Kings @ Suns Friday game thread 12-8-2023

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Mainstreet

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We would not have had the success of the past 3 seasons but I believe we'd be in much better shape today if we'd kept building with what we had. Of course, that presumes we'd have used our picks wisely and made value trades - unfortunately our Sarver history indicates otherwise.

If we could only redo some of the more recent drafts starting in 2017 and move forward.

Yeah, I would have never traded Mikal Bridges.
 
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Mainstreet

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It doesn't invalidate his point. Whether Lee plays 1 minute or 5 minutes, he's all about getting his shot off rather than distributing. Not that it matters as he's obviously at the tail end of the bench along with Bol.

I don't see Saban Lee that way. He is a very hard worker who plays tenacious defense and can get to the rim. Lee is a hometown kid that would do anything to make the team. I don't see a selfish bone in his body.

His career turnover ratio is 3.1 to 1, not bad for a player still learning the game. I hope the Suns can keep him because I think the main thing he needs is minutes.
 

AzStevenCal

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I don't see Saban Lee that way. He is a very hard worker who plays tenacious defense and can get to the rim. Lee is a hometown kid that would do anything to make the team. I don't see a selfish bone in his body.

His career turnover ratio is 3.1 to 1, not bad for a player still learning the game. I hope the Suns can keep him because I think the main thing he needs is minutes.
I think he's a better scorer than he is a distributor so I'm okay with him being a score first guard, as long as he isn't forcing bad shots. I'd like to see him get more time and get a chance to settle into the position, it's tough to tell what somebody really is when they mostly come in for a couple minutes of garbage time.
 

Superbone

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I think he's a better scorer than he is a distributor so I'm okay with him being a score first guard, as long as he isn't forcing bad shots. I'd like to see him get more time and get a chance to settle into the position, it's tough to tell what somebody really is when they mostly come in for a couple minutes of garbage time.
And there is nothing wrong with score first point guards. Steph Curry is one. It's just not what this particular team needs.
 

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Saben is very strong and athletic, and a good defender. Not a good distributor but attacks the rim with force. His 3pt shot is too flat which makes him a lesser fit to play along big 3. But he might be better at the PG duty than Goodwin, Allen, EG.
 
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Saben is very strong and athletic, and a good defender. Not a good distributor but attacks the rim with force. His 3pt shot is too flat which makes him a lesser fit to play along big 3. But he might be better at the PG duty than Goodwin, Allen, EG.

I think Saban Lee is probably relegated to the end of the bench (TW) this season, but next season might be another matter.

A number of the Suns minimum type players will likely move on.
 

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Monty and Vogel got a couple things in common - like playing Josh Okogie a lot regardless of his shot and leaving Saben Lee way down at the end of the bench
Vogel has not had a fair chance. Monty had a complete balanced roster, and to his credit got them to the Finals once. Vogel has inherited a roster without a PG, without defensive length at the perimeter, and injury prone stars who the roster was built around. Despite that, the team sits at 7th with 12-10 record. If I told anyone before the season that the team would have 0 games with Beal/Durant/Book, about 10 games with Book/Durant and Beal total 3, not many would say our record is better than 12-10.

What I really wish to see is better roster balance, and health. Then we can know what we have. Will we get it? Who knows.
 

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We have almost completely turned this roster over. Turned the coaching staff over. And even changed the owner and president. Still..... we can't seem to field a team that doesn't get bullied all over the court.

This team is no fun to watch IMO either and everyone seems to be saying the same thing publicly..... We have to hold the fort down until we get everyone back but even that may be fools gold at this point...... How long can they all stay healthy? We have a bit of data now on all of them and it ain't looking good folks. We've played 25% of the season and haven't had all of them once yet. And may only get all of them for 20 combined regular season games.
 

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Vogel has not had a fair chance. Monty had a complete balanced roster, and to his credit got them to the Finals once. Vogel has inherited a roster without a PG, without defensive length at the perimeter, and injury prone stars who the roster was built around. Despite that, the team sits at 7th with 12-10 record. If I told anyone before the season that the team would have 0 games with Beal/Durant/Book, about 10 games with Book/Durant and Beal total 3, not many would say our record is better than 12-10.

What I really wish to see is better roster balance, and health. Then we can know what we have. Will we get it? Who knows.
Vogel helped build this roster. He's also the one that is deciding what product to put on the floor. His vaunted defensive acumen has been MIA most of the season as well.

Enough with the free passes -- Vogel and his staff are just as culpable to our record as the players are. The coach's job is to put the players in a position to succeed -- we just happen to have a couple players that can affect a game despite those coaching failures. Unfortunately, those couple players haven't been on the floor very much so far this season.
 

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If we could only redo some of the more recent drafts starting in 2017 and move forward.

Yeah, I would have never traded Mikal Bridges.
So basically, We would have Bridges, and Cam. Toumani Camara, and possibly another Camara/Jalen Smith plus Chris Paul.
 
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So basically, We would have Bridges, and Cam. Toumani Camara, and possibly another Camara/Jalen Smith plus Chris Paul.

Only if this is the best you can do.
 

1982baskets

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Vogel helped build this roster. He's also the one that is deciding what product to put on the floor. His vaunted defensive acumen has been MIA most of the season as well.

Enough with the free passes -- Vogel and his staff are just as culpable to our record as the players are. The coach's job is to put the players in a position to succeed -- we just happen to have a couple players that can affect a game despite those coaching failures. Unfortunately, those couple players haven't been on the floor very much so far this season.
Ok, but then the staff deserves recognition for the improved offense. Last year the team was a middle of the pack offense team, rated 15th in the league. This year despite all the injuries we've been top 8-9. If you look at games with Book, we're top 5. That's without Beal and a roster that has too many one way players (Such as Gordon, Allen, Okogie, KDB, Goodwin effective only one side of the ball).

So if we blame the staff for defense being ordinary to below average, we should credit them for the offense being better than it should be, with all the injuries.

My opinion is that this is a GM roster building issue. Was clear to many pre-season. Didn't have a quality point guard, even a backup. Didn't have enough two way perimeter players. Looking at the injury history of Beal and even KD, no one should be surprised at all the time missed. KD was a Net for a bit, and so was Kyrie/Harden, they end up playing 16 games in 2 seasons. These injuries, lack of two way perimeter players, this isn't on the coaches. The coaches can't execute their schemes unless the personnel is there.

I mean, is Pop a really bad coach? The Spurs have lost like something like 20 straight.
 

Proximo

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Monty and Vogel got a couple things in common - like playing Josh Okogie a lot regardless of his shot and leaving Saben Lee way down at the end of the bench
Makes sense to me, Okogie can cause defensive havoc, and occasionally he has a good shooting night, you pretty much have to give him a chance so you catch one of his good nights.

Saben Lee does nothing better than anyone already getting playing time, he shouldn't get off the bench.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Makes sense to me, Okogie can cause defensive havoc, and occasionally he has a good shooting night, you pretty much have to give him a chance so you catch one of his good nights.

Saben Lee does nothing better than anyone already getting playing time, he shouldn't get off the bench.
These seem to be fewer and fewer in occurrence.
 

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Makes sense to me, Okogie can cause defensive havoc, and occasionally he has a good shooting night, you pretty much have to give him a chance so you catch one of his good nights.
I agree, and this should be extended to all the role players. It's a tough balance though, you need to get some of these guys time to get a rhythm, but if they don't have it, gotta move on to the next guy to see if they have it. Okogie, Little, Yuta, KBD and to a slightly lesser extent Allen and Gordon should be cycled out if they're not hitting shots.
 

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Okogie gets no respect from defense, even when he's making shots, so if he's missing then he needs to sit. He shouldn't see playing time in the second half if his shot is off. He has no one to blame but himself for it. He should have worked all off-season to improve his shooting but he's less efficient now with more space.
 

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Heard a rumor today that PJ Tucker might be coming back to PHX.
 

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Okogie gets no respect from defense, even when he's making shots, so if he's missing then he needs to sit. He shouldn't see playing time in the second half if his shot is off. He has no one to blame but himself for it. He should have worked all off-season to improve his shooting but he's less efficient now with more space.
I just don't think he's a stand in the corner shooter and by forcing him into that role, he's living and dying with his worst option.
 

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I just don't think he's a stand in the corner shooter and by forcing him into that role, he's living and dying with his worst option.
Except that's how teams roll in the playoffs. They leave open your worst scorers and double your best. He has to adjust, or he won't play, period.
 

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I just don't think he's a stand in the corner shooter and by forcing him into that role, he's living and dying with his worst option.

Will top pg goes to book. Top scorer goes to KD. Beal when he comes back.
Outside of Gordon and Allen, the rest of the guys are expected to knock down shots when they are open, corner or not. So I’m not sure what other role he can play, definitely not center.
 
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Mainstreet

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I just don't think he's a stand in the corner shooter and by forcing him into that role, he's living and dying with his worst option.

The same thing was forced upon Jalen Smith in Phoenix.
 

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