Game of Thrones (HBO)

[Chaplin]

I have not read the books and this show has been pretty consistent with twists and turns. I don't consider it predictable. Also, budget can drive writing decisions. For example, something major they want to include now requires filler to get to the next scene. They might have a large budget but it's not unlimited. I am sure they make decisions all the time on where to spend the money. I totally agree with the above take that it's easier to write a book because you can come up with anything. A TV show? Not as easy.

The quality of the show IMO has not fallen off a cliff. It's been up and down and from several people I know that have read the books, they predicted that because of the source material (books 4 &5) the show would also suffer. I heard that over and over from book fans who told me it was going to happen. I guess my expectations were tempered based on what I was being told. Therefore, the show has not disappointed.

Are their filler episodes? Sure. However, I am still going to argue that a filler episode of this show is still 90% better then half the crud on TV. The HODOR stuff was awesome and from what I have been told much better than how they covered it in the book.

Agreed. In fact, it come easier for the showrunners now to come up with the continuations and ends of these stories because they DON'T have the crutch that the books have been.

Having Martin so involved has been good and bad, IMO, and you're seeing why now. I actually think this season has been great so far--a much bigger mix of good and evil than we've ever seen on this show, leading to some great contrasts.

Sure, there are still problems--mainly Arya, who went from one of the most loved storylines to one of the most hated and anything in Dorne--but all in all, the show has been masterful in its execution. Stout complains about the writing--and yet, the show does a terrific job of integrating at least 11 stories into this series without any confusion about what story you are watching. Hate on the writing all you want, but that is not easy in any medium.

Spoiler

1-Jon and Sansa
2-Daenarys and the Dothraki
3-Tyrion/Varys in Mereen
4-Dorne
5-Kings Landing (Lannisters vs. High Sparrow)
6-Iron Islands
7-Winterfell
8-Sam and Gilly
9-Bran and the White Walkers
10-Arya
11-Littlefinger and the Knights of the Vale

 

[Dback Jon]

Spoiler

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[TJ]

I've already answered your Hodor question--I did not, and I enjoyed it. Sadly, 'not all stories are predictable' is an incredibly low bar, allowing that indeed most of the stories ARE predicable. The past two episodes have been better at this--Khaleesi's bit in four and a bunch more in five--but episodes one through three were mostly forgettable, most of episode four was forgettable, and half of the best episode in half a season, episode five, was forgettable. That's just not good enough for me.You and I just vastly disagree about them doing a much better job, as I feel season 5 was bad, and season 6 is even worse.

I don't want them to wrap it up this season--as if that was remotely possible, given the story's progression--but I'm starting to get the feeling they want to milk it for maybe up to ten seasons, and that would be too long. I don't know. I'm grasping for answers as to why the quality has fallen off a cliff, and I'm speculating.

Season 5 was not good, but I have a hard time buying the notion that 6 is worse. They're doing a much better job advancing stories and providing more stimulating action. We had to wait until Episode 8 last season for anything of substance. This season has been somewhat of a renaissance.

 

[jf-08]

Spoiler

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[Stout]

I'll grant that the writers have managed to keep from confusing the viewers with the multiple story lines, which is an accomplishment in itself. If we're holding that up as the shining beacon of writing for a show, however, well, the bar is set waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too low.

As for Hodor, it was impossible to handle it better than the books because

Spoiler

the books haven't gotten there yet.

I mean, those who still think it's a great show are entitled to think that, as it's their opinion, and they're entitled to think I'm simply overly critical, but here's the problem: Why would someone who loved this show and raved about it as much as I did for four seasons suddenly stop liking it?

 

[TJ]

I'll grant that the writers have managed to keep from confusing the viewers with the multiple story lines, which is an accomplishment in itself. If we're holding that up as the shining beacon of writing for a show, however, well, the bar is set waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too low.



As for Hodor, it was impossible to handle it better than the books because

Spoiler

the books haven't gotten there yet.

I mean, those who still think it's a great show are entitled to think that, as it's their opinion, and they're entitled to think I'm simply overly critical, but here's the problem: Why would someone who loved this show and raved about it as much as I did for four seasons suddenly stop liking it?

You not liking the series is only your opinion, but last Sunday's episode was the 2nd most watched of the entire series, so people are still tuning in despite your outlook. If you don't like it, well, no one is forcing you to watch.

 

[Stout]

You not liking the series is only your opinion, but last Sunday's episode was the 2nd most watched of the entire series, so people are still tuning in despite your outlook. If you don't like it, well, no one is forcing you to watch.

I'm giving it to the end of the season. I didn't buy season 5, but figured I'd give season 6 a chance to get back to the show's former greatness. It's only fair to finish out the season. Episode 5 was half-brilliant, and episode 4 had a few really good bits. I'm hoping it's gaining a bit of steam.

Here we go with the 'it's popular, so it's automatically good' argument, the argument that has zero merit. The Transformer movies have made a crap ton of money at the box office. Will you claim those are great movies? It's so watched because it's a water cooler show like TWD. It's the 'cool' thing right now.

Can you honestly tell me that season 5 and 6 have been anywhere near the quality of seasons 1-4?

 

[Chaplin]

I'm giving it to the end of the season. I didn't buy season 5, but figured I'd give season 6 a chance to get back to the show's former greatness. It's only fair to finish out the season. Episode 5 was half-brilliant, and episode 4 had a few really good bits. I'm hoping it's gaining a bit of steam.

Here we go with the 'it's popular, so it's automatically good' argument, the argument that has zero merit. The Transformer movies have made a crap ton of money at the box office. Will you claim those are great movies? It's so watched because it's a water cooler show like TWD. It's the 'cool' thing right now.

Can you honestly tell me that season 5 and 6 have been anywhere near the quality of seasons 1-4?

Season 5 wasn't great, but season 6 is shaping up very nicely. And "bad" Game of Thrones is still better than 85% of what's out there.

Just curious Stout, but what are your credentials for being such a strong evaluator of writing? Are you a writer? How did you come up with your scale of what constitutes bad writing vs. good writing?

We all know Cheesebeef is a professional writer, but we haven't heard nearly the vitriol out of him that we hear out of you. Just curious.

 

[oaken1]

No doubt books 1-3 are far better than books 4-5. The problem I and a lot of others are having with the show don't have to do with what you're talking about. Budgetary constraints have nothing to do with writing quality. Does a need to keep a show in budget mean you have to, for instance, write eye-rollingly predictable scenes? Like, literally, 3/4 of your material can be guessed on the nose by the audience? Budget wasn't a problem earlier in the series. They did a great job spending their money wisely in the earlier seasons while keeping a high-quality show going--while keeping one of the best shows out there going. So why has the show quality fallen off a cliff? Because of writing, not budgeting.

Part of the problem might be HBO and/or W+B insisting on a bunch of extra seasons to stretch out the money train. You bring up legit complaints about books 4 and 5, and in certain instances (like Tyrion's journey to Mereen) the show rightly sped things up. The problem is, they're also stretching certain things out--a LOT. Maybe the problem is they're gunning for too many seasons, thus stretching out plot lines that shouldn't be stretched out so far, and so diluting the quality of the show? It's a thought.

I write a little bit, and if I had to guess....I would guess that they are trying to bring all of the stories into synch via timescale...so the players can be who they need to be when they need to be them at the end game.

I disagree with most of you regarding the Arya storyline....she has been progressing,....slowly but surely she has gotten better with the staff fighting,...all the while depicting a long and hopeless ordeal which she is enduring.....and I am certain her most recent victim was chosen intentionally.

 

[oaken1]

I'll grant that the writers have managed to keep from confusing the viewers with the multiple story lines, which is an accomplishment in itself. If we're holding that up as the shining beacon of writing for a show, however, well, the bar is set waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too low.

As for Hodor, it was impossible to handle it better than the books because

Spoiler

the books haven't gotten there yet.

I mean, those who still think it's a great show are entitled to think that, as it's their opinion, and they're entitled to think I'm simply overly critical, but here's the problem: Why would someone who loved this show and raved about it as much as I did for four seasons suddenly stop liking it?

short attention span?

 

[cardfaninfl]

Here we go with the 'it's popular, so it's automatically good' argument, the argument that has zero merit. The Transformer movies have made a crap ton of money at the box office. Will you claim those are great movies? It's so watched because it's a water cooler show like TWD. It's the 'cool' thing right now.

It's the "Emperor's New Clothes" syndrome. Everyone believes everyone else believes, therefore it must be true. Only way I can explain people stepping in a pile of Ho De Do, and saying it smells of roses or "It's gold, Jerry. Gold." And only a stupid child could possibly point out that it is just a fat man strutting around naked.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Season 5 wasn't great, but season 6 is shaping up very nicely. And "bad" Game of Thrones is still better than 85% of what's out there.

Just curious Stout, but what are your credentials for being such a strong evaluator of writing? Are you a writer? How did you come up with your scale of what constitutes bad writing vs. good writing?

We all know Cheesebeef is a professional writer, but we haven't heard nearly the vitriol out of him that we hear out of you. Just curious.

I'll be honest, last season was a SUPER drag, but they did what every producer tells you is necessary: "Wow 'em in the end and they'll come back for more!" And they just absolutely NAILED the last three episodes last year.

This year? I still like the show and there's been good moments, REALLY good moments, but there's just a lot of scenes I don't care about.

As far as in scene writing? I still think it's pretty well written on the micro level. The macro story is where I think there's some issues.

 

[Chaplin]

I'll be honest, last season was a SUPER drag, but they did what every producer tells you is necessary: "Wow 'em in the end and they'll come back for more!" And they just absolutely NAILED the last three episodes last year.

This year? I still like the show and there's been good moments, REALLY good moments, but there's just a lot of scenes I don't care about.

As far as in scene writing? I still think it's pretty well written on the micro level. The macro story is where I think there's some issues.

Micro and macro! Haven't heard those terms in awhile...

I think you nail it pretty well with this post. And if you think about it, there are very few shows that get it right 100% of the time. Especially amongst current shows. I can only think of one currently airing show (that I watch) that is almost perfectly well-written, and that is Person of Interest.

But bad writing, or at least AVERAGE writing, doesn't make a show bad. I loved Lost, but there were a lot of times where the writing was bad. Still doesn't take away from the fact that it's my 2nd favorite show of all time.

 

[Covert Rain]

I'll grant that the writers have managed to keep from confusing the viewers with the multiple story lines, which is an accomplishment in itself. If we're holding that up as the shining beacon of writing for a show, however, well, the bar is set waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too low.

As for Hodor, it was impossible to handle it better than the books because

Spoiler

the books haven't gotten there yet.

I mean, those who still think it's a great show are entitled to think that, as it's their opinion, and they're entitled to think I'm simply overly critical, but here's the problem: Why would someone who loved this show and raved about it as much as I did for four seasons suddenly stop liking it?

I wasn't talking about the last scene exactly. I was talking about the explanation on how Hodor got to the way he is which is depicted in that scene. A friend of mine told me he was kicked in the head by a horse to get that way in the books?!? I can't confirm since I didn't read them.

Sorry, if that is true, the show handled it way way better. This version is way more interesting.

In terms of you loving it and now not? My experience is you have been pretty fickle on some of the stuff you watch from what I recall. Honestly, wasn't that shocked you all of the sudden feel it "fell of a cliff". You seem to give shows/movies an overcritical level of scrutiny compared to many others. Nothing wrong with that. As you stated everyone has their own opinion. For example, I tend to nitpick stuff I even love.

I just think you are way off base. I agree with Cheesebeef that the end of last season finished so damn strong and this season has been great.

 

[TJ]

Here we go with the 'it's popular, so it's automatically good' argument, the argument that has zero merit. The Transformer movies have made a crap ton of money at the box office. Will you claim those are great movies? It's so watched because it's a water cooler show like TWD. It's the 'cool' thing right now.

It has merit because why would people keep coming back if the series was as bad as you indicate? And comparing a movie's ratings is not like a TV show as you have 1-3 installments for an entire series; whereas, a TV show like GoT has 10 episodes per season multiplied by 6. In short, multiple opportunities to say "F it, this show sucks. I'm done." If the show had a sharp decline in viewership, then I would say the majority believe the show has fallen off, but since last Sunday's episode had the second highest rated viewership of the entire series (not even a finale or the penultimate episode of the season), that's enough evidence to prove that the show is doing something right and that people are pleased.

Can you honestly tell me that season 5 and 6 have been anywhere near the quality of seasons 1-4?

Look back at my earlier posts in this thread regarding season 5 for more detail, but in summary, I was less than impressed.

Season 6 has been great so far. Stories from season 5 are starting to come together and the plot is moving forward, unlike last year. Yes, some stories are expendable, but I think there's a long-term objective from Martin and the show's writers, and they're setting it up in their own special way. In other words, there's a reason for everything that's going on, and the writers have earned the benefit of the doubt.

 

[oaken1]

It has merit because why would people keep coming back if the series was as bad as you indicate? And comparing a movie's ratings is not like a TV show as you have 1-3 installments for an entire series; whereas, a TV show like GoT has 10 episodes per season multiplied by 6. In short, multiple opportunities to say "F it, this show sucks. I'm done." If the show had a sharp decline in viewership, then I would say the majority believe the show has fallen off, but since last Sunday's episode had the second highest rated viewership of the entire series (not even a finale or the penultimate episode of the season), that's enough evidence to prove that the show is doing something right and that people are pleased.




Look back at my earlier posts in this thread regarding season 5 for more detail, but in summary, I was less than impressed.

Season 6 has been great so far. Stories from season 5 are starting to come together and the plot is moving forward, unlike last year. Yes, some stories are expendable, but I think there's a long-term objective from Martin and the show's writers, and they're setting it up in their own special way. In other words, there's a reason for everything that's going on, and the writers have earned the benefit of the doubt.

I am thinking it will come to a head when Daenaryis and Jon snow have their armies outside kings landing...with the dead closing in behind them...and the gates will be opened for them because arya snuck in and finished off her list

 

[Covert Rain]

It has merit because why would people keep coming back if the series was as bad as you indicate? And comparing a movie's ratings is not like a TV show as you have 1-3 installments for an entire series; whereas, a TV show like GoT has 10 episodes per season multiplied by 6. In short, multiple opportunities to say "F it, this show sucks. I'm done." If the show had a sharp decline in viewership, then I would say the majority believe the show has fallen off, but since last Sunday's episode had the second highest rated viewership of the entire series (not even a finale or the penultimate episode of the season), that's enough evidence to prove that the show is doing something right and that people are pleased.

Agree. The inference that people are watching the show because it's the "in" or "cool" thing to do is a ridiculous notion. I am sure there might be a few individuals out there that might watch for that reason but I literally know of absolutely nobody that watches this show or any other show for that reason. I probably know 20 people or so that watch this show. Not one of them watches it just so they can have water cooler conversations.

When the show finally jumps the shark because of bad writing you will know it. I don't care how much people love a show. When people are done...they are done.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Micro and macro! Haven't heard those terms in awhile...

I think you nail it pretty well with this post. And if you think about it, there are very few shows that get it right 100% of the time. Especially amongst current shows. I can only think of one currently airing show (that I watch) that is almost perfectly well-written, and that is Person of Interest.

Necessary Roughness was perfect 100% of the time! Kidding... but I miss that show dearly. That was so in my wheelhouse!

The thing is... writing TV is FREAKING hard! Writing GREAT TV is near impossible. There's so many cooks in the kitchen, you're constantly battling so many things outside of your control AND when there's source material to adhere to, I can only assume it's that much harder when you encounter stuff in there that universally seems to suck according to book readers.

I'm still impressed just by the craft of the show if nothing else. And they're doing just enough to keep me pretty hooked. It's the only show I MUST watch night of because I know if I don't, something MASSIVE might be spoiled (like Joffrey's freaking death by Deadline Holywood!). That alone tells me how much I still dig the show, even if it's fallen from the highest heights of TV that it was through the first 4 seasons.

But bad writing, or at least AVERAGE writing, doesn't make a show bad. I loved Lost, but there were a lot of times where the writing was bad. Still doesn't take away from the fact that it's my 2nd favorite show of all time.

yeah... can't go there with you on Lost. Through three seasons it was FANTASTIC and peaked with that 3rd season finale mind-bender, but I thought it went SERIOUSLY downhill after that and that last season was just downright insulting.

 

[Covert Rain]

But bad writing, or at least AVERAGE writing, doesn't make a show bad. I loved Lost, but there were a lot of times where the writing was bad. Still doesn't take away from the fact that it's my 2nd favorite show of all time.

As long as it's not consistently bad I agree with you. Lost is definitely up there for me as well as one of the best shows ever. The last season was uneven and the ending pissed many people off. I still have issues with them not answering many questions. Overall though? One of the all time greats.

 

[Stout]

First of all, attention span is certainly not one of my problems I mean, not even close. Hell, I LIKED Watchmen

I'm a writer, yes, and I've sold short fiction, but I'm still trying to break into the professional markets. I do currently have a book under consideration with a senior editor at Tor, so I have confidence I'll eventually succeed. My problem with where the show has gone and with the writing is fickleness, predictability, authorial need, and...no need to go further.

You don't want to vacillate in your narrative, and you want to avoid regression of character development. The major case in point is Sansa Stark. Change the books to make her a major player with big-time smarts at the end of season 4? Hmm, okay. I wasn't ready for that yet, because she wasn't there yet in the books, but okay. Let's see where it goes. The writers should then have either had her slowly progress along that arc, or progress a bit, make mistakes, learn from them, and progress. Or something somewhere in the middle. What you cannot do is to make her a blithering idiot weakling like she was early in the series, thus completely undermining her rising arc in season 4. She spent a whole season not just as a weakling, and not just as flotsam and jetsam, but as an idiot making dumb decision after dumb decision. Why? This is bad writing.

The predictability is what I'm really fuming about this season. For instance, I watched episode 1 with a group of 8-10 people. We sat there and, for 3/4 of the scenes, we just started calling it out. "THIS is about to happen"--and then it would happen. "Oh, THIS is obviously going to happen now"--and it would. And it's been endemic to this whole season. It's especially discouraging because even season 5 didn't have this problem. It's very sudden and very bad in season 6. And, for a series that thrives on well-timed twists, this is a major problem. Now, I will give them the big Khaleesi scene. I KNEW what was going to happen, but I knew wrong lol

Authorial need is a big one for me, too. Don't throw things in there just because you, as a writer, NEED them to be in there. They must be organic to the narrative and not forced. Take EVERYTHING in the Iron Islands this season. W+B realized that they left that whole arc out for far too long and that they NEED this material, so rather than weave it into the story, it is force-fed quick like and in a hurry. The result is a clunky jumble of shoved-together stories that flat-out suck. Just because you, as a writer, NEED the info to be in there, doesn't mean you should basically just info-dump it on the reader/viewer. Info-dump expo is bad, very, very bad.

All of this doesn't even touch on their gross bungling of Dorne over the last two seasons, or the manifold other problems. Like I've said before, this last episode was the best of the season, and there were a few bright spots the episode before, so I have a slim ray of hope. It MIGHT find its stride, and the stronger episodes tend to be later in the season, so I have a bit of hope.

Cheese, you do make some great notes about writing for TV. I haven't done it and cannot even comprehend writing like that. No frickin' thank you

 

[Stout]

I wasn't talking about the last scene exactly. I was talking about the explanation on how Hodor got to the way he is which is depicted in that scene. A friend of mine told me he was kicked in the head by a horse to get that way in the books?!? I can't confirm since I didn't read them.

Sorry, if that is true, the show handled it way way better. This version is way more interesting.

Your friend either lied to you or remembers the books wrong

Spoiler

It hasn't been explained in the books. After the episode, GRRM acknowledged that this IS how it happened, though the explanation hasn't yet been read in book form.

 

[Covert Rain]

Your friend either lied to you or remembers the books wrong

Spoiler

It hasn't been explained in the books. After the episode, GRRM acknowledged that this IS how it happened, though the explanation hasn't yet been read in book form.

Maybe it was an assumption on his part. I will have to ask him again but I thought that's what he told me.

 

[oaken1]

Maybe it was an assumption on his part. I will have to ask him again but I thought that's what he told me.

being a stable boy it was a fairly logical conclusion...which I had made myself

 

[Stout]

Maybe it was an assumption on his part. I will have to ask him again but I thought that's what he told me.

No worries. Not a huge deal in the great scheme of things The main theory I had heard, for both the books and the show, was

Spoiler

That Hodor was a warg himself and, as a stable boy, warged into horses. When a horse he was warged into died in battle, that caused his Hodor-ism.

This theory turned out not to be the case in the show, and won't be the case in the books, per GRRM.

 

[Covert Rain]

I am thinking it will come to a head when Daenaryis and Jon snow have their armies outside kings landing...with the dead closing in behind them...and the gates will be opened for them because arya snuck in and finished off her list

The entire Arya Stark story went from being the most interesting to "get it over with already" part of GOT. The rest of the show has been fantastic. The problem is that it's just treading water. I don't for one second believe that even if she completes her training and serves the "many faced god" that she won't break off from them at some point to avenge her family.

They should just get on with that part of the story already. Because the rest seems to be moving along nicely. I so want Jon Snow and Sansa Stark to get some payback.

Is it Sunday yet?