Interesting stats when Kyler runs the ball.

cardcrazy

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In the 12 games Murray has carried the football at least 10 times, the Cardinals sport a 10-2 record.

Widen that metric to at least five totes per game for Murray and Arizona is still over .500 at 26-20.

But 0-13-1 record when he has carried less than 5 times.
 
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Big Deal

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I say run him or trade him…don’t try to change him.
I 100% agree with this. If the left foot versus right foot isn't going to make a vast improvement then why are the coaches preaching it? If we have a crappy oline, why aren't we calling planned rollouts where he succeeds to at least confuse the defense a little bit. I really don't like when coaches don't maximize the strengths of players, it rarely seems to work out well.
 

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I say run him or trade him…don’t try to change him.

Obviously this past Sunday it was a conscious choice not to used designed runs for Murray.

He rushed six times vs. ATL, seven vs. HOU and then then only once vs. LA.

The question is why?

Like @cardcrazy pointed out, the path to winning is using K1's elite mobility. So why did we not try to do that this past Sunday?

And also if were really and currently auditioning him to be our QBOF, why not let him showcase his entire skill set?
 

reebokalone2001

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I 100% agree with this. If the left foot versus right foot isn't going to make a vast improvement then why are the coaches preaching it? If we have a crappy oline, why aren't we calling planned rollouts where he succeeds to at least confuse the defense a little bit. I really don't like when coaches don't maximize the strengths of players, it rarely seems to work out well.
I tend to agree with what Harry said that the coaches now are not thinking about winning at all but evaluating if Murray can play like a pocket passer by asking him to play within the structure.
 

urs

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Last week's gameplan was extremely puzzling. I was all on board with this staff, even through all the losses, but my patience is wearing down. I'm not even expecting a lot of wins, but win the winnable games and at least have a competent plan in place. Zero designed runs other than the goal line carry is actively trying to lose IMO
 

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I 100% agree with this. If the left foot versus right foot isn't going to make a vast improvement then why are the coaches preaching it? If we have a crappy oline, why aren't we calling planned rollouts where he succeeds to at least confuse the defense a little bit. I really don't like when coaches don't maximize the strengths of players, it rarely seems to work out well.

Yes, there's a bizarre disconnect between how Petzing says left foot/right foot forward really doesn't matter much and also left foot forward is the best and most important thing. Is this offense so fragile that you have to remake the mechanics of every veteran quarterback to function?

OTOH, I'm fine not running a bunch of QB rollouts and bootlegs when winning games isn't a priority. The more important thing is encouraging Kyler to make rhythm passes and letting him study the results on-film. At this point, there's no other time to do this than in games.

I think they're trying to take away a few of Kyler's easy buttons to encourage progress over the next year.
 

cheesebeef

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Yes, there's a bizarre disconnect between how Petzing says left foot/right foot forward really doesn't matter much and also left foot forward is the best and most important thing. Is this offense so fragile that you have to remake the mechanics of every veteran quarterback to function?

OTOH, I'm fine not running a bunch of QB rollouts and bootlegs when winning games isn't a priority. The more important thing is encouraging Kyler to make rhythm passes and letting him study the results on-film. At this point, there's no other time to do this than in games.

I think they're trying to take away a few of Kyler's easy buttons to encourage progress over the next year.
I also think they’re limiting his exposure to big hits running around, just in case there’s a world where he can be traded in the off-season. He goes down with another injury and this team is even more behind the 8 ball than they already are.
 

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I also think they’re limiting his exposure to big hits running around, just in case there’s a world where he can be traded in the off-season. He goes down with another injury and this team is even more behind the 8 ball than they already are.
100%
I was just going to say the team is exposing Kyler to a big hit or injury.

Heck he got injured on a non contact play.
 

Stout

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In the 12 games Murray has carried the football at least 10 times, the Cardinals sport a 10-2 record.

Widen that metric to at least five totes per game for Murray and Arizona is still over .500 at 26-20.

But 0-13-1 record when he has carried less than 5 times.
That bodes very poorly for his career. If you have to rely on running or be erased as a QB, you are not legit.
 

RON_IN_OC

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Obviously this past Sunday it was a conscious choice not to used designed runs for Murray.

He rushed six times vs. ATL, seven vs. HOU and then then only once vs. LA.

The question is why?
I think they want to make sure he can play within the offense, first and foremost, and not just run at the 1st sight of a defender in his face. Sean Peyton talked about similar regarding Murray last season...that he can't just be relied upon to be the bulk of the offense.
 

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I also think they’re limiting his exposure to big hits running around, just in case there’s a world where he can be traded in the off-season. He goes down with another injury and this team is even more behind the 8 ball than they already are.
the thing is:

he is really good at avoiding those hits, especially when running

and the boot action stuff makes it easy to avoid a hit ---

it feels like the odds of a bad injury are higher in the pocket than out of it
 

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That bodes very poorly for his career. If you have to rely on running or be erased as a QB, you are not legit.
It’s not relying on running Stout… it’s making it a threat that defense has to think about. Lamar and Hurts have always been far less accurate passers than Kyler all the way back to all of college… the schemes were designed around the threat of the run to open up the receivers more in lanes of the throws that they can make… including deep throws as the defense is always leaning fwd for fear of the run.
 

football karma

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I also think they’re limiting his exposure to big hits running around, just in case there’s a world where he can be traded in the off-season. He goes down with another injury and this team is even more behind the 8 ball than they already are.
the thing is:

he is really good at avoiding those hits, especially when running

and the boot action stuff makes it easy to avoid a hit ---

it feels like the odds of a bad injury are higher in the pocket than out of it
 

Stout

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It’s not relying on running Stout… it’s making it a threat that defense has to think about. Lamar and Hurts have always been far less accurate passers than Kyler all the way back to all of college… the schemes were designed around the threat of the run to open up the receivers more in lanes of the throws that they can make… including deep throws as the defense is always leaning fwd for fear of the run.
While I agree that the threat of the run definitely helps running QBs, there has to be a limit and the QB has to have success doing so. Sure, Kyler can make some amazing splash plays, but he hasn't had any success in clutch situations in-season and in the postseason. Lamar and Hurts have more than earned the benefit of the doubt, however, with the success they've had. Kyler hasn't, so the same benefit of the doubt doesn't apply. He hasn't been good enough relying on the threat of the run--he needs to be better as a throwing QB. Should he achieve some of the success those guys have, the conversation will change.
 

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While I agree that the threat of the run definitely helps running QBs, there has to be a limit and the QB has to have success doing so. Sure, Kyler can make some amazing splash plays, but he hasn't had any success in clutch situations in-season and in the postseason. Lamar and Hurts have more than earned the benefit of the doubt, however, with the success they've had. Kyler hasn't, so the same benefit of the doubt doesn't apply. He hasn't been good enough relying on the threat of the run--he needs to be better as a throwing QB. Should he achieve some of the success those guys have, the conversation will change.

I don't know if this is entirely fair. There are a lot of different kinds of clutch situations, and to me the Hail Murray and OT run against the Raiders count as shining examples that immediately come to mind.

You can definitely and fairly argue that he's come up short in big games, but I also think you can reasonably say that Kliff Kingsbury might've also had a lot to do with that.

The steel man argument for this travesty of a season is that Gannon and Petzing are trying to establish habits with Kyler and the rest of the team that will limit the need for heroics to big games, and make games against an Vegas team that finished the 2022 season 6-11 routine wins.
 
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cardcrazy

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That bodes very poorly for his career. If you have to rely on running or be erased as a QB, you are not legit.
I would say not “rely” on running but remain a pass first QB and use running as a threat to keep the defense on their heels. Have a few designed runs per game to remind them.
And… “erased as a QB”?
 

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I would say not “rely” on running but remain a pass first QB and use running as a threat to keep the defense on their heels. Have a few designed runs per game to remind them.
And… “erased as a QB”?

I think the word @Stout was looking for maybe was "nullified" or something similar Cardcrazy. haha.

I agree K1's mobility is a weapon that can truly differentiate our offense's ability to move the ball vs. a conventional offense, and (and!) make us lethal in the red zone.

Murray's running is a cheat code. If we don't run him ten times a game, we're wasting his talent, and limiting our offense's potential.
 

Stout

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I don't know if this is entirely fair. There are a lot of different kinds of clutch situations, and to me the Hail Murray and OT run against the Raiders count as shining examples that immediately come to mind.

You can definitely and fairly argue that he's come up short in big games, but I also think you can reasonably say that Kliff Kingsbury might've also had a lot to do with that.

The steel man argument for this travesty of a season is that Gannon and Petzing are trying to establish habits with Kyler and the rest of the team that will limit the need for heroics to big games, and make games against an Vegas team that finished the 2022 season 6-11 routine wins.
Regular season games where nothing but a W is on the line, sure. We simply cannot ignore how awful he has been in playoff-clinching games and the one playoff game, though, regardless of the coaching. It's been bad, and in more than a few of those games. That is anti-clutch.
 

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That bodes very poorly for his career. If you have to rely on running or be erased as a QB, you are not legit.
Again I agree. Running is fine but you have to be a Qb. If it were up to me I would be moving the pocket 75% of the time rather than straight back.

I’m not talking about a full roll out. Just a bit to the right or left. If the play called for a roll right and they had a blitz set up Kyler could audible to roll left. I also think this would prevent defenses simply setting up to contain him in the pocket like the Rams do so well.
 

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