John Brown, best of the best

[JCSunsfan]

Gambo was saying today that the 2014 wide receiver class has been, so far, the best in NFL history. And this year, John Brown is the best receiver in that class.

Thought it was interesting.

 

[GiantCardFan]

He's had some nice games. I wouldn't call him a star yet

 

[dreamcastrocks]

He's had some nice games. I wouldn't call him a star yet

+1. He also faded the first half of his rookie season and parts of this season as well. He definitely is a good player, but he is inconsistent at this stage of his career. He's young though with a TON of potential.

 

[Russ Smith]

He's not Beckham or one of those guys but he's a pretty good poor mans imitation of Antonio Brown.

I don't think people grasp how many PI's the kid is drawing, seems every week he draws one. He is drawing coverage which has opened up Fitz and eventually Floyd. He's been terrific.

He's not getting a ton of TD's yet but not all his fault. He had one drop, Palmer missed him last week, and he's had 2-3 where they interfered with him to stop a TD.

He's not a top 10 guy but he's getting close to DeSean Jackson at his best.

 

[BigRedRage]

+1. He also faded the first half of his rookie season and parts of this season as well. He definitely is a good player, but he is inconsistent at this stage of his career. He's young though with a TON of potential.

I expect some of that in our offense though. Too many options

Sent from my XT1056 using Tapatalk

 

[NashDishesDimes]

Yes thank you for bringing this up, he was a huge overlooked bright spot. I think last game was JBs welcome to the big time game. He is a top 20 receiver all bias aside. He draws tons of PIs, he plays so big for his size, he is very strong for his size, and a great route runner. Best of all, he is a good dude and plays with a ton of passion. All those things considered, top 20 no doubt.

 

[sunsfan88]

I don't think he's on OBJ's level yet. Especially if OBJ had a qb like Palmer, his numbers would be even better.

I think Robinson and Bryant are probably a tier above him as well but he's right in there with guys like Watkins, Hurns, Evans etc.

 

[Darkside]

I think JB is better than given credit for. He's not as injured as Watkins (and frankly not a diva like Watkins, calling for more balls in the media) and he doesn't get the targets of a guy like Beckham. When he does get the targets, like Sunday, look what he did.

JB isn't our only weapon, Palmer has options. To put up the #s he does, with the # of weapons we have, speaks volumes.

JB has an advantage over guys like Beckham, Watkins, and others, because he learns from Fitz, gets coached up by Palmer, and works with guys like Tom Moore and BA. He has superior grooming over any other receiver in the league. Look at his improvement from last year to this year, and he was pretty good last year. JB has a supporting cast of vets and coaches who won't let him fail.

Compare his improvement from one year to the next, to that of a guy like Floyd. Same staff, same opportunities. JB is talented, smart, and driven. Do we know what his ceiling is? Nope. Tom Moore, BA, Fitzgerald, and Carson Palmer keep elevating his ceiling in ways he probably hasn't even realized yet.

 

[Darkside]

I don't think he's on OBJ's level yet. Especially if OBJ had a qb like Palmer, his numbers would be even better.

You're implying Palmer is a better QB than Eli Manning. 2 SB rings would suggest otherwise.

Give Eli this team with our weapons and he would destroy football.

Eli has won SBs with lesser teams than ours. And he plays in the NY market, where every day they tell him how bad he sucks. He's unflappable, after years of it. Mental toughness matters, it's the difference between winning playoff games and SBs and throwing picks in the end zone.

Other than playing for us, what has Carson done?

 

[Russ Smith]

You're implying Palmer is a better QB than Eli Manning. 2 SB rings would suggest otherwise.

Give Eli this team with our weapons and he would destroy football.

Eli has won SBs with lesser teams than ours. And he plays in the NY market, where every day they tell him how bad he sucks. He's unflappable, after years of it. Mental toughness matters, it's the difference between winning playoff games and SBs and throwing picks in the end zone.

Other than playing for us, what has Carson done?

I think Eli has certainly had a terrific career but honestly those SB teams were really good teams.

If you just took the names away and compared the numbers I think you'd be surprised how close he and Palmer actually are.

Palmer has 150 career games, Eli 175.

TD's 238 to 270, fairly comparable Palmer actually a bit better rate.
INT's 160 to 189 again fairly comparable.
Fumbles 45 to 68, Eli fumbles more.
Passer rating 87 to 82 advantage Palmer

The big difference is of course postseason, Palmer has only been there twice and only 37 attempts total. Eli had a couple of really good postseasons 07 and 11. Of course much of that is opportunity, hard to put up good stats in the postseason if you never make it.

I'm of the opinion that Eli is a very good QB who played on some great teams, where Palmer is a really good QB who played on some pretty bad teams. Point being the numbers are pretty close and I would argue Palmer played in much worse situations. The counter being Eli played with much more pressure and expectations in New York, nobody expected the Bengals to win.

I don't think there's a huge difference between them and I don't think Eli would set the league on fire here. I will give him credit he's off to a pretty good start considering the WR situation there being so short handed.

 

[Mitch]

The Cardinals need to have Carson Palmer take a page out of Kurt Warner's book, which is to avoid trying to keep certain players happy with touches, in favor of distributing the ball to the open man regardless of who is open---there is no question that Palmer has developed quite a rapport with Smokey Brown, and Smokey has warranted the attention and that Palmer is trying his best to get Fitz as many touches as possible---and now it looks like Palmer is trying to re-establish a chemistry with Michael Floyd---and then Palmer has been trying to get the ball to Jemaine Greshman but forcing it to him which resulted in a key dropped third down versus the Rams and a key momentum changing interception versus the Steelers (even though it looked like there was PI on the play---but as we saw that's not a call teams usually get on the road).

The point is---Carson Palmer has to play his game and pass strictly to the open man---that is what is going to win games.

 

[Darkside]

I think Eli has certainly had a terrific career but honestly those SB teams were really good teams.

If you just took the names away and compared the numbers I think you'd be surprised how close he and Palmer actually are.

Palmer has 150 career games, Eli 175.

TD's 238 to 270, fairly comparable Palmer actually a bit better rate.
INT's 160 to 189 again fairly comparable.
Fumbles 45 to 68, Eli fumbles more.
Passer rating 87 to 82 advantage Palmer

The big difference is of course postseason, Palmer has only been there twice and only 37 attempts total. Eli had a couple of really good postseasons 07 and 11. Of course much of that is opportunity, hard to put up good stats in the postseason if you never make it.

I'm of the opinion that Eli is a very good QB who played on some great teams, where Palmer is a really good QB who played on some pretty bad teams. Point being the numbers are pretty close and I would argue Palmer played in much worse situations. The counter being Eli played with much more pressure and expectations in New York, nobody expected the Bengals to win.

I don't think there's a huge difference between them and I don't think Eli would set the league on fire here. I will give him credit he's off to a pretty good start considering the WR situation there being so short handed.

Agree with most of this. But honestly, to have similar career #s, and yet Eli winning playoff games and getting two SBs...That's a huge disparity. It's the difference between good and great.

And his team's weren't stacked. One year they had one of the lowest ranked offensive lines ever.

He elevated average offenses because they knew he was clutch. He's mentally tough enough to grind out wins.

 

[sunsfan88]

You're implying Palmer is a better QB than Eli Manning. 2 SB rings would suggest otherwise.

Give Eli this team with our weapons and he would destroy football.

Eli has won SBs with lesser teams than ours. And he plays in the NY market, where every day they tell him how bad he sucks. He's unflappable, after years of it. Mental toughness matters, it's the difference between winning playoff games and SBs and throwing picks in the end zone.

Other than playing for us, what has Carson done?

Eli won SBs because of his defense, elite OL and good running game. Eli's first super bowl, their offense scored a whooping 17 pts. The Giants defense held one of the best offenses EVER featuring prime Moss and prime Welker to 14 pts.

Eli is not that good, he's not even a top 8 QB in the league. Winning super bowls don't make you elite or else someone needs to tell Joe Flacco and Trent Dilfer that.

 

[Darkside]

Eli won SBs because of his defense, elite OL and good running game. Eli's first super bowl, their offense scored a whooping 17 pts. The Giants defense held one of the best offenses EVER featuring prime Moss and prime Welker to 14 pts.

Eli is not that good, he's not even a top 8 QB in the league. Winning super bowls don't make you elite or else someone needs to tell Joe Flacco and Trent Dilfer that.

I only claimed he was better than Carson Palmer, not elite.

 

[Jetstream Green]

The Cardinals need to have Carson Palmer take a page out of Kurt Warner's book, which is to avoid trying to keep certain players happy with touches, in favor of distributing the ball to the open man regardless of who is open---there is no question that Palmer has developed quite a rapport with Smokey Brown, and Smokey has warranted the attention and that Palmer is trying his best to get Fitz as many touches as possible---and now it looks like Palmer is trying to re-establish a chemistry with Michael Floyd---and then Palmer has been trying to get the ball to Jemaine Greshman but forcing it to him which resulted in a key dropped third down versus the Rams and a key momentum changing interception versus the Steelers (even though it looked like there was PI on the play---but as we saw that's not a call teams usually get on the road).

The point is---Carson Palmer has to play his game and pass strictly to the open man---that is what is going to win games.

I think with all the names you mentioned, it would suggest he is not trying to please any one player but if he has one tendency... it is focusing on Brown but then again he seems to be the guy with speed which Arians requires to be the target on three to five deep shots a game in my opinion

 

[GatorAZ]

Carson and Eli are the same person. Talented passers with highly questionable judgement. Legacy is one thing but I'd take Palmer on this team over Eli.

 

[Russ Smith]

Agree with most of this. But honestly, to have similar career #s, and yet Eli winning playoff games and getting two SBs...That's a huge disparity. It's the difference between good and great.

And his team's weren't stacked. One year they had one of the lowest ranked offensive lines ever.

He elevated average offenses because they knew he was clutch. He's mentally tough enough to grind out wins.

I think those teams won because they were great teams with good defenses and run games.

Eli was certainly good but his best years aren't any better statistically than Palmers were. It's just he played on a better team.

I didn't look at the situational split stats it's certainly possible he's a better 4th quarter QB or last few minutes, I didn't look, but my impression is he's just been on teams that were good enough to get there.

He has certainly been on teams that went further than you think they should have statistically and teams that didn't.

I will admit he has played exceptionally well in the 2 Super Bowl wins.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I think those teams won because they were great teams with good defenses and run games.

Eli was certainly good but his best years aren't any better statistically than Palmers were. It's just he played on a better team.

I didn't look at the situational split stats it's certainly possible he's a better 4th quarter QB or last few minutes, I didn't look, but my impression is he's just been on teams that were good enough to get there.

He has certainly been on teams that went further than you think they should have statistically and teams that didn't.

I will admit he has played exceptionally well in the 2 Super Bowl wins.

they were GREAT teams? The 2007 team was 10-6 and the defense was good ranking at #7, but not great. And the 2011 team was 9-7 with a defense ranked #27!

Those weren't great teams by any stretch of the imagination. They were good teams and then Eli was behind solid in the 2007 run with a very good D, but he was next level great in the 2011 run with a D that wasn't nearly as good, but could generate pressure. Thinking anything else seems like revisionist history.

 

[Russ Smith]

they were GREAT teams? The 2007 team was 10-6 and the defense was good ranking at #7, but not great. And the 2011 team was 9-7 with a defense ranked #27!

Those weren't great teams by any stretch of the imagination. They were good teams and then Eli was behind solid in the 2007 run with a very good D, but he was next level great in the 2011 run with a D that wasn't nearly as good, but could generate pressure. Thinking anything else seems like revisionist history.

2011 great is an exaggeration but the reason they finished with only 9 wins is they had a very tough schedule. They had a stretch midseason where they lost so SF, Philly, NO and GB to go from 6-2 to 6-6. Those 4 teams won 13, 8, 13 and 15 games that year. All but one of those games was decided by a TD or less so they were in fact a good team.

If you look at their schedule they lost twice to the 5-11 Washington team otherwise not a bad loss on the schedule. The next worst loss was to 7-9 Seattle. And if you look at those losses the common denominator in most of them was Eli Manning turning the ball over.

The defense got a ton of sacks and forced 31 TO's so while not statistically good they weren't exactly a bad defense that got carried by Eli.

He's had a very good career, he's a very good player but those 2 SB's were not Eli carrying the team, they were good teams that peaked at the right time and that included Eli.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I think with all the names you mentioned, it would suggest he is not trying to please any one player but if he has one tendency... it is focusing on Brown but then again he seems to be the guy with speed which Arians requires to be the target on three to five deep shots a game in my opinion

Funny I was thinking the same thing. Mitch essentially made the argument that rebutted his point. He argues that Carson is forcing the ball, then lists four guys (without even bringing up RBs) to whom he's forcing it? Funny.

 

[Mitch]

Funny I was thinking the same thing. Mitch essentially made the argument that rebutted his point. He argues that Carson is forcing the ball, then lists four guys (without even bringing up RBs) to whom he's forcing it? Funny.

Yeah, it did seem like I contradicted myself. It looks to me, and that Carson Palmer has a pre-set notion each play of which WR or TE he wants to feed right then and there. If you notice, he doesn't do a lot of looking off---and it just seems to me that he goes to Smokey, Fitz and now Floyd in bunches. The passes that I think have looked the most forced are the ones to Jermaine Gresham and those have been costly in both losses.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Funny I was thinking the same thing. Mitch essentially made the argument that rebutted his point. He argues that Carson is forcing the ball, then lists four guys (without even bringing up RBs) to whom he's forcing it? Funny.

It's not that he is forcing the ball to any one specific player, but that he is forcing it deep down the field. This is where his interceptions are coming from because he decides to try and make the big play even when there is safety help on the play.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

2011 great is an exaggeration but the reason they finished with only 9 wins is they had a very tough schedule. They had a stretch midseason where they lost so SF, Philly, NO and GB to go from 6-2 to 6-6. Those 4 teams won 13, 8, 13 and 15 games that year. All but one of those games was decided by a TD or less so they were in fact a good team.

If you look at their schedule they lost twice to the 5-11 Washington team otherwise not a bad loss on the schedule. The next worst loss was to 7-9 Seattle. And if you look at those losses the common denominator in most of them was Eli Manning turning the ball over.

The defense got a ton of sacks and forced 31 TO's so while not statistically good they weren't exactly a bad defense that got carried by Eli.

He's had a very good career, he's a very good player but those 2 SB's were not Eli carrying the team, they were good teams that peaked at the right time and that included Eli.

They gave up 25 points per game in 2011 which ranked 25th. That is at least a pretty bad defense. That being said those are only the regular season stats as they only allowed 14 points per game in the playoffs. Thus they really stepped it up when it mattered most and therefor it certainly isn't fair to say that Eli carried them to a SB that year. They actually gave up no more than 20 points in any of there games in either SB run which is even more impressive when you consider that 7 of the 8 games in those 2 runs were on the road.

 

[Cheesebeef]

They gave up 25 points per game in 2011 which ranked 25th. That is at least a pretty bad defense. That being said those are only the regular season stats as they only allowed 14 points per game in the playoffs. Thus they really stepped it up when it mattered most and therefor it certainly isn't fair to say that Eli carried them to a SB that year. They actually gave up no more than 20 points in any of there games in either SB run which is even more impressive when you consider that 7 of the 8 games in those 2 runs were on the road.

Did anyone ever say Eli carried the team in 2011? I said he played at an elite level, which he did with 1254 yards, 9 TDs and 1 pick with a 65% completion percentage in 4 games. Which as you noted, is even more impressive when you consider none of them were home games.

 

[Buckybird]

2011 great is an exaggeration but the reason they finished with only 9 wins is they had a very tough schedule. They had a stretch midseason where they lost so SF, Philly, NO and GB to go from 6-2 to 6-6. Those 4 teams won 13, 8, 13 and 15 games that year. All but one of those games was decided by a TD or less so they were in fact a good team.

If you look at their schedule they lost twice to the 5-11 Washington team otherwise not a bad loss on the schedule. The next worst loss was to 7-9 Seattle. And if you look at those losses the common denominator in most of them was Eli Manning turning the ball over.

The defense got a ton of sacks and forced 31 TO's so while not statistically good they weren't exactly a bad defense that got carried by Eli.

He's had a very good career, he's a very good player but those 2 SB's were not Eli carrying the team, they were good teams that peaked at the right time and that included Eli.

Funny thing is the Gmen shouldn't even have been in the playoffs with the gift of Hicks fumbling against the Cards that was overruled because he gave himself up lol And yet they won the SB at the Big Reds expense.

Sorry Cheese I couldn't resist.