Everything wrong with Kyler vs Seattle Part II - Revenge of the checkdown

BritCard

ASFN Icon
Joined
Jan 10, 2020
Posts
14,357
Reaction score
22,241
Location
UK
It's very obvious to anyone with eyes that something is wrong with Kyler.

His USP as an NFL QB through his first 3 years has been as an accurate downfield thrower. Someone with great tight window accuracy that can hurt you downfield and if you try to take that away he will hurt you with his legs underneath.

That seems to have gone and intermediate throws he would make with ease just aren't an option anymore because he doesn't have patience in the pocket.

This first play is the 3rd drive of the game early in Q2 with the score 10-7. The 1st drive we saw live went about as good as it could be. Best opening drive of the season. Drive 2 was 3 and out after Prices bad snap so we start with drive 3. It's 2nd and 9 after a run that went nowhere on 1st down.

The first thing I want you to notice is Kyler has a good pocket. Protection is good and he has more time than he takes to throw this pass. So this isn't a protection issue.

The second thing to look at is how many receivers are open when Kyler hitches. McBride had a fantastic get off and is streaking down the bottom of the screen for a big gain. Hopkins is coming open on the post from the slot if he pump fakes to Ertz he has a big gain to Nuk. And if he waits a second longer Moore will be open on a dig.

But watch Kyler eyes. They never leave Ertz. He stares him down from the snap. There are no progressions. He decided pre snap this was going to Ertz for 6 yards and instead of a 1st down and a 20 yard gain it's 3rd and 4. The football is a hot potato that he wants to get out as quickly as possible.

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media



This is the next play and I really don't know what is happening here with Kyler.

Again, he has plenty of time. From the snap to him scrambling he has 4 seconds.

Pause this at 5 seconds. Nuk is open for a 1st down. Ertz is open for almost certainly a first down. Rondale is open for a large gain. The only player not open on this play is Robbie Anderson.

Why doesn't he make the simple pass to Hopkins?

As it plays out he held the ball so long the defender is astounded and with his jaw gaping stumbles into Rondale to draw a penalty.

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media



The next play on this drive was the screen to Conner. And while it's not Kyler related it got a lot of negativity in the game thread so I thought I would show it.

For me it's a well designed play and the opportunity was there for a big gain but Price is late getting out to block Woolen. Price is supposed to be leading Conner but is late getting there.


xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media



On the next play we have a short pass to Nuk that was designed that way leaving us 3rd and 4. Then on 3rd we get a false start putting us in 3rd and 9 (the false start was on Price also. Both tackles started and Price snapped late).

Then they false start again. I think also on Price because everyone moves except Price. Looks like Price just has the timing all wrong and is struggling with the silent snaps. The whole line looks pissed off with him.

Which brings us to this 3rd and 19.

This might be one of the dumbest things I've ever seen Kyler do.

He has all the time in the world. It's 3rd and 19 and you throw to Conner to not even get back to the original LOS?

You have Ertz on and out route for 1st down. You throw that and worse case it's incomplete out of bounds.

You have Rondale wide open with his speed and ability in space with 7 yards to get the 1st down.

You have Anderson coming open on a crossing route.

You could tuck it and run to the left with only 1 man to beat.

The absolute worst option is Conner. And that's the end of the drive. I'll add more as I get time.

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media
 
OP
OP
BritCard

BritCard

ASFN Icon
Joined
Jan 10, 2020
Posts
14,357
Reaction score
22,241
Location
UK
After the drive above the Seahawks have a short drive and fail to convert on 4th down. We get the ball back quickly.

This is the first play of the drive. An actual rollout out of under center to pass, and it works well. Kyler has a tonne of time. Just very late on the throw.

Ertz is open forever and screaming for the ball but just comes too late. I've recorded both angles here so you can see.

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media



The 2nd down play is a designed Kyler run with Conner leading which takes us to 3rd and 4. It should have got more but a bad play by Ford let Shelby Harris get off his block and tackle Kyler.

This is the resulting 3rd down play.

Hopkins is clearly open on the dig but Kyler throws the ball behind him allowing Woolen to make a play. Hopkins reaction says it all. Again both angles here so you can see clearly.

Pause at 22 seconds and you can clearly see how far behind Hopkins it is.

Drive over.

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media
 

kerouac9

Klowned by Keim
Joined
Feb 14, 2003
Posts
31,361
Reaction score
13,168
Location
Gilbert, AZ
The 2nd down play is a designed Kyler run with Conner leading which takes us to 3rd and 4. It should have got more but a bad play by Ford let Shelby Harris get off his block and tackle Kyler.

This is the resulting 3rd down play.

Hopkins is clearly open on the dig but Kyler throws the ball behind him allowing Woolen to make a play. Hopkins reaction says it all. Again both angles here so you can see clearly.

Pause at 22 seconds and you can clearly see how far behind Hopkins it is.

Drive over.

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

Also just no respect for Anderson on the opposite side of the field on the fly route.

Really hard to believe how much scheming would make up for the lack of fundamentals here.
 

MaoTosiFanClub

The problem
Joined
Oct 7, 2003
Posts
11,652
Reaction score
2,392
Location
Scottsdale, AZ
Brit doesn't understand NFL passing windows. 80% of the players he says are "open" aren't unless some insanely low percentage perfect throw is executed. There's a couple plays left on the field by Kyler there but not nearly to the degree of what is being presented. There are certainly no easy pitch and catch type plays that you see in well-designed and executed offenses.

Also what I noticed is that Seattle never rushes more than 4 and how deep their LB's play. Zero threat of a running game and 2nd/3rd and longs don't make any quarterbacks life easy, like starting an at-bat down no balls and one strike. The entire offense is an absolute mess - Kyler is rattled, zero run game by our RB's, top heavy receiving depth chart with no depth, and terrible offensive line play.
 

MaoTosiFanClub

The problem
Joined
Oct 7, 2003
Posts
11,652
Reaction score
2,392
Location
Scottsdale, AZ
Also just no respect for Anderson on the opposite side of the field on the fly route.

Really hard to believe how much scheming would make up for the lack of fundamentals here.
That ball to hit Hop in stride would have to go to the left hash, and when ball was released the LB covering Ertz was directly in said thorwing window with eyes on QB. Likely a batted ball or INT without insane touch there. Yes there was 1 on 1 with Anderson up top but with that guy obviously probably a low percentage play.

Also note again interior pressure rushing 4 and deep LB drops.
 

Chopper0080

2021 - Prove It
Joined
May 15, 2002
Posts
22,542
Reaction score
22,687
Location
Colorado
Brit doesn't understand NFL passing windows. 80% of the players he says are "open" aren't unless some insanely low percentage perfect throw is executed. There's a couple plays left on the field by Kyler there but not nearly to the degree of what is being presented. There are certainly no easy pitch and catch type plays that you see in well-designed and executed offenses.

Also what I noticed is that Seattle never rushes more than 4 and how deep their LB's play. Zero threat of a running game and 2nd/3rd and longs don't make any quarterbacks life easy, like starting an at-bat down no balls and one strike. The entire offense is an absolute mess - Kyler is rattled, zero run game by our RB's, top heavy receiving depth chart with no depth, and terrible offensive line play.
I only was able to get through the first rep but this is where I disagree with you. In the first video, Kyler should see press pre-snap and understand that it looks like cover 2 or cover 4. That leaves two areas to attack, the gap between the CB and the S outside and the deep middle over the LB and between the S. He immediately checks down to Ertz despite the CB on McBride missing the jam which is the obvious place to deliver the ball. It is even on the left side of the field so it is within his visual progression.

So, this highlights a problem with Kyler. Makes up his mind before the ball is snapped and does not confirm post snap which is very low level QB play. Basically he has no ability to take advantage of errors by the defense because he isn't looking for them.
 

MaoTosiFanClub

The problem
Joined
Oct 7, 2003
Posts
11,652
Reaction score
2,392
Location
Scottsdale, AZ
I only was able to get through the first rep but this is where I disagree with you. In the first video, Kyler should see press pre-snap and understand that it looks like cover 2 or cover 4. That leaves two areas to attack, the gap between the CB and the S outside and the deep middle over the LB and between the S. He immediately checks down to Ertz despite the CB on McBride missing the jam which is the obvious place to deliver the ball. It is even on the left side of the field so it is within his visual progression.

So, this highlights a problem with Kyler. Makes up his mind before the ball is snapped and does not confirm post snap which is very low level QB play.
Yeah the McBride one was the most obvious miss.

The Ertz play-action also probably should've been out sooner but the play design was bad too. Hop should've been a go or post not a hitch to keep safety deep until Kyler had time to finish the bootleg and get into throwing position. Ertz' window when open required across the body throw without feet set. There are guys in the NFL who make that play but not more than a handful. Something to keep safety honest would've been a 'pitch and catch' type play to Ertz for 10. Or if it's a Hop go and safety eyes Ertz underneat Kyler has all day for a 1 on 1 deep ball to Hopkins
 
Last edited:
OP
OP
BritCard

BritCard

ASFN Icon
Joined
Jan 10, 2020
Posts
14,357
Reaction score
22,241
Location
UK
The next drive (Drive 5) is late in Q2 and it starts well enough. From the 5 yard line Kyler finds Rondale on a crossing route for a nice gain of 10+. He then picks up 20+ on a run that gets us up around the 40 and then a couple of bad plays put us into 3rd and 14.

The bad plays were a screen poorly blocked by Hopkins that blows up before Anderson can move and Kyler overthrowing on the run. Neither were on Kyler.

And then we get here...

Most will remember this play where Eno fights for the 1st down. We do get there and extend the drive. But look how many guys are open for big gains.

This is 2 minute drill stuff, not much time left in the half and we need to score. You will see Kliff screaming for the TO at the end of the play.

Firstly, Kyler has a tonne of time and he's looking downfield at the open guys. Hopkins is WIDE open. Anderson is WIDE open. Yes, there is a safety way over the top but any NFL caliber QB should be able to place the ball where only those guys can get it. We have seen Kyler make these throws repeatedly in his career.

Even Ertz is a better option for the first down. He's right in front of Kyler with a tonne of space. We need to get into FG range and while we get lucky and Eno batles for the 1st it's the worst of 4 good option. It's like sleeping with Sporty Spice when you had your pick of the bunch.

Nuk should have been the pass.

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media



1st and 10 on the next play. Good pocket. Kyler has time.

If he just waits not even half a second Hopkins is splitting the safeties. Instead it's a 6 yard check down.

I don't mind the 6 yards to Rondale except in this situation where the clock is running out. There is 54 seconds left in the half here.

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media


The next play on 2nd down is well covered. It's the only play on 5 drives so far I can honestly say is well covered and Kyler throws it away.

On 3rd down Anderson drops the easy one which was an egregious drop.

Then on 4th down we get this.

No doubt here that Beachum does poorly and gets pushed back into Kyler. But this is the 5th drive and so far the O line has been fine. I haven't seen any of this yet, I'm sure there is more to come.

Fumble aside by biggest issue here is Nuk is open for the first down and could go out of bounds to stop the clock.

It's 4th down. It's Deandre Hopkins. He's the only player going to the sideline. This should be the first read and the ball should be out as Hopkins breaks.

End of half

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media
 
OP
OP
BritCard

BritCard

ASFN Icon
Joined
Jan 10, 2020
Posts
14,357
Reaction score
22,241
Location
UK
That ball to hit Hop in stride would have to go to the left hash, and when ball was released the LB covering Ertz was directly in said thorwing window with eyes on QB. Likely a batted ball or INT without insane touch there. Yes there was 1 on 1 with Anderson up top but with that guy obviously probably a low percentage play.

Also note again interior pressure rushing 4 and deep LB drops.

You're high.

The ball should be thrown down the hash marks. Unless the linebacker has 8ft arms it's nowhere near him.
 

jf-08

Reap what you sow
Administrator
Super Moderator
Supporting Member
Joined
May 15, 2002
Posts
21,295
Reaction score
11,110
Location
Chandler
It's very obvious to anyone with eyes that something is wrong with Kyler.

His USP as an NFL QB through his first 3 years has been as an accurate downfield thrower. Someone with great tight window accuracy that can hurt you downfield and if you try to take that away he will hurt you with his legs underneath.

That seems to have gone and intermediate throws he would make with ease just aren't an option anymore because he doesn't have patience in the pocket.

This first play is the 3rd drive of the game early in Q2 with the score 10-7. The 1st drive we saw live went about as good as it could be. Best opening drive of the season. Drive 2 was 3 and out after Prices bad snap so we start with drive 3. It's 2nd and 9 after a run that went nowhere on 1st down.

The first thing I want you to notice is Kyler has a good pocket. Protection is good and he has more time than he takes to throw this pass. So this isn't a protection issue.

The second thing to look at is how many receivers are open when Kyler hitches. McBride had a fantastic get off and is streaking down the bottom of the screen for a big gain. Hopkins is coming open on the post from the slot if he pump fakes to Ertz he has a big gain to Nuk. And if he waits a second longer Moore will be open on a dig.

But watch Kyler eyes. They never leave Ertz. He stares him down from the snap. There are no progressions. He decided pre snap this was going to Ertz for 6 yards and instead of a 1st down and a 20 yard gain it's 3rd and 4. The football is a hot potato that he wants to get out as quickly as possible.

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media



This is the next play and I really don't know what is happening here with Kyler.

Again, he has plenty of time. From the snap to him scrambling he has 4 seconds.

Pause this at 5 seconds. Nuk is open for a 1st down. Ertz is open for almost certainly a first down. Rondale is open for a large gain. The only player not open on this play is Robbie Anderson.

Why doesn't he make the simple pass to Hopkins?

As it plays out he held the ball so long the defender is astounded and with his jaw gaping stumbles into Rondale to draw a penalty.

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media



The next play on this drive was the screen to Conner. And while it's not Kyler related it got a lot of negativity in the game thread so I thought I would show it.

For me it's a well designed play and the opportunity was there for a big gain but Price is late getting out to block Woolen. Price is supposed to be leading Conner but is late getting there.


xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media



On the next play we have a short pass to Nuk that was designed that way leaving us 3rd and 4. Then on 3rd we get a false start putting us in 3rd and 9 (the false start was on Price also. Both tackles started and Price snapped late).

Then they false start again. I think also on Price because everyone moves except Price. Looks like Price just has the timing all wrong and is struggling with the silent snaps. The whole line looks pissed off with him.

Which brings us to this 3rd and 19.

This might be one of the dumbest things I've ever seen Kyler do.

He has all the time in the world. It's 3rd and 19 and you throw to Conner to not even get back to the original LOS?

You have Ertz on and out route for 1st down. You throw that and worse case it's incomplete out of bounds.

You have Rondale wide open with his speed and ability in space with 7 yards to get the 1st down.

You have Anderson coming open on a crossing route.

You could tuck it and run to the left with only 1 man to beat.

The absolute worst option is Conner. And that's the end of the drive. I'll add more as I get time.

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media
@BritCard ...STOP! Please for all that's good, stop. STOP MAKING SENSE!!!

It's all Kliff's fault, donchaknow!!!!!
 
OP
OP
BritCard

BritCard

ASFN Icon
Joined
Jan 10, 2020
Posts
14,357
Reaction score
22,241
Location
UK
Brit doesn't understand NFL passing windows. 80% of the players he says are "open" aren't unless some insanely low percentage perfect throw is executed. There's a couple plays left on the field by Kyler there but not nearly to the degree of what is being presented. There are certainly no easy pitch and catch type plays that you see in well-designed and executed offenses.

Also what I noticed is that Seattle never rushes more than 4 and how deep their LB's play. Zero threat of a running game and 2nd/3rd and longs don't make any quarterbacks life easy, like starting an at-bat down no balls and one strike. The entire offense is an absolute mess - Kyler is rattled, zero run game by our RB's, top heavy receiving depth chart with no depth, and terrible offensive line play.

Put the effort in or be quiet.

It's easy to say "He doesn't understand passing windows these are low percentage throws" when you can't even be bothered to be specific. You don't even have to leave the page.

A couple of plays. I nearly wet myself.

I'm only through the half and he's left about 120 yards on the field so far.
 

Dback Jon

Killer Snail
Moderator
Supporting Member
Joined
May 14, 2002
Posts
68,335
Reaction score
21,491
Location
Scottsdale
This lack of accountability in regards to the QB position is what got us here and it is so tired.
And that’s a ludicrous statement. Oh poor coaching porch rafting have more to do with it. Yes Kyler needs an attitude adjustment and needs to do a lot to improve his game but I think that his team would magically be a Super Bowl contender with a different quarterback’s is ridiculous
 

Dback Jon

Killer Snail
Moderator
Supporting Member
Joined
May 14, 2002
Posts
68,335
Reaction score
21,491
Location
Scottsdale
Brit doesn't understand NFL passing windows. 80% of the players he says are "open" aren't unless some insanely low percentage perfect throw is executed. There's a couple plays left on the field by Kyler there but not nearly to the degree of what is being presented. There are certainly no easy pitch and catch type plays that you see in well-designed and executed offenses.

Also what I noticed is that Seattle never rushes more than 4 and how deep their LB's play. Zero threat of a running game and 2nd/3rd and longs don't make any quarterbacks life easy, like starting an at-bat down no balls and one strike. The entire offense is an absolute mess - Kyler is rattled, zero run game by our RB's, top heavy receiving depth chart with no depth, and terrible offensive line play.
Excellent points
 
OP
OP
BritCard

BritCard

ASFN Icon
Joined
Jan 10, 2020
Posts
14,357
Reaction score
22,241
Location
UK
and with the trash O-line, never knowing his staff is going to go over his head , and trash play calling from an incompetent coach how can you blame him?

How is it trash play calling? There are always people open. You mean the 2-3 busted screens a game?

Do you think other teams don't have similar numbers of busted plays a game? Does Kliff have to call a perfect game for Kyler to try?

Do you think other QB's don't get pressure or don't have O line issues?

Kirk Cousins last 2 games he's had 31% pressure in both and sacked 5 times. In those 2 games he's thrown for 612 yards, 4 TDs and 1 INT and they won both. He has a 26% pressure rate on the season.

If everything was perfect he'd be great. But so would every other QB in the league.

Great QB's find a way. Great QB's being paid $45m a year should find a way or why are you paying them that money?
 

GoldGloveschmidt

ASFN Lifer
Joined
Aug 29, 2013
Posts
3,699
Reaction score
5,469
Brit doesn't understand NFL passing windows. 80% of the players he says are "open" aren't unless some insanely low percentage perfect throw is executed. There's a couple plays left on the field by Kyler there but not nearly to the degree of what is being presented. There are certainly no easy pitch and catch type plays that you see in well-designed and executed offenses.

Also what I noticed is that Seattle never rushes more than 4 and how deep their LB's play. Zero threat of a running game and 2nd/3rd and longs don't make any quarterbacks life easy, like starting an at-bat down no balls and one strike. The entire offense is an absolute mess - Kyler is rattled, zero run game by our RB's, top heavy receiving depth chart with no depth, and terrible offensive line play.

The "analysis" is at minimum good for a laugh. But thats about it. I especially like the horribly designed bootleg where Ertz's route somehow takes him to mid field instead of the sideline and Kyler is supposed to throw back across his body, over the pile of lineman, between 4 defenders to squeeze it in there while on the run. What a missed opportunity!
 

Dback Jon

Killer Snail
Moderator
Supporting Member
Joined
May 14, 2002
Posts
68,335
Reaction score
21,491
Location
Scottsdale
How is it trash play calling? There are always people open. You mean the 2-3 busted screens a game?

Do you think other teams don't have similar numbers of busted plays a game? Does Kliff have to call a perfect game for Kyler to try?

Do you think other QB's don't get pressure or don't have O line issues?

Kirk Cousins last 2 games he's had 31% pressure in both and sacked 5 times. In those 2 games he's thrown for 612 yards, 4 TDs and 1 INT and they won both. He has a 26% pressure rate on the season.

If everything was perfect he'd be great. But so would every other QB in the league.

Great QB's find a way. Great QB's being paid $45m a year should find a way or why are you paying them that money?
Your definition of wide-open is ridiculous. And yes they are trash playcalling because the place I’m not changed their poorly designed poorly executed by the entire team that goes to coaching.

In the lack of talent goes to the general manager.

Has Kyler regressed I’m not gonna say he hasn’t.

But to lay all the blame like you are on him on Kyler and pretend that Cliff is calling a great game shows a fundamental lack of understanding
 
OP
OP
BritCard

BritCard

ASFN Icon
Joined
Jan 10, 2020
Posts
14,357
Reaction score
22,241
Location
UK
I wish he would start making sense And learn with the definition of wide-open is

Put your money where your mouth is or be quiet. That goes for everyone.

If you are just going to say "You're wrong" without being bothered to point out specific plays and make your points in a mature and constructive manner and just going to assume you are lazy and don't know what you are talking about.
 

jf-08

Reap what you sow
Administrator
Super Moderator
Supporting Member
Joined
May 15, 2002
Posts
21,295
Reaction score
11,110
Location
Chandler
Your definition of wide-open is ridiculous. And yes they are trash playcalling because the place I’m not changed their poorly designed poorly executed by the entire team that goes to coaching.

In the lack of talent goes to the general manager.

Has Kyler regressed I’m not gonna say he hasn’t.

But to lay all the blame like you are on him on Kyler and pretend that Cliff is calling a great game shows a fundamental lack of understanding

@Dback Jon Answer ONE question, please:

How is Kyler doing throwing down the field this year with a clean pocket?
 

Staff online

Forum statistics

Threads
492,356
Posts
4,890,353
Members
6,172
Latest member
ccw24
Top