I don't think Kyler is going to get much better. IMO, he is what he is. I don't think the Cardinals are really wasting any player's futures. In 3 years, the only players who will be out of their prime is Conner and Baker. And Fro I guess.

Maybe Kyler will surprise me. I'm open to it even if I don't see it happening. I can settle for inconsistent Alex smith while we search for our Patrick Mahomes.

Yeah, I'm not open to that.

I know we like Gannon and Monti so much, but they came in here expressing how much they loved Kyler and how sure they were he was the guy to lead us to the promised land. Why should we trust them to make the decision again?

If Monti and Gannon go 9-8 this season, they'll be 21-30 through three seasons. It would take them ANOTHER year just to get to .500 (and then they'd assuredly be fired).

Monti hasn't identified one outstanding starter. Not one! Why do you think he could find a plus starter at quarterback? He identified Clayton Tune, who has been so good we just invested $6.5 million guaranteed in a backup quarterback whose attempted 184 passes in the past two years! He brought/helped bring Joshua Dobbs into two different organizations! He was part of a front office who drafted Malik Willis in the third round.

Unfortunately, we're probably not getting a quarterback without suffering another horrible season. We can't cut Kyler until 2028; we can only trade him. Would anyone have traded for Kyler Murray this offseason if he'd been on the block? Would we have been able to get a top 15 pick for him?

Bleak times.

 

[PDXChris]

you're aging

Lies! Reported!

 

[602 Native]

You must be registered for see images attach

I would take him over Stafford in an heartbeat, does anyone seriously disagree?

Shots fired

 

[DaHilg]

Yeah, I'm not open to that.

I know we like Gannon and Monti so much, but they came in here expressing how much they loved Kyler and how sure they were he was the guy to lead us to the promised land. Why should we trust them to make the decision again?

If Monti and Gannon go 9-8 this season, they'll be 21-30 through three seasons. It would take them ANOTHER year just to get to .500 (and then they'd assuredly be fired).

Monti hasn't identified one outstanding starter. Not one! Why do you think he could find a plus starter at quarterback? He identified Clayton Tune, who has been so good we just invested $6.5 million guaranteed in a backup quarterback whose attempted 184 passes in the past two years! He brought/helped bring Joshua Dobbs into two different organizations! He was part of a front office who drafted Malik Willis in the third round.

Unfortunately, we're probably not getting a quarterback without suffering another horrible season. We can't cut Kyler until 2028; we can only trade him. Would anyone have traded for Kyler Murray this offseason if he'd been on the block? Would we have been able to get a top 15 pick for him?

Bleak times.

You had me until the last paragraph.. teams were desperate for a QB in this draft especially. He easily would have garnered a top 15 pick from a gm who thought he could fix him. Zero doubt in my mind. Talents there, so many variables that could lead one to think it was the rosters problem, it was the first time OC’s he’s endured as the problem, injuries etc. I’m not saying these are all of Kyler’s issues but certainly variables that have contributed to this team sucking.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

That's QB purgatory and not where I want to live. Look at the Stillers. Winning seasons, no hope in the playoffs/no playoffs, no chance of snagging the QB they need to change that. No. Thank. You. If Kyler doesn't do it this year, move on and find someone who might be able to.

I think this part is wrong. If they wanted to push a bunch of chips in they could get their QBOF. Look at the chiefs. They traded all the way up from slot 27 to 10 and gave up a third and their next year’s first. If we were a perennial 9 win team and the only thing holding back the team was Kyler, that means we are likely drafting somewhere in the 15-20 slots (per ChatGPT looking at average 9 win teams over the past 5 drafts - LOOK AT THE OLD GUY USING AI!!!). We could surely package enough picks to move up and snag a QB if a team near the beginning of the draft is open to trading.

 

[kerouac9]

I think this part is wrong. If they wanted to push a bunch of chips in they could get their QBOF. Look at the chiefs. They traded all the way up from slot 27 to 10 and gave up a third and their next year’s first. If we were a perennial 9 win team and the only thing holding back the team was Kyler, that means we are likely drafting somewhere in the 15-20 slots (per ChatGPT looking at average 9 win teams over the past 5 drafts - LOOK AT THE OLD GUY USING AI!!!). We could surely package enough picks to move up and snag a QB if a team near the beginning of the draft is open to trading.

Is that an outlier example tho? It happened eight years ago.

San Fran traded three firsts and a third to move from 12 to 3 to get Trey Lance.

Maybe Nix turns into a 10-year starter, but the mid-first QBs (between 11 and 25) since Mahomes have been:

Deshaun Watson
Dwayne Haskins
Justin Fields
Mac Jones
Kenny Pickett

Not exactly a murderer’s row

 

[602 Native]

Is that an outlier example tho? It happened eight years ago.

San Fran traded three firsts and a third to move from 12 to 3 to get Trey Lance.

Maybe Nix turns into a 10-year starter, but the mid-first QBs (between 11 and 25) since Mahomes have been:

Deshaun Watson
Dwayne Haskins
Justin Fields
Mac Jones
Kenny Pickett

Not exactly a murderer’s row

Sad list but also take into account who drafted them.

Mac was drafted by NE but they aren't exactly great drafters.

 

[daves]

I know we like Gannon and Monti so much, but they came in here expressing how much they loved Kyler and how sure they were he was the guy to lead us to the promised land.

Yeah, but that was before they got to know him and his annual post-COD "study" habits personally. Up until then he'd only had two bad half-seasons and it was reasonable for them to believe the problem was a culture issue with the outgoing regime, that they could fix.

Plus, most any incoming rookie coach & GM will express belief in a guy they know they're pretty much stuck with anyway. Payton had the cojones to move on from Wilson at huge cost after one season, but he has the gravitas to get away with it.

 

[unseenaz]

This is the soft bigotry of low expectations.

Have we really transitioned into the "He just needs to be Derek Carr" phase of the Kyler Murray Experience? Because he can't be that. Or maybe he can. I just did some charting of Kyler's per-game passer rating vs. Kirk Cousins and Baker Mayfield through their first 85 starts. They look basically the same, but Kyler's peaks and valleys aren't as frequent.

Passer rating doesn't account for running (obviously). Without running often and with confidence, maybe Kyler is Derek Carr.

That's depressing. But aiming for nine wins multiple seasons in a row is "Let's be the Saints" thinking. I thought the whole idea of the roster reset/tank job was that we lift the floor for the franchise?

I’d really like to see his records in games where the Cards were trailing by 10 or 14. He seems to play best when we are winning or ahead, but can’t play from behind.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Yeah, but that was before they got to know him and his annual post-COD "study" habits personally. Up until then he'd only had two bad half-seasons and it was reasonable for them to believe the problem was a culture issue with the outgoing regime, that they could fix.

It really is crazy just how bad Kyler consistently goes down the stretch of every single season of his Cardinals career, save the one season he missed the entire first half of.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Is that an outlier example tho? It happened eight years ago.

San Fran traded three firsts and a third to move from 12 to 3 to get Trey Lance.

Maybe Nix turns into a 10-year starter, but the mid-first QBs (between 11 and 25) since Mahomes have been:

Deshaun Watson
Dwayne Haskins
Justin Fields
Mac Jones
Kenny Pickett

Not exactly a murderer’s row

It again my point was that you’re not trading up from 27. You’re likely trading up from 15-20. And all you need is some one with a higher pick to already have a QB. Like let’s say the bears don’t improve materially this year and end up with a top 5 or 6 pick. With what could be a glut of QBs in this years draft you could trade a gaggle of picks and end up with the third QB. Josh Allen was drafted 7th. He was the third QB taken.

 

[DaHilg]

It really is crazy just how bad Kyler consistently goes down the stretch of every single season of his Cardinals career, save the one season he missed the entire first half of.

Ya context means nothing to the IHKC.. he’s been bad down the stretch but once again there’s been variables, primarily injuries and Hopkins suspension we can point to. This team has never had Oline depth or WR depth.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Ya context means nothing to the IHKC.. he’s been bad down the stretch but once again there’s been variables, primarily injuries and Hopkins suspension we can point to. This team has never had Oline depth or WR depth.

You’re right there have been a myriad of variables. But there’s really only one constant . . . makes a reasonable objective person wonder . . .

 

[kerouac9]

Like let’s say the bears don’t improve materially this year and end up with a top 5 or 6 pick. With what could be a glut of QBs in this years draft you could trade a gaggle of picks and end up with the third QB. Josh Allen was drafted 7th. He was the third QB taken.

Okay. I thought your point was that it wouldn’t take much to move from 17 (say) to seven and get a QB. Your example was KC giving up a third and future first to move up for Mahomes.

I agree it would take “a gaggle of picks” to move up and get a highly rated QB in the top 10.

 

[DaHilg]

You’re right there have been a myriad of variables. But there’s really only one constant . . . makes a reasonable objective person wonder . . .

Actually there’s been 2 constants.. Kyler’s bad play down the stretch and an oline missing multiple starters down the stretch. Let’s paint the correct picture and don’t just for your narrative of a hatred of a player

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Okay. I thought your point was that it wouldn’t take much to move from 17 (say) to seven and get a QB. Your example was KC giving up a third and future first to move up for Mahomes.

I agree it would take “a gaggle of picks” to move up and get a highly rated QB in the top 10.

The real point was that you can get your QBOF even if you’re winning 9 games a season.

 

[kerouac9]

The real point was that you can get your QBOF even if you’re winning 9 games a season.

Is it? Because you have a data point of 1, right?

 

[Cheesebeef]

Actually there’s been 2 constants.. Kyler’s bad play down the stretch and an oline missing multiple starters down the stretch. Let’s paint the correct picture and don’t just for your narrative of a hatred of a player

Almost zero NFL has a pristine O-Line down the stretch. That is a constant. Good QBs don’t all crinkle like toilet paper under those circumstances.

Don’t let your narrative of gushing fanboi love for a career loser paint an incorrect picture.

 

[GatorAZ]

Kyler isn’t capable of hanging tough in the pocket and throwing darts with pressure in his face. He’s a panicker because of his size. It’s not his fault.

For once our defense might be good enough to offset the fading QB play down the stretch. He’s never had a great defensive supporting cast. 2021 had a chance before Watt got hurt and Chandler fell off.

 

[BirdGangThing]

i think murray can still throw the deep ball - it's him not running that bothers me

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Is it? Because you have a data point of 1, right?

I think I just showed you two with mahomes and Allen. And realistically if Watson hadn’t been a sleaze he was proving to be a third. Then there are the later first round QBs like Lamar Jackson. Still definitely considered a QBOF when drafted.

The rookie QB is such a crapshoot that even if you get one high (as you point out, Trey lance went 3rd, Zach Wilson went 2nd) it doesn’t guarantee anything. So it’s ultimately about a combination of (1) talent identification; (2) availability; and (3) ability to get the pick necessary to make the selection. I’ve been talking about #3 and I’m pretty confident I’ve made a solid case.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Actually there’s been 2 constants.. Kyler’s bad play down the stretch and an oline missing multiple starters down the stretch. Let’s paint the correct picture and don’t just for your narrative of a hatred of a player

I don’t hate Kyler. I just don’t believe he has the mental makeup to take the next step.

And virtually every team has injuries down the stretch of a season. I doubt that the Cardinals are a massive outlier in that regard consistently over every one of Kyler’s seasons.