For the David Stern defenders:

carrrnuttt

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Eat your hearts out:
http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070723/SPORTS/707230329
NBA knew of zebra's gambling all season
By New York Daily News
July 23, 2007

West Chester, Pa. — The NBA sicced a private investigator on disgraced referee Tim Donaghy more than a year ago, but then let him work games all season long anyway, friends and neighbors said yesterday.
Officials had the investigator question neighbors and friends of Donaghy about what they knew about his gambling habits — especially his penchant for the Borgata in Atlantic City.

"(The private investigator) asked, 'Does he gamble?' " said Kit Anstey, 60, a real estate agent in West Chester, Pa. "I said, 'Yes.' "
Anstey told the investigator — who said she worked for a local firm hired by the NBA — that Donaghy bet on golf games, neighborhood poker games and at an Atlantic City casino.

The prober never asked Anstey whether Donaghy bet on pro basketball games.

I doubt, if the NBA did know of the FBI investigation, that they'd try to overlap it with their own private one. This means that even before the FBI went to Stern, they had an idea about the man, yet still consider him one of their "top" referees, considering he's reffed playoff games the last 2 seasons.

Also, what inferences do you guys think can be made from the last sentence? The NBA investigating one of its own referees, yet blatantly avoiding to ask questions about its own games?

More ammo against that cornholio: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=expertexplainsNBAbets
ESPN.com: So explain then, how a referee could control the outcome of a game so that he or associates of his could win a bet?

BL: Totally with the fouls he calls. If he has fixed the total and has a number he's thinking of, he can get the team in the bonus earlier in the quarter. Let's say he wants a final score where both teams tally more than 205 points and he needs 59 points in the fourth quarter to make that happen. If he puts both teams in the penalty with 8:00 to go and every foul is a free throw, it's not too hard to have a 60-point quarter.

ESPN.com: So what do you think, given your experience, might have happened with Tim Donaghy?

BL: You see a lot of calls in the NBA, "Hey -- he didn't even touch him." But he's [under suspicion] because they will go back and watch every game he officiated, know the spread, know the totals, they'll watch the fourth quarter and they'll know exactly what games he [allegedly] fixed. One hundred percent, no questions asked, they'll know exactly.
(My feelings exactly - yet Stern's "system" can't catch the same things? - carrrnuttt)

They just have to look at the fourth quarter. That's where you'd be able to tell. I'm telling you -- it would have to be the total, not the winners or losers. You can't dictate a side, especially in the NBA. He couldn't take that chance. If someone gets injured or doesn't show up or is having a terrible night or whatever, you can't do it. But manipulating the total you can control from the very tip. If you need an over, a referee can dictate a high- or low-scoring game just by how he's calling it. It's going to come out.

ESPN.com: Given your expertise in watching and wagering on games, what influence does a referee or official have in the gambling outcome?

BL: If he has action on the game and wants something in particular to happen, I'd say 75 percent. I've been asked for years if games could be fixed. And I always told people not by players. Because the guys in the key positions who could get something done, your quarterbacks and running backs, are making millions and aren't going to risk it all to help some friend make $100,000. An official, though, could do it. In the NFL, there's a task force that on Monday reviews every critical call that came anywhere near the point spread. I don't believe that's ever been done in the NBA.

Yeah, great "secret system" Stern has, aye?
 

az1965

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Commissioner's culpability

By Adrian Wojnarowski, Yahoo! Sports
July 22, 2007

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LAS VEGAS – So the commissioner comes down out of his Olympic Tower office this week for a midtown Manhattan press conference where assuredly he'll purse his lips, raise his index finger and insist how he'll make sure this Tim Donaghy nightmare never, ever happens again to the National Basketball Association.

Only, the more that comes out on Donaghy's past, on his spiral into an FBI mafia sting, the more you wonder about the competence of the commissioner's league to police anything. Here's the thing: If the NBA once did bring Donaghy to New York with concerns about his gambling, as the ref's hometown Philadelphia Inquirer reported, then Stern and his staff were enablers in an apparent rogue ref becoming vulnerable to the mob. The Inquirer's unnamed source says that the league had no reason to believe he was betting on basketball games or point shaving, so they let him return to work.

To think that the league would give a pass to a referee immersed in gambling is beyond belief – never mind one with the violent and irrational behavior that is now surfacing about Donaghy. Even if the league's collective bargaining agreement protected his job under these circumstances, you'd have to believe the NBA would've gone on full alert to monitor Donaghy's activities.

And even if the league had no idea about any of this, if it never called him in, how could some friends and associates be so aware of his gambling problems but miss the tentacles of NBA security? Before Stern starts spinning his story, he needs to be prepared to tell everyone what the league knew about Donaghy's life, his activities, and when it knew it.

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Sooner than later, Stern and his underlings need to be accountable for this scandal. Until the FBI makes its arrests, until the Feds lay out the case against Donaghy and his mob co-conspirators, no one can be sure that he wasn't blowing a dirty whistle in Game 3 of the Suns-Spurs series in the Western Conference semifinals. Go back to that game on May 12, see Donaghy's work and your stomach sinks. Perhaps the Feds know precisely which of the apparent 10 to 20 games were tainted across these past two seasons, or perhaps, they're counting on Donaghy and the mob to give them up.

Until further notice, the de facto championship series between San Antonio and Phoenix is tantamount to tainted.

Donaghy made one of the worst calls of the playoffs (a phantom, delayed foul on Manu Ginobili in a key late third-quarter run that awarded the Spurs three free throws), and he was part of an officiating crew that sent Suns star Amare Stoudemire to the bench with foul trouble, leaving him available for only 21 minutes in the game. Beyond that, there were plenty of missed calls, and dubious whistles. That game hangs over the league like an anvil now.

San Antonio was giving four points on the betting line and won 108-101. Those three Ginobili free throws pushed the Spurs to a six-point lead late in the third, and Phoenix never recovered. As it turns out, that is the last game Donaghy will ever officiate in the NBA.

Looking back, you wonder how that end didn't come sooner for Donaghy. But then again, the league always seemed to be cutting breaks to its refs, forever fostering a sense of entitlement. One of Michael Jordan's women targeted official Eddie Rush as the matchmaker who introduced her to him. Bob Delaney had real-life NBA stars appearing at his summer referees academy in Florida, a favor that you would think a player would realistically figure could curry him favor later.

So yes, when Donaghy saw that he could survive charges of terrorizing neighbors and chasing a mailman down the street in his car while making wild threats, he probably started out figuring that a few bets on the golf course with buddies, and then, a few on, say, football games, couldn't come back to hurt him. Maybe the league called him on that gambling, and still, he survived again.

Listen, people aren't perfect. They're flawed. They make mistakes. No one is asking an official to live an unblemished existence. But is it too much to ask that they don't put themselves in positions where there could be the appearance of impropriety?

Perhaps the talent pool of quality officials made the league less likely to cast those considered competent aside. "If the NBA was charted on the refs it's bringing into the league, you'd see a bunch of two-star-rated recruits," an NBA coach told me last season. "I haven't seen many blue chippers coming through the door. If they were a college program, they'd get fired for bringing in all these bad classes."

For the longest time, the NBA had suffered crises of credibility with its officials. Much of the public, including people within the league, believed the games were controlled on some levels, that officials on the floor carried out agendas beyond making the right calls. The refs have been seen as league pawns so that big-market teams could stay alive in the playoffs for television purposes, or used to keep superstars on the floor. There have long been conspiracy theories and that's so much of the reason the NBA will struggle to overcome this scandal. Truth be told, everyone wanted to believe there was a Tim Donaghy out there.

And always, Stern delivered a smug dismissal, challenging you to bring him proof. Those are wild accusations, he would say. Bring me evidence. Now, Stern has lost the moral authority to talk that way ever again. His arrogance about the league's officials always bothered people, and now, it comes back to haunt him.

This isn't the time for defiance out of the commissioner, nor cocksure promises about the future that he can't keep anyway. For the good of the league now, and maybe for his own ultimate survival, he needs to deliver a humbled concession that the NBA could've done more to stop Tim Donaghy. He's the CEO, the emperor of the sport. Above all else, Stern needs to say that, "This one's on me."
 
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YouJustGotSUNSD

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Stern's press conference today should consist of:

  • A) an apology
  • 2) the award of The People's Champions to the Suns
  • D) his resignation
 

sly fly

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Stern needs to apologize to the fans. Admit he made a giant mistake. And, resign.

No need for a direct apology to PHX. I don't want one. Just resign, you condescending jerk.
 

sunsfn

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Is there anybody reading this that really thinks Stern is going to resign?

I do not think he will.
 

azirish

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I'm curious. Exactly who are these alledged "Stern Defenders"? On a Suns board? I don't think so.
 

YouJustGotSUNSD

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in regards to how hard it will be when they are going to look at calls/non calls/questionable calls

"going to be very difficult, but we are going to do our best, but when you bet on a game, you lose the benefit of the doubt"


Benefit of the doubt ftw!
 
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carrrnuttt

carrrnuttt

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I'm curious. Exactly who are these alledged "Stern Defenders"? On a Suns board? I don't think so.

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showthread.php?t=93614&page=8

Not necessarily "Stern defenders" in a broad sense, but more of "defending him in this regard".

There's just situations where the man that's paid the most in an organization should get the blame (not including players - the NBA doesn't pay them), and this situation is one of them.
 

YouJustGotSUNSD

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So youre not talking to stern defenders, but more directly at Ryanwb

If thats the case, its not really time well spent...
 
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carrrnuttt

carrrnuttt

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So youre not talking to stern defenders, but more directly at Ryanwb

If thats the case, its not really time well spent...

Ah, but mon chéri, there was more than one person in that thread who shared a similar statement/sentiment as the aforementioned Ryanwb. I also hold that there are more that feel that Stern is absolved of guilt in this matter.

I am addressing such persons, and/or sentiments in a singular thread, rather than having to send a PM to multiple people about it, or replying multiple times with my also singular sentiment in multiple threads, as your post would suggest.

Now. What's a bigger waste of time?

Wait. Was it time well spent berating me about how I spent my time? [Travolta]What a conundrum![/Travolta]
 

Gaddabout

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If I understood Ryan's points, I think they were salient.

Just like the notion of an unbiased journalist, there's no such thing as a referee that doesn't influence the game. Just by being there and being in the way, they're influencing the game. As long as three limited human bodies (greatly limited compared to the athletes with which they're asked to keep up) with fallible human perception are required to be on the court, there's literally no way to have a totally impartial referee crew. Even great referees influence the flow of the game. It's noticeable in Suns games that the more out-of-shape refs tend to blow the whistle after extended action just to catch their breath. This happens less often in the playoffs because the best referees tend to be in great shape.

Neither should anyone expect Stern to be critical of the referee crew. Yes, Stern's job is to maintain confidence in the product, but that's impossible if he joins the skeptics and cynics in their thrashing of the NBA's reputation. He represents the Office of Commissioner, and as such I would not expect him to swallow the poison pill based on what we know so far.
 

azirish

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If I understood Ryan's points, I think they were salient.

Just like the notion of an unbiased journalist, there's no such thing as a referee that doesn't influence the game. Just by being there and being in the way, they're influencing the game. As long as three limited human bodies (greatly limited compared to the athletes with which they're asked to keep up) with fallible human perception are required to be on the court, there's literally no way to have a totally impartial referee crew. Even great referees influence the flow of the game. It's noticeable in Suns games that the more out-of-shape refs tend to blow the whistle after extended action just to catch their breath. This happens less often in the playoffs because the best referees tend to be in great shape.

Neither should anyone expect Stern to be critical of the referee crew. Yes, Stern's job is to maintain confidence in the product, but that's impossible if he joins the skeptics and cynics in their thrashing of the NBA's reputation. He represents the Office of Commissioner, and as such I would not expect him to swallow the poison pill based on what we know so far.

I'm sure this is true, but at some point irrelevant. If the refs cannot keep the bad calls to a minimum, then either the rules need to be changed or the referees need to be changed.
 

Gaddabout

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I'm sure this is true, but at some point irrelevant. If the refs cannot keep the bad calls to a minimum, then either the rules need to be changed or the referees need to be changed.

It would be easier revamping the auto industry. The referee's union is very powerful and resistant to change. Being a long-time referee is better than being a tenured professor at a prestigious university. It is virtually impossible to be fired short of criminal conduct.

It's also very hard to find good referees because they don't have many opportunities to gain experience before they're pushed into live action. There's only so much video you can pour over with a rookie ref before you have to throw them out there and let them learn from their mistakes. Considering the demands of the jobs and the literal poverty required to accept before making it to the NBA, the small number of people signing up limit the potential of finding qualified candidates.
 

azirish

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It would be easier revamping the auto industry. The referee's union is very powerful and resistant to change. Being a long-time referee is better than being a tenured professor at a prestigious university. It is virtually impossible to be fired short of criminal conduct.

It's also very hard to find good referees because they don't have many opportunities to gain experience before they're pushed into live action. There's only so much video you can pour over with a rookie ref before you have to throw them out there and let them learn from their mistakes. Considering the demands of the jobs and the literal poverty required to accept before making it to the NBA, the small number of people signing up limit the potential of finding qualified candidates.

If I'm not missing something, the NBA has player salaries of well over $1.5 billion. I don't know how many refs they have, but I would doubt that all the refs combined are getting more than $10 million which would mean 0.6% of player salaries. Talk about unwise economy, this is a classic example.
 

Gaddabout

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If I'm not missing something, the NBA has player salaries of well over $1.5 billion. I don't know how many refs they have, but I would doubt that all the refs combined are getting more than $10 million which would mean 0.6% of player salaries. Talk about unwise economy, this is a classic example.

Wealth is, as always, relative, but I know of no poor NBA refs. They are well-compensated even for the entertainment industry. If they're doing their job correctly, they have no impact on the popularity of the product. If they're doing their job poorly, or if they're bringing shame to the game, the can only have a negative impact.

I think their salaries are more than enough to discourage illicit behavior. Low- to mid-six figures is still considered upper middle class in this country, and the top end could only be considered wealthy.

I personally know three referees, and have been to the house of a ref who is well known among Suns fans for his controversial playoff calls in the early 90s. He lives here. Or at least he used to. Trust me when I say he was not hurting for cash.
 

nowagimp

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If I'm not missing something, the NBA has player salaries of well over $1.5 billion. I don't know how many refs they have, but I would doubt that all the refs combined are getting more than $10 million which would mean 0.6% of player salaries. Talk about unwise economy, this is a classic example.


And yet these refs make nearly as much as the president of the united states who presides over a multi trillion dollar budget. Sorry george, these guys get paid plenty. If they dont like it, I'm sure they can find more refs who cant see a kicked ball right in front of their faces(remember the elston kicked ball in bavetas mug in the spurs series) that would like to make 260K a year(donaghys earnings).
 

mjb21aztd

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only stern defenders that are out their are all spurs fans.....
 
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