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Chopper0080

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My big issue is that if you pay Kirk 12 mil, I don't believe there is a world where he is able to outperform his deal. He is a limited player. He is not very consistent. He has as many "ugh" plays as he has "wow" plays and I don't know that I would ever trust him in key spots.

He had a prime opportunity to step up when Hopkins was out and I think most would agree that he didn't. I need more than that from a 12 mil player.
 

juza76

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My big issue is that if you pay Kirk 12 mil, I don't believe there is a world where he is able to outperform his deal. He is a limited player. He is not very consistent. He has as many "ugh" plays as he has "wow" plays and I don't know that I would ever trust him in key spots.

He had a prime opportunity to step up when Hopkins was out and I think most would agree that he didn't. I need more than that from a 12 mil player.
I never understood how he was so dynamic in college, getting yards after the catch and having fieid vision and being so different with the Cardinals
Another one preferring not getting hurt((
 
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slanidrac16

slanidrac16

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I just don't think this is at all realistic.

Mike Williams was the WR2 receiving leader this season with 1146 yards. (He's UFA this year actually and would really suit this team but likely cost too much)

Tee Higgins was next with 1091.

Then Mike Evans (Godwin had more targets and yards) with 1035.

Then Kirk with 982.

Christian Kirk was the 4th ranked WR2 in the league last year.

I'm not sure those here that think he is some kind of WR3 and not worth $12m have been watching what he's doing.
I don’t go by just stats. I go by the eyeball test and his impact. I’d say our opponents respect him but certainly don’t fear him.
 
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slanidrac16

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My big issue is that if you pay Kirk 12 mil, I don't believe there is a world where he is able to outperform his deal. He is a limited player. He is not very consistent. He has as many "ugh" plays as he has "wow" plays and I don't know that I would ever trust him in key spots.

He had a prime opportunity to step up when Hopkins was out and I think most would agree that he didn't. I need more than that from a 12 mil player.
This is EXACTLY my thought. I’d go as far as saying we just witnessed his ceiling this year.
 

overseascardfan

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Here would be my FA signings:

WR
JuJu Smith-Schuster
Cedrick Wilson
Retain Kirk

OG
Laken Tomlinson
Conner Williams

DL
Akeim Nicks

CB
Kevin King
Levi Wallace
 

BritCard

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My big issue is that if you pay Kirk 12 mil, I don't believe there is a world where he is able to outperform his deal. He is a limited player. He is not very consistent. He has as many "ugh" plays as he has "wow" plays and I don't know that I would ever trust him in key spots.

He had a prime opportunity to step up when Hopkins was out and I think most would agree that he didn't. I need more than that from a 12 mil player.

We paid Larry far more than this from 2012 onwards for less value.

$12m is 5.7% of the cap.

We paid Larry over over $14m per year in 2011 when he was 28 on a 7 year deal. From 28 to retiring at 37 this is what we paid him in cap %

201116.00%
201212.00%
20138.10%
20146.30%
20157.30%
201610.00%
20179.20%
20189.50%
20195.80%
20206.00%

Outside 2011 he only broke 1000 yards 3 times in the subsequent 9 seasons.

His best value was in 2017 when he had 1156 yards for 9.2% of the cap, or 1.25 yards per 0.1% of cap space.

If Kirk had 1000 yards at $12m (5.7%) it would be 1.75 yards per 0.1% of cap.

Kirk would offer far better value than any year of Fitz's last 9 years.

£12m is cheap in today's market for a WR2 capable of 1000 yards. I believe every team in the league would pay that.
 

BritCard

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I'd take a flyer on JuJu. He can absolutely thrive when he's not "the guy."

He's so good nobody wanted to pay him last year and he ended up taking a "**** it" deal to stay with the Steelers and Big Bens dead arm for $8m.
 

Stout

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He's so good nobody wanted to pay him last year and he ended up taking a "**** it" deal to stay with the Steelers and Big Bens dead arm for $8m.
I'm not saying he's perfect, nor that he's a guarantee. He suffered in FA from having to be "the guy" and not excelling in the #1 role, then decided against more money in KC for the prove it deal in the 'Burgh. Not a smart move, in retrospect, and his injury crushed his season (not to mention having a noodle-armed QB). For this reason, he'll be a bargain on the cheap for a couple years. Screw the prove it deal. Lock him down for a lower number, and if he isn't good enough, the cap hit will be low to cut him.
 

Crimson Warrior

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What's the temperature on the board for resigning Conner? Considering his production last year, don't we really have to? I mean, unless he's asking for 12 million a year or something.

I know he's not an every down back, but he was easily, easily, the most physical player on the offensive side of the ball, and was great in the red zone. Better receiver than we could have dared hoped for too.

He gives us both toughness and identity on offense. Besides Kyler, he was probably our offensive MVP. Have to find a way to resign him to a decent deal.
 

BritCard

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I'm not saying he's perfect, nor that he's a guarantee. He suffered in FA from having to be "the guy" and not excelling in the #1 role, then decided against more money in KC for the prove it deal in the 'Burgh. Not a smart move, in retrospect, and his injury crushed his season (not to mention having a noodle-armed QB). For this reason, he'll be a bargain on the cheap for a couple years. Screw the prove it deal. Lock him down for a lower number, and if he isn't good enough, the cap hit will be low to cut him.

I was partly kidding before. JuJu SHOULD command about $14-15m on the open market. That's his fair market rate considering his yardage before Ben's arm fell off.

Whether he will get that after missing most of last year I don't know. I'm guessing he might settle for some security and something like 3 years at $13m APY but I don't think he going to be cheap.

I don't know how the market is going to shake out. Cap is up a lot but the class is deep at WR. On the other hand very few WR are great in year 1.
 

BritCard

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What's the temperature on the board for resigning Conner? Considering his production last year, don't we really have to? I mean, unless he's asking for 12 million a year or something.

I know he's not an every down back, but he was easily, easily, the most physical player on the offensive side of the ball, and was great in the red zone. Better receiver than we could have dared hoped for too.

He gives us both toughness and identity on offense. Besides Kyler, he was probably our offensive MVP. Have to find a way to resign him to a decent deal.

I like him. Really good guy. Great in the locker room and more talented than given credit for.

At the same time, I think he's being over rated a little here. He made some great highlight reel plays that we all remember. But he also average 3.7 YPA.

Now, our O line isn't great, but it's the same one Edmonds had and he had 5.1 YPA.

If I had to keep either I would chose Edmonds. Yes Conner got a lot of TD's because we gave him the ball a lot inside the 5. I would expect any RB to get those TD's.
 

Stout

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What's the temperature on the board for resigning Conner? Considering his production last year, don't we really have to? I mean, unless he's asking for 12 million a year or something.

I know he's not an every down back, but he was easily, easily, the most physical player on the offensive side of the ball, and was great in the red zone. Better receiver than we could have dared hoped for too.

He gives us both toughness and identity on offense. Besides Kyler, he was probably our offensive MVP. Have to find a way to resign him to a decent deal.
I mean, I'd take him back, but you can't overpay for him. Some of my fears about him came true. His big value is as a short-yardage back and that isn't something that nets you a ton of $$$. Don't get me wrong, for a long stretch of the season he was very good, better than I thought he would be. And his injury problems hit later than I thought they would, but they did hit. Absolutely don't break the bank and keep it to a 1-year deal.
 

Stout

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I was partly kidding before. JuJu SHOULD command about $14-15m on the open market. That's his fair market rate considering his yardage before Ben's arm fell off.

Whether he will get that after missing most of last year I don't know. I'm guessing he might settle for some security and something like 3 years at $13m APY but I don't think he going to be cheap.

I don't know how the market is going to shake out. Cap is up a lot but the class is deep at WR. On the other hand very few WR are great in year 1.
Eh, offer 3 years at 10 but a nice signing bonus, and work from there. He certainly hasn't done enough to get a huge offer--not saying he won't get a big offer, though.
 

DVontel

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I mean, I'd take him back, but you can't overpay for him. Some of my fears about him came true. His big value is as a short-yardage back and that isn't something that nets you a ton of $$$. Don't get me wrong, for a long stretch of the season he was very good, better than I thought he would be. And his injury problems hit later than I thought they would, but they did hit. Absolutely don't break the bank and keep it to a 1-year deal.
Holding his “injury problems” against him isn’t fair. I think it’s unreasonable for a RB, especially for ones that been in the league for 3+ years, to play 17 straight games nowadays. Even the top RBs like Henry, Chubb, Kamara, CMC, Cook, Mixon, Hunt, etc have all missed games due to injury in that time span.

That being said, I’d rather keep Chase if there was a choice. He offers more than James.
 

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Eh, offer 3 years at 10 but a nice signing bonus, and work from there. He certainly hasn't done enough to get a huge offer--not saying he won't get a big offer, though.

He's not taking $10m for 3 years. He has a 1400 yard season and there are guys never made 1000 yards getting more. Kirk will be one of them.
 

TheCardFan

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He's so good nobody wanted to pay him last year and he ended up taking a "**** it" deal to stay with the Steelers and Big Bens dead arm for $8m.

Isn't that the same deal AJ Green got from us?

We are going to need a bargain again like AJ or Juju plus draft a WR early. You can't pay 20m to Hopkins and another 12-15m for a #2 with our roster situation.
 

TheCardFan

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That being said, I’d rather keep Chase if there was a choice. He offers more than James.

I would respectfully disagree. One of our biggest issues from 2020 was short yardage (3rd and 4th & short) and goal line. Conner blew that up in a good way. He is also very good in the passing game.

I just don't see the value Edmonds brings that can't easily be replaced.
 

BritCard

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I would respectfully disagree. One of our biggest issues from 2020 was short yardage (3rd and 4th & short) and goal line. Conner blew that up in a good way. He is also very good in the passing game.

I just don't see the value Edmonds brings that can't easily be replaced.

Short yardage is easy to replace with any big bodied RB. D'Onta Foreman can do that for you for close to vet min.

Edmonds had 5.1 YPC vs Conners 3.7. He can move around and play slot. He's good friends with Kyler.
 

TheCardFan

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Short yardage is easy to replace with any big bodied RB. D'Onta Foreman can do that for you for close to vet min.

Edmonds had 5.1 YPC vs Conners 3.7. He can move around and play slot. He's good friends with Kyler.

How many TD's did D'onta Foreman score (this year and in his career)? How many yards does he get on 3rd down and passing game (hint - they didn't use him much)?

I hear what your saying but we aren't just talking about some battering ram - there is a lot more value there.

Kyler can be friends with Edmonds on another team.
 

Crimson Warrior

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How many TD's did D'onta Foreman score (this year and in his career)? How many yards does he get on 3rd down and passing game (hint - they didn't use him much)?

I hear what your saying but we aren't just talking about some battering ram - there is a lot more value there.

Kyler can be friends with Edmonds on another team.

Plus I think Conner and Edmonds work great together, and provide a one-two punch that I don't ever recall seeing from our RBs before.

Also Conner is our "bully" on offense. Does D Foreman carry himself like that? Conner is the one that comes in a says "were running over your @ss, try to stop us". We need that.

This is all intangible stuff, I know. I don't want to make too big a deal about it, but I honestly think it makes Conner more valuable than just the 18 touchdowns (or how many ever) that he scored.

But I also agree with Stout and Britcard in that we can't sink too much money into a contract for him. His violent running style means that he's going to get banged up pretty much every year. You have to limit his touches.
 

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