Did I hear this right?

[Larry Schweikart]

On the Minny broadcast I thought they said/ran a stat that the Suns were about 2.5 points per game better without Ayton?

Just watching, there is literally no time I say, "Gee, if only Ayton were there, we would have gotten that bucket" or "blocked that shot."
The offense is different without him, but I think better: the shots come from Cam Johnson, Bridges, Booker, and to a lesser extent, Paul.

So far, if I had had my druthers, I would have kept McGee and let Ayton go; use the package money left over from Ayton and Jae Crowder
to work a deal. Now, for who? As of today, it seems the biggest glaring weakness is a solid star 6th man, someone like the old Vinny "the Microwave" with Detroit
or Butler with the old Heat. We have a 2nd team that struggles to score. But who is available? Dunno, and it's a moot point now.

 

[95pro]

On the Minny broadcast I thought they said/ran a stat that the Suns were about 2.5 points per game better without Ayton?

Just watching, there is literally no time I say, "Gee, if only Ayton were there, we would have gotten that bucket" or "blocked that shot."
The offense is different without him, but I think better: the shots come from Cam Johnson, Bridges, Booker, and to a lesser extent, Paul.

So far, if I had had my druthers, I would have kept McGee and let Ayton go; use the package money left over from Ayton and Jae Crowder
to work a deal. Now, for who? As of today, it seems the biggest glaring weakness is a solid star 6th man, someone like the old Vinny "the Microwave" with Detroit
or Butler with the old Heat. We have a 2nd team that struggles to score. But who is available? Dunno, and it's a moot point now.

It seems when he's out we never really miss him during the regular season, least i hardly do. Plenty of this talk in the Ayton thread already.

 

[Mainstreet]

On the Minny broadcast I thought they said/ran a stat that the Suns were about 2.5 points per game better without Ayton?

Just watching, there is literally no time I say, "Gee, if only Ayton were there, we would have gotten that bucket" or "blocked that shot."
The offense is different without him, but I think better: the shots come from Cam Johnson, Bridges, Booker, and to a lesser extent, Paul.

So far, if I had had my druthers, I would have kept McGee and let Ayton go; use the package money left over from Ayton and Jae Crowder
to work a deal. Now, for who? As of today, it seems the biggest glaring weakness is a solid star 6th man, someone like the old Vinny "the Microwave" with Detroit
or Butler with the old Heat. We have a 2nd team that struggles to score. But who is available? Dunno, and it's a moot point now.

It would have been a terrible move if the Suns had lost Ayton for nothing to the Pacers.

They can use him in trade later this season with his permission or next summer without his permission. You don't let assets walk for nothing. Ayton is a top 10 center in the NBA.

McGee is nowhere as good as Ayton.

 

[Dback Jon]

Ayton provides depth and defense that can't be replaced.

Team is better without McGee - he clogged the middle, wasn't an outside threat, and had no stamina. We are seeing the second team much more fluid because of that.

Suns team last year was middle of the road for bench points - 35.4 per game

So far this year:
Top Bench scorers in the NBA:

• NBA leaders
• Rookie leaders
• Bench players
• Triple-doubles
• Hispanic players
• Team stats

BENCH PLAYERS (SIXTH MEN) 2022-23 SEASON STATS LEADERS​

• POINTS​

  You must be registered for see images attach T. Hardaway Jr.DAL14.40
  Kevin Love CLE	11.67
  Cedi Osman CLE	11.50
  Rui Hachimura WAS	11.14
  Will Barton WAS	9.71
  Jock Landale PHX	9.57
  Cameron Payne PHX	8.86
  Precious Achiuwa TOR	8.43
  Torrey Craig PHX	5.43
  Landry Shamet PHX	5.40

4 of top 10 are Suns - just those 4 are almost 30 points per game.

Biz, Jock, Torrey and Damion are top 10 in rebounds.

Cam Payne leads in Assists, with Damion, Landry and Torrey top 10

Biz leads in blocks, Jock number 3

CamPayne leads in steals, Landry 2

Jock leads FG%

Torrey leads 3 point %

Jock number 2 in FT%

 

[Proximo]

On the Minny broadcast I thought they said/ran a stat that the Suns were about 2.5 points per game better without Ayton?

Just watching, there is literally no time I say, "Gee, if only Ayton were there, we would have gotten that bucket" or "blocked that shot."
The offense is different without him, but I think better: the shots come from Cam Johnson, Bridges, Booker, and to a lesser extent, Paul.

So far, if I had had my druthers, I would have kept McGee and let Ayton go; use the package money left over from Ayton and Jae Crowder
to work a deal. Now, for who? As of today, it seems the biggest glaring weakness is a solid star 6th man, someone like the old Vinny "the Microwave" with Detroit
or Butler with the old Heat. We have a 2nd team that struggles to score. But who is available? Dunno, and it's a moot point now.

It was 1.5 points, but that is a misleading stat. First off the sample size without him is much smaller and most of the games he missed last year were when the Suns were at their hottest. Remember Ayton was playing when CP was out for instance.

I don't agree with you, Suns are clearly better with Ayton, especially against teams that can guard Book and CP3 well.

 

[Proximo]

It would have been a terrible move if the Suns had lost Ayton for nothing to the Pacers.

They can use him in trade later this season with his permission or next summer without his permission. You don't let assets walk for nothing. Ayton is a top 10 center in the NBA.

McGee is nowhere as good as Ayton.

The Ayton hate is really out of control.

I get it, he's not as good as Luka, but he is a top 50 NBA player. McGee is a questionable top 200 player.

 

[Mainstreet]

The Ayton hate is really out of control.

I get it, he's not as good as Luka, but he is a top 50 NBA player. McGee is a questionable top 200 player.

As far as I can recall, this is the only thread where someone was willing to let Ayton walk for nothing.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

The Ayton hate is really out of control.

I get it, he's not as good as Luka, but he is a top 50 NBA player. McGee is a questionable top 200 player.

I don’t think anyone is saying they want Javale over Ayton. I think it’s they prefer Javale plus whatever they could’ve gotten for Ayton’s now big salary over Ayton.

Not my opinion. I’m still in the keep Ayton camp no matter how much he continues to drive me mad.

 

[Superbone]

Javale was fools gold and spotty. We’re much better off with Landale than him.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Javale was fools gold and spotty. We’re much better off with Landale than him.

I’m going to disagree until landale becomes at least a credible threat from 3. Right now he’s a lousy 3 point shooter who nonetheless keeps jacking up 3s. He’s better than I expected on both ends of the floor but a shade below what Javale gave us last year.

 

[Phrazbit]

I’m going to disagree until landale becomes at least a credible threat from 3. Right now he’s a lousy 3 point shooter who nonetheless keeps jacking up 3s. He’s better than I expected on both ends of the floor but a shade below what Javale gave us last year.

I think the bigger factor is that Jock can defend a perimeter switch, Javale couldn't do that. Javale is a great defender when the opposition has a true interior man for him to defend but he got torched when forced away from the rim.

Dallas is quickly learning that same lesson. Javale is playing significantly less minutes than Jock, and, while it's early yet, Javale's season high in minutes was the opener (a mere 14), he has quite literally seen less of the court with each passing game.

I like Javale, the guy cracks me up and he brings great energy in bursts, but he should be a purely situational player.

I think a large reason Cam Payne and Torrey Craig are playing like they did in 2020/21 is because the lane is opened up for them again. Javale and his defender are not blocking them from getting into the paint.

Another observance from inside the arena... I am just about willing to guarantee that Jock is going to be a better outside shooter in road games. The home crowd loves him and everytime he is given even a bit of space outside the noise rises, begging him to shoot. In road games I expect he will be far more selective.

 

[1tinsoldier]

i think the reason that sometimes the results aren't as good when Ayton is not on the floor is that we stop playing Suns ball
-- which is moving it for the best opportunity
we go into setting up Ayton mode and the other players stagnate

when our other centers are on the floor they get the ball when they create good opportunities, or else it goes to someone with a better opportunity

it's a difficult balancing act for the coach. I know everyone, including Ayton, feels that he should be more of a focal point, but we're a top assist team and we're best when we stick to that formula

i do, however, like Ayton's value and prefer him on the floor and staying on the floor longer. He just needs to adopt more of a Jock mentality (literally & figuratively). Stay aggressive and work for it.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I think the bigger factor is that Jock can defend a perimeter switch, Javale couldn't do that. Javale is a great defender when the opposition has a true interior man for him to defend but he got torched when forced away from the rim.

Dallas is quickly learning that same lesson. Javale is playing significantly less minutes than Jock, and, while it's early yet, Javale's season high in minutes was the opener (a mere 14), he has quite literally seen less of the court with each passing game.

I like Javale, the guy cracks me up and he brings great energy in bursts, but he should be a purely situational player.

I think a large reason Cam Payne and Torrey Craig are playing like they did in 2020/21 is because the lane is opened up for them again. Javale and his defender are not blocking them from getting into the paint.

Another observance from inside the arena... I am just about willing to guarantee that Jock is going to be a better outside shooter in road games. The home crowd loves him and everytime he is given even a bit of space outside the noise rises, begging him to shoot. In road games I expect he will be far more selective.

Hmm I’d buy the impact on Payne and Craig if I didn’t think their primary turnarounds thus far were due to their rediscovered three point shooting which has nothing to with a clogged lane. Payne has had a little more success going to the cup this season until the second half of the last game. And Craig hasn’t really been driving the hole. He’s cleaned up garbage, but so was Javale.

As for jock, he’s slightly better defending the perimeter but let’s not make him out to be a good defender, he’s not. As for his three point shot, again I’d give your hypothesis credence but for the fact he’s taking open shots for the most part. I’ve watched every game and other than a single shot in this last game where he shot over a close closeout every shot has been an open shot. These are shots that are created in the flow of the offense. These are shots that he is supposed to take, needs to take, if they come to him. But he’s shooting an absolutely lousy .105 on almost 3 shots per game. And it’s not like he was a good shooter before (.326 with San Antonio last season). Combine that with shooting sub .500 overall and 2 fewer rebounds than Javale and I don’t see any improvement, I see a downgrade.

 

[95pro]

i think the reason that sometimes the results aren't as good when Ayton is not on the floor is that we stop playing Suns ball
-- which is moving it for the best opportunity
we go into setting up Ayton mode and the other players stagnate

when our other centers are on the floor they get the ball when they create good opportunities, or else it goes to someone with a better opportunity

it's a difficult balancing act for the coach. I know everyone, including Ayton, feels that he should be more of a focal point, but we're a top assist team and we're best when we stick to that formula

i do, however, like Ayton's value and prefer him on the floor and staying on the floor longer. He just needs to adopt more of a Jock mentality (literally & figuratively). Stay aggressive and work for it.

Yes Ayton doesn't understand how to create passing lanes or opportunities to get the ball to himself. Other centers will wait back a bit allowing a passing lane to be created when penetration occurs, Ayton is constantly out of position for those types of opportunities. Ayton this season has become better at getting down to the low block while sealing off his man.

 

[Covert Rain]

I say so what. It's not that big a difference and defense is more important.