Free Agency 2018

Polecat

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Think about it. If a guy happened to meet two girls, either of whom could become his life mate, would anyone gain if he juggles them indefinitely? I don't think so.

Unless the guy is still in junior high, then take your time and find out which one really is the best for you.
 

BC867

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I don't think it hurts to give them (Chriss & Bender) another year. This is a transition year with new coach and impact player (Ayton). That could change a few variables.
That is an interesting point. Another opinion would be that it would be in the best interest of the Coach, the impact player and the Suns, seeking to build a new image, to put them in the best position to get off on the right foot.

Or, to put it another way, take a strong stand that mediocrity no longer defines the Suns. I am hoping that attitude will work its way up to Sarver and McDonough, as well.
 

BC867

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Think about it. If a guy happened to meet two girls, either of whom could become his life mate, would anyone gain if he juggles them indefinitely? I don't think so.

Unless the guy is still in junior high, then take your time and find out which one really is the best for you.

Well .......... in that scenario, the guy might find himself alone when both of them get tired of being juggled. And he is left with no one.

If there is not a good reason for being proactive and making a decision, perhaps he should seek someone else and stop juggling the two.

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. But two wounded birds in the hand is worth nothing. :)
 

pokerface

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That is an interesting point. Another opinion would be that it would be in the best interest of the Coach, the impact player and the Suns, seeking to build a new image, to put them in the best position to get off on the right foot.

Or, to put it another way, take a strong stand that mediocrity no longer defines the Suns. I am hoping that attitude will work its way up to Sarver and McDonough, as well.

I think also it depends on how free agency/trades go as well.
 

Mainstreet

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Think about it. If a guy happened to meet two girls, either of whom could become his life mate, would anyone gain if he juggles them indefinitely? I don't think so.

Unless the guy is still in junior high, then take your time and find out which one really is the best for you.

I guess it depends how well one juggles. ;)

Your point is well taken.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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What about the concept of taking a stand, choosing one or the other (most opinions seem to be Bender) and ending the experiment of making them twins -- drafting them at the same time for the same position? So far, it hasn't produced any good results.

I suggest it comes down to two choices -- but not the ones the Suns have been pursuing.

Either choose one over the other at this time ... or decide that neither of them has shown that they can be the Power Forward to help take us to the next level.

Think about it. If a guy happened to meet two girls, either of whom could become his life mate, would anyone gain if he juggles them indefinitely? I don't think so.

It's time for the Suns to **** or get off the pot and make a damn decision. For their good and for the good of the players. Image is part of a team growing and indecision hurts image.

My personal opinion is move both of them and pursue a starting Power Forward who has shown more than being a disappointment. Even though the Suns, in their infinite wisdom, were mainly to blame instead of making an initial choice and instilling the confidence to help it work out.
So much impatience with youth.
 

AzStevenCal

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So much impatience with youth.

I agree. We have no business giving up on high draft picks that aren't even 21 yet. Unless there's an attitude problem it makes little sense to give up on either of them while they're still on their first contract.

But BC is not the only one suggesting we should not be simultaneously developing two players at the same position. And maybe they're right about that but I still don't know what position either of those two are best suited for (if any).
 

Hoop Head

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Too bad we can't call a mulligan on the Chriss trade and get Bogdan and Skal back from the Kings. I know another player was involved but they can keep them for their troubles.
 

BC867

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I agree. We have no business giving up on high draft picks that aren't even 21 yet. Unless there's an attitude problem it makes little sense to give up on either of them while they're still on their first contract.

But BC is not the only one suggesting we should not be simultaneously developing two players at the same position. And maybe they're right about that but I still don't know what position either of those two are best suited for (if any).
Which is why I added, "My personal opinion is move both of them and pursue a starting Power Forward who has shown more than being a disappointment. Even though the Suns, in their infinite wisdom, were mainly to blame instead of making an initial choice and instilling the confidence to help it work out."

Do you think, Steve, that either player has shown hope of being a solid Power Forward in the future? Whether it is attitude or passiveness. 'Too many negatives.

Why would an Option 3 not be the best decision if the Suns could do better? Prior to drawing the #1 pick, that would not have been a consideration. But now, with three solid players on the roster and horizon, PF and PG candidates should be chosen with the goal of a starting lineup -- I'm thinking of how to say this -- with the goal of a starting lineup who will grow as a group of five working their way toward being a team of excellence.

I know we're not used to thinking that way. But, hey, we have the #1 pick. This is not our fathers' Suns. :)
 

Hoop Head

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I'm fine with keeping one of them, maybe they develop and maybe they don't, but on their rookie contracts they aren't making too much to be a backup. We do need depth in our frontcourt and moving both would only make that need greater. Bender probably has more value in a backup role because he can hit shots from outside and also doesn't seem to have an issue with coming off the bench like Chriss does. Bender can play some Center as well as PF, which helps make him more valuable to the Suns also. If we can sign a PF to start we can use Bender to backup that PF and Ayton. Bender could be our 1st big off the bench and slide over to PF to play with Chandler also when both Ayton and our starting PF sit at the same time.

Watson ruined Chriss, IMO, by throwing him out there as our starting PF just 7 or 8 games into his career. Chriss didn't earn that job, Dudley was just a terrible fit and it was obvious he wasn't a starting PF in the NBA. Dudley couldn't even pretend to be a PF outside of his interview with McD to get resigned by the Suns so we were left in a difficult spot that season but promoting Chriss wasn't the best course of action. When Triano sat him he seemed to have issues playing as a reserve and had even said as much a few times when he was interviewed. Didn't help his case that he was out of shape also but that was beside the point then.
 

AzStevenCal

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Which is why I added, "My personal opinion is move both of them and pursue a starting Power Forward who has shown more than being a disappointment. Even though the Suns, in their infinite wisdom, were mainly to blame instead of making an initial choice and instilling the confidence to help it work out."

Do you think, Steve, that either player has shown hope of being a solid Power Forward in the future? Whether it is attitude or passiveness. 'Too many negatives.

Why would an Option 3 not be the best decision if the Suns could do better? Prior to drawing the #1 pick, that would not have been a consideration. But now, with three solid players on the roster and horizon, PF and PG candidates should be chosen with the goal of a starting lineup -- I'm thinking of how to say this -- with the goal of a starting lineup who will grow as a group of five working their way toward being a team of excellence.

I know we're not used to thinking that way. But, hey, we have the #1 pick. This is not our fathers' Suns. :)

Again, they are still just 20 years old. Many of the players in this draft are younger than them. They have no real trade value so they aren't going to get us a decent power forward which means we'll have to spend assets to make it happen. I'm not against that if we can find a good option (I don't know of any) but even still, I see no reason to jettison either player just yet.

And while they've both been disappointments, they have each displayed potential to be at least role players if/when they mature. I wouldn't bet on either one but I like our chances of getting at least one player out of the two in a few years.
 

Phrazbit

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IMO, landing the top pick and Ayton allows us more patience with Bender and Chriss. If we were looking at drafting a guard or winger, then we'd probably be hopeful to stabilize our front court in another way.

Assuming we're taking Ayton, Bender or Chriss reaching their potential is more of a luxury than a necessity. I think Ayton is going to be, barring injury, a borderline all-star, at worst and more likely a genuine superstar.

To really evaluate what we need to contend I hope we get a stabilizing presence at PG. It doesn't need to be a star, it can be something like McConnell has been for Philly, just a guy who doesn't turn the ball over, who can hit a open look and will pass to an open guy. Between Van Fleet, Teodosic and some of the draft options, I think we have a realistic chance of finding that type of player without blowing our wad.

But... I would blow a lot of wad to jump up and get Young.
 

Hoop Head

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I'm less concerned about getting a star PG than I've been in a while only because if you look at a list of NBA champions from the last 20-30 years, how many of those teams had All-Star PG's? Detroit, maybe counts, but it wasn't Billups who won them their title. Parker in San Antonio? He wasn't their difference maker either although he did steal a finals MVP from Duncan. Curry? Who has been outplayed by all other Golden State starters? You don't need an All-Star PG to win titles in the NBA. Most teams that win titles don't have them. The Warriors are really the only anomaly there and it's not because Curry is a great playmaker but a fantastic player. I don't think Knight or Payton will lead us to a title but we have as good of a chance at a title with one of them as anyone else. It's Booker, Jackson, and Ayton that will need to lead us somewhere and the job of our PG is to get the ball to those 3, hit his open looks, and play decent D.
 

Phrazbit

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I'm less concerned about getting a star PG than I've been in a while only because if you look at a list of NBA champions from the last 20-30 years, how many of those teams had All-Star PG's? Detroit, maybe counts, but it wasn't Billups who won them their title. Parker in San Antonio? He wasn't their difference maker either although he did steal a finals MVP from Duncan. Curry? Who has been outplayed by all other Golden State starters? You don't need an All-Star PG to win titles in the NBA. Most teams that win titles don't have them. The Warriors are really the only anomaly there and it's not because Curry is a great playmaker but a fantastic player. I don't think Knight or Payton will lead us to a title but we have as good of a chance at a title with one of them as anyone else. It's Booker, Jackson, and Ayton that will need to lead us somewhere and the job of our PG is to get the ball to those 3, hit his open looks, and play decent D.

IMO, it's about having good shooters, willing passers and guys who buy into team defense.

Basically every title winning team as far I go back has had an all-star at either point guard, or a guy who essentially filled the ball dominating, creation role of a PG while slotted elsewhere (like LeBron, Wade or Jordan). If you want to find a championship team without that type of player, they are few and far between... you've got the 2010 Mavericks, then you've got to go back to the 1994 Rockets... and prior to that, maybe the 1980s Celtics.

Moral of the story, IMO, it's easier to win without a superstar big man than it is without a superstar PG/creator. The Warriors, Cavs, Heat and Jordan's Bulls all won titles without superstar big men.

Still taking Ayton though.
 

overseascardfan

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I thought I heard that first from Gambo but regardless, I had heard it. IIRC, whoever said it also implied that Chriss would be the odd one out. But then he started playing better as he finally got into shape so maybe things have changed.
Gambo has been wrong a lot lately but he mentioned a couple of months ago he didn’t see any scenario of Chriss being on the roster next year, even if he looked good the last 2 months (he didn’t btw). The problem is Chriss showed promise his rookie year because his boy Big Earl coddled him. When Watson was canned there was no more free pass for Chriss and he struggled whether it was to get back at PHX for letting his boy go or just because he is not the player we hope he becomes is the question. I doubt the light ever comes on for him so if you have the opportunity to upgrade the PF spot this offseason you do it instead of waiting for a development that most likely isn’t going to happen.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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I'm less concerned about getting a star PG than I've been in a while only because if you look at a list of NBA champions from the last 20-30 years, how many of those teams had All-Star PG's? Detroit, maybe counts, but it wasn't Billups who won them their title. Parker in San Antonio? He wasn't their difference maker either although he did steal a finals MVP from Duncan. Curry? Who has been outplayed by all other Golden State starters? You don't need an All-Star PG to win titles in the NBA. Most teams that win titles don't have them. The Warriors are really the only anomaly there and it's not because Curry is a great playmaker but a fantastic player. I don't think Knight or Payton will lead us to a title but we have as good of a chance at a title with one of them as anyone else. It's Booker, Jackson, and Ayton that will need to lead us somewhere and the job of our PG is to get the ball to those 3, hit his open looks, and play decent D.
I love that your premise is that you don’t need an all star point guard to win championships and then immediately name three all star point guards that won championships. And didn’t even mention kyrie.
 

Hoop Head

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I love that your premise is that you don’t need an all star point guard to win championships and then immediately name three all star point guards that won championships. And didn’t even mention kyrie.

Ok, 3 that proved to be the exception to that, over the last 20+ years. I named the outliers, that's it. I didn't mention Kyrie because he's not what got the Cavs to the finals. They've been there 4 years in a row, he played in 2 of those 4. Does that really deserve mention? Lebron can drag anyone to the Finals, look at this year, how many PG's did the Cavs have? Jose Calderon, George Hill, the corpses of Derrick Rose and IT for a couple of weeks?

Did the Heat have an All-Star PG? How bout the Mavericks? The Lakers, the Celtics? The Lebron-less Heat with Wade and Shaq?



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NBA_champions
 

elindholm

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Gambo has been wrong a lot lately but he mentioned a couple of months ago he didn’t see any scenario of Chriss being on the roster next year, even if he looked good the last 2 months (he didn’t btw).

Chriss's per-game numbers after the All-Star Break last season:

9.7p on .461 shooting (in spite of too many threes, at .291), 6.5r, 1.0a, 1.0b, 0.7s, 1.7to, 2.5pf, 21.8 min

Bender's:

7.2p on .377 shooting (mainly from three, at 0.340), 6.1r, 2.3a, 0.8b, 0.3s, 1.7to, 2.4pf, 30.3 min

I'll grant that neither looked good, but the narrative that Bender has the inside track on Chriss needs to stop. Bender may have the better attitude, and the uptick in his assist numbers is encouraging, but the bottom line is that he's still woefully unproductive. The seven-foot water boy is no closer to being an NBA PF than Chriss is.
 

ColdPickleNachos

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Chriss's per-game numbers after the All-Star Break last season:

9.7p on .461 shooting (in spite of too many threes, at .291), 6.5r, 1.0a, 1.0b, 0.7s, 1.7to, 2.5pf, 21.8 min

Bender's:

7.2p on .377 shooting (mainly from three, at 0.340), 6.1r, 2.3a, 0.8b, 0.3s, 1.7to, 2.4pf, 30.3 min

I'll grant that neither looked good, but the narrative that Bender has the inside track on Chriss needs to stop. Bender may have the better attitude, and the uptick in his assist numbers is encouraging, but the bottom line is that he's still woefully unproductive. The seven-foot water boy is no closer to being an NBA PF than Chriss is.

Also, Chriss wasn't singled out on John Oliver's Last Week Tonight as proof that Suns games make people sad.

5:17-6:24 :)

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Cheesebeef

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Also, Chriss wasn't singled out on John Oliver's Last Week Tonight as proof that Suns games make people sad.

5:17-6:24 :)

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I'm enjoying all the Sun burst moments in the media for the squad, for good or bad after all these years.
 

Chaplin

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I'm enjoying all the Sun burst moments in the media for the squad, for good or bad after all these years.
Me too, and I thought it wasn't that bad of an insult. I love John Oliver, so it's nice that he didn't completely eviscerate the Suns. :)
 

Cheesebeef

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Me too, and I thought it wasn't that bad of an insult. I love John Oliver, so it's nice that he didn't completely eviscerate the Suns. :)

yup. playful ribbing.
 

Raze

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I'm less concerned about getting a star PG than I've been in a while only because if you look at a list of NBA champions from the last 20-30 years, how many of those teams had All-Star PG's? Detroit, maybe counts, but it wasn't Billups who won them their title. Parker in San Antonio? He wasn't their difference maker either although he did steal a finals MVP from Duncan. Curry? Who has been outplayed by all other Golden State starters? You don't need an All-Star PG to win titles in the NBA. Most teams that win titles don't have them. The Warriors are really the only anomaly there and it's not because Curry is a great playmaker but a fantastic player. I don't think Knight or Payton will lead us to a title but we have as good of a chance at a title with one of them as anyone else. It's Booker, Jackson, and Ayton that will need to lead us somewhere and the job of our PG is to get the ball to those 3, hit his open looks, and play decent D.

This is spot on. In the last two eras, great PGs are good for two things:

Stabilizing a team
Winning regular season games

Kidd, KJ, Nash, Price, Tim Hardaway, Paul, Stockton...

None of them won anything (Kidd's doesn't count). And yet they were dominant regular season players who made their team mates look better.

The only great PGs who won:

Magic - Had Worthy and Kareem
Steph - Had Klay, Green, and Durant
Chauncey - He was very good at the time but had a crazy good defensive team
Isiah Thomas - Insanely good scoring PG with a physical defensive team
Kyrie - Had Lebron

Only Chauncey and Isiah won without a legit star to help. Kudos to them.

The Suns need a PG to stabilize the team. Book, JJ, and Ayton can take care of the championship.
 

AzStevenCal

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This is spot on. In the last two eras, great PGs are good for two things:

Stabilizing a team
Winning regular season games

Kidd, KJ, Nash, Price, Tim Hardaway, Paul, Stockton...

None of them won anything (Kidd's doesn't count). And yet they were dominant regular season players who made their team mates look better.

The only great PGs who won:

Magic - Had Worthy and Kareem
Steph - Had Klay, Green, and Durant
Chauncey - He was very good at the time but had a crazy good defensive team
Isiah Thomas - Insanely good scoring PG with a physical defensive team
Kyrie - Had Lebron

Only Chauncey and Isiah won without a legit star to help. Kudos to them.

The Suns need a PG to stabilize the team. Book, JJ, and Ayton can take care of the championship.

The league has changed in very significant ways since the days of Magic, Isiah, Billups or even Nash. Historical facts such as these have little relevance to today's game IMO.
 

Hoop Head

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The league has changed in very significant ways since the days of Magic, Isiah, Billups or even Nash. Historical facts such as these have little relevance to today's game IMO.

And I doubt they change that much though. Yes, you need someone who can handle the ball and hit shots but Booker can be that guy. We don't need an All-Star PG to contend for a title. Curry isn't what many would consider an "ideal PG" for the Warriors, it's Draymond who does the majority of playmaking for them. Their own PF averages more than 1.5 more assists per game than their PG. Draymond Green is not a Point Forward like Lebron either. The Warriors are an odd Superteam that's style will not be replicated to win elsewhere unless you see another team able to get 2 recent MVP's to join up with 2 other All-Stars and they're able to pay and keep them all happy.
 
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