First and Second Apron Restrictions

Mainstreet

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Yea for the players its bad but will probably help the league.

It just happened at the worst possible time. The first time in history the suns have an owner willing to spend unlimited money....man this team has some bad luck.

The new CBA rules were known when Mat Ishbia made the Durant trade.
 

Covert Rain

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The new CBA rules were known when Mat Ishbia made the Durant trade.
Not when he first entered negotiations to buy the team. Sarver started looking for a buyer in September of 2022. I don't think the exact details were revealed until after that?
 
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Yeah, I can't see the NBA players association agreeing to this just because older stars were mad about the money younger guys were getting. It makes no sense. This is an owners rule book to protect owners from themselves. The owners just can't help themselves but spend money. The players have benefitted from the owners weakness for decades now.
 

Covert Rain

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Yeah, I can't see the NBA players association agreeing to this just because older stars were mad about the money younger guys were getting. It makes no sense. This is an owners rule book to protect owners from themselves. The owners just can't help themselves but spend money. The players have benefitted from the owners weakness for decades now.
They are trying to prevent making it easy to create super teams. That does give smaller markets a fighting chance. I think it's good for the league even though it completely sucks for the timing of the Suns getting a billionaire owner.
 
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They are trying to prevent making it easy to create super teams. That does give smaller markets a fighting chance. I think it's good for the league even though it completely sucks for the timing of the Suns getting a billionaire owner.
I get it from an owner's viewpoint. I am just saying I don't see where limiting salaries for players is in the players best interest. Maybe it's a moot point with the number of teams going over the aprons. Just seems like there's more benefit for the owner's than the players.
 

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Not when he first entered negotiations to buy the team. Sarver started looking for a buyer in September of 2022. I don't think the exact details were revealed until after that?

As I recall, most of the details of the new CBA were known when the Suns traded for Durant which contributed to a lot of heated discussions. Further details emerged later, but I think the basic structure was already known. This made the timing of the trade even worse.
 

Covert Rain

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As I recall, most of the details of the new CBA were known when the Suns traded for Durant which contributed to a lot of heated discussions. Further details emerged later, but I think the basic structure was already known. This made the timing of the trade even worse.
I looked it up. It appears the details were not published until 2023 and were still being finalized. So, I doubt anybody really knew the full breathe of the rules back in 2022. Either way, I still don't blame him for trying something. It's a shame that the NBA passed this when they did or I bet we would be seeing the highest payroll in the NBA.
 

Mainstreet

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I looked it up. It appears the details were not published until 2023 and were still being finalized. So, I doubt anybody really knew the full breathe of the rules back in 2022.

The new CBA rules may not have been published, but the content of ongoing negotiations were available.

It's the obligation of the owner and GM to know what is happening around the league. The details were not hidden.
 

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Not when he first entered negotiations to buy the team. Sarver started looking for a buyer in September of 2022. I don't think the exact details were revealed until after that?

Why would that matter? It's not like the sale was contingent on some prearranged trade.

When Ishbia got control of the team he pushed for the trade and he knew about the CBA, in either scenario.

The notion that the conditions of the new CBA were a surprise to any owner has always been silly. The franchises approved it themselves.
 
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I looked it up. It appears the details were not published until 2023 and were still being finalized. So, I doubt anybody really knew the full breathe of the rules back in 2022. Either way, I still don't blame him for trying something. It's a shame that the NBA passed this when they did or I bet we would be seeing the highest payroll in the NBA.
I am just guessing, but based on reading between the lines, it seemed they knew the framework, but Ishbia figured they could push the envelope anyway because he figured it was only money. I am not sure they realized how restricted they would be in building the team after the second apron kicked in. Ironically, if we would have had guys with MORE salary when we made the KD trade, we would be in better position to move the deck chairs.
 
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Why would that matter? It's not like the sale was contingent on some prearranged trade.

When Ishbia got control of the team he pushed for the trade and he knew about the CBA, in either scenario.

The notion that the conditions of the new CBA were a surprise to any owner has always been silly. The franchises approved it themselves.
The only thing I can say is it was approved under Sarver technically. However JJ probably knew.
 

Covert Rain

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I am just guessing, but based on reading between the lines, it seemed they knew the framework, but Ishbia figured they could push the envelope anyway because he figured it was only money. I am not sure they realized how restricted they would be in building the team after the second apron kicked in. Ironically, if we would have had guys with MORE salary when we made the KD trade, we would be in better position to move the deck chairs.
Right. I am sure the framework was out there but they were negotiating the details. I seriously doubt a potential owner was privy to those details which was the point.
 

Mainstreet

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Never hurts to have a refresher on the new CBA.

These rules make it so difficult for the Suns to make moves.

It still baffles me why the players agreed to it.

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How much are the Suns over the tax apron?
IDK. I think by Nurkic's salary. Technically we would barely fall under the second apron if we didn't have Nurkic, but we would have to take salary back, which would just move us back over again. KD has 2 more years of contract left, assuming we don't extend his deal another year, which he is eligible for now. Beal's and Booker's contracts end the same season. So when KD leaves we go under the second apron big time. Probably paying luxury tax again, but that could go away a year or two later if we let Beal walk. Who knows what players we add or extend because we have their Bird rights in the meantime?
 

95pro

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IDK. I think by Nurkic's salary. Technically we would barely fall under the second apron if we didn't have Nurkic, but we would have to take salary back, which would just move us back over again. KD has 2 more years of contract left, assuming we don't extend his deal another year, which he is eligible for now. Beal's and Booker's contracts end the same season. So when KD leaves we go under the second apron big time. Probably paying luxury tax again, but that could go away a year or two later if we let Beal walk. Who knows what players we add or extend because we have their Bird rights in the meantime?
I don’t think we can go under and then back over.
 

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Covert Rain

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Is it possible for the big three to give up some of their contracts so the team could squeeze under the 2nd apron?

I know lebron took less at LA but that was a new contract. I guessing existing contracts aren’t in play?
I found this: "Renegotiations are amendments to a contract that increase (and only increase) a player's salary during the contract's existing term."
 

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I found this: "Renegotiations are amendments to a contract that increase (and only increase) a player's salary during the contract's existing term."
Has that EVER happened in the history of the NBA? I don't recall if it ever has and it's been what amounts to be an unofficial rule by the Union to never do that.
 

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59. Can existing contracts be renegotiated?​


A contract for four or more seasons can be renegotiated after the third anniversary of its signing, extension, or previous renegotiation (if the previous negotiation increased any season's salary by more than 5%). Contracts for fewer than four seasons cannot be renegotiated. A contract cannot be renegotiated between March 1 and June 30 of any year.

Only teams under the cap can renegotiate a contract, and the salary in the then-current season can be increased only to the extent that the team has room under the cap (and cannot increase the player's salary beyond the maximum salary). A renegotiation can only be used to provide a salary increase -- players can't take a "pay cut" in order to create more cap room for the team.
 

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